Should We Leave the EU?

[TheKnightWho]

A bank is a bank. I'm not espousing anything and I haven't noticed the infinite inflation! Banks create money out of thin air as the Bank of England and Prof Werner confirm. The BanK of England reports "the majority of money in the modern economy is created by commercial banks making loans", which could not be clearer. And that majority is 97%. The Bank of England prints the 3% remaining. Whether it's called M1,2,3 or 4 I've no idea.
No moving money from spenders to savers, just an accounting trick.

No. Not all banks are the same - your own link even says as much. Please read what I've written and the links I've given you, because the conclusions you're coming to are simply not supported by your own sources. Commercials banks do not 'create' money in the sense that you seem to think it means which is, as far as I can tell, conjuring money out of thin air which would - as I've already said - lead to an out of control money supply (read: out of control inflation).

Yes they can and did - where else did Barclays find the money to lend to its investors? When the Banks crashed their capital 'reserves' were between 1 & 3%. RBS turnover was larger than UK GDP!

Did you actually read the rest of that paragraph, or are you just cherrypicking without really understanding what's being said?

 

[LateThanNever]

No. Not all banks are the same - your own link even says as much. Please read what I've written and the links I've given you, because the conclusions you're coming to are simply not supported by your own sources. Commercials banks do not 'create' money in the sense that you seem to think it means which is, as far as I can tell, conjuring money out of thin air which would - as I've already said - lead to an out of control money supply (read: out of control inflation).



Did you actually read the rest of that paragraph, or are you just cherrypicking without really understanding what's being said?

I've read it all and the links.
I'm afraid your out of control money supply is precisely how the crash happened - though funny that inflation wasn't high.
There are Private Banks and Central Banks. UK Private Banks are exempted from the Client Money Rules so thus they issue money out of thin air when creating loans. The Central Banks print it (or spirit it into existance by agreement with the government as in Quantitative Easing).

I've read your links and can only conclude that you imagine that bank reserves are a lot more than they are - about 5% now.
Where is your evidence for "What they can't do is just lend out 5 times what they own with nothing to back it"?
Put another way how does money get created? Or does it stay constant?

 

[Railops]

They said on the tv last week that the EU parliament has held back on 70-80% of legislation recently which will all be bought forward as soon as the referendum is over.
The place is apparently just ticking over and is on hold for a deluge of legislation to be introduced after June 23rd.

There is going to be a demand for an extra £20 billion to help pay for Merkels disastrous invitation for anybody who fancies a better life to come to Europe. This has been held back until after June 23rd.
The unelected few who run the EU have the plan of full political Union and the stripping of anything other than trivial legislation from national governments which is even more of a power grab than Federalism would be.
Poll or no poll Cameron will not take us out of the EU even if it needs another referendum so we can safely assume we're stopping In. That is why the civil service have been banned from arranging Brexit contingency measures because Brexit won't happen.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I've read it all and the links.
I'm afraid your out of control money supply is precisely how the crash happened - though funny that inflation wasn't high.
There are Private Banks and Central Banks. UK Private Banks are exempted from the Client Money Rules so thus they issue money out of thin air when creating loans. The Central Banks print it (or spirit it into existance by agreement with the government as in Quantitative Easing).

I've read your links and can only conclude that you imagine that bank reserves are a lot more than they are - about 5% now.
Where is your evidence for "What they can't do is just lend out 5 times what they own with nothing to back it"?
Put another way how does money get created? Or does it stay constant?

No, an out of control money supply was not how the crash happened. That is simply a fact. The crash happened because of the subprime mortgage crisis, and if you would like me to give you an explanation of that I will: but it has nothing to do with 'creating' money in the sense you seem to think it does.

I'm starting to think you don't really understand the system, so I'm clearly wasting my time.

 

[miami]

There is going to be a demand for an extra £20 billion to help pay for Merkels disastrous invitation for anybody who fancies a better life to come to Europe which has been held back until after June 23rd.

Good old reliable daily express?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

They said on the tv last week that the EU parliament has held back on 70-80% of legislation recently which will all be bought forward as soon as the referendum is over.
The place is apparently just ticking over and is on hold for a deluge of legislation to be introduced after June 23rd.

All this was said by whom? An 'out' campaigner or an independent source? Searching online, I can't find any reference to the EU deliberately delaying legislation. It's possible of course - and indeed, in some cases, it probably wouldn't be unreasonable to do so, for the rather obvious reason that the outcome of the referendum might influence how some legislation should be drafted.

However, given that the 'Out' campaign mostly seems to involve telling lies or making highly misleading claims about the EU, you'll perhaps forgive me for being a little sceptical about your claim unless you can provide some evidence to back it up?

 

[NSEFAN]

They said on the tv last week that the EU parliament has held back on 70-80% of legislation recently which will all be bought forward as soon as the referendum is over.
The place is apparently just ticking over and is on hold for a deluge of legislation to be introduced after June 23rd.

Given some of the legislation concocted by our government in recent times, this doesn't sound like such a bad thing to me. Investigatory Powers Bill, anyone?

 

[dgl]

John cleese had a thing on his twitter saying

People like Rupert Murdoch want us to leave the EU as when he tries to get the government to do something they listen whereas the EU ignores him.

Whilst the EU might take some of the decisions away from the government this, especially with the current government, in a lot of cases is a very GOOD idea.
I hate to think how much money would have been spent on pointless vanity projects than regeneration/development projects in places that actually need it if the EU wasn't there to control the spending of development money. I certainly don't believe that if all the money that goes to the EU if allowed to be sent by the current government themselves would go to the people/projects that need it.

 

[furnessvale]

Whilst the EU might take some of the decisions away from the government this, especially with the current government, in a lot of cases is a very GOOD idea.

As long as people with this mindset don't complain when the colour of the UK government changes to one more to their liking, and they find the EU is stopping what THAT government wants to do, there will be no problem.

Who knows what the future could bring? Extreme right wing governments in enough EU countries to change the complexion of the European Council and Parliament?

 

[miami]

As long as people with this mindset don't complain when the colour of the UK government changes to one more to their liking, and they find the EU is stopping what THAT government wants to do, there will be no problem.

What is the EU stopping the UK government from doing?

Who knows what the future could bring? Extreme right wing governments in enough EU countries to change the complexion of the European Council and Parliament?

If only we had a veto....

 

[furnessvale]

What is the EU stopping the UK government from doing?

Don't ask me, ask dgl, he was the one suggesting that EU interference in UK government could be a good thing.

 

[miami]

Don't ask me, ask dgl, he was the one suggesting that EU interference in UK government could be a good thing.

Well it's true that certain regulations are enacted by the EU and followed by the UK government, I'm not aware of any which I don't want. Which ones would you remove?

Currently UK law is passed by a party that has 1 representitive in Scotland, and zero in Ireland.

To pass, these regulations need support of the representitives of at least 50% (maybe 48% in theory) of the common european voter, as well as support of 66% of the sovereign governments. Unlike laws in the UK which pass because the government says so, and that government (of whatever colour) stays in power because 34% of the UK voted for it, and the representitives don't represent their constituents, but instead follow orders of the party whip to obey the government, which is effecively elected by 180 of the 650 members of parliament.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Don't ask me, ask dgl, he was the one suggesting that EU interference in UK government could be a good thing.

Considering it's given us billions of pounds, it quite obviously has been

I mean, I've still yet to hear a proper explanation for why the Out campaign only calculates benefits based on net government expenditure, rather than the more conventional method of taking into account trade as well (which, conveniently, is ignored because it doesn't work in their favour).

 

[furnessvale]

Considering it's given us billions of pounds, it quite obviously has been

I mean, I've still yet to hear a proper explanation for why the Out campaign only calculates benefits based on net government expenditure, rather than the more conventional method of taking into account trade as well (which, conveniently, is ignored because it doesn't work in their favour).

Why does there need to be political interference from other countries to facilitate trade?

More of UK trade is with the rest of the world than with the EU, and we seem to manage quite well with that part of our trade.

 

[Groningen]

Once again; the UK is holding the EU hostage since Thatchers reign of maybe earlier. If it does not go your way you threaten to leave the EU. Well; enough is enough. Please the EU and step out. And put the Eurotunnel full with concrete!

 

[yorksrob]

Once again; the UK is holding the EU hostage since Thatchers reign of maybe earlier. If it does not go your way you threaten to leave the EU. Well; enough is enough. Please the EU and step out. And put the Eurotunnel full with concrete!

Actually, the EU has sucked up to too much of the Conservative parties free market economic ideology. The EU should give Nations far more leeway to manage their own economies. This is as true for every other member state as it is for the UK, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[miami]

Actually, the EU has sucked up to too much of the Conservative parties free market economic ideology. The EU should give Nations far more leeway to manage their own economies. This is as true for every other member state as it is for the UK, as far as I'm concerned.

Any concrete examples?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Why does there need to be political interference from other countries to facilitate trade?

More of UK trade is with the rest of the world than with the EU, and we seem to manage quite well with that part of our trade.

Because things are more complicated than you seem to assume. Trade does not happen in a vacuum.

 

[yorksrob]

Any concrete examples?

The whole of the liberalisation of postal and rail services, which I've mentioned on this thread on numerous occasions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The whole of the liberalisation of postal and rail services, which I've mentioned on this thread on numerous occasions.

You would never have seen that occurring in the Warsaw Pact grouping...

 

[yorksrob]

You would never have seen that occurring in the Warsaw Pact grouping...

I'm not sure what relevance the Warsar Pact has to do with this point, given that in given that in Britannia herself, the postal service has been run successfully as a state monopoly since long before the Warsaw Pact existed until sometime after it disbanded.

 

[furnessvale]

Because things are more complicated than you seem to assume. Trade does not happen in a vacuum.

In which case, I will accept the level of vacuum the majority of our trade takes place in, rather than the suffocation of the EU on the minority.

 

[yorksrob]

So what do we all think of President Obama's intervention in the debate ?

Will this be a game changer for the campaign or will it just damage Americas reputation amongst the British population.

There was an interesting discussion on Radio 4 this morning centering on trade which seemed to suggest that our existing third party trade relationship with the USA wouldn't actually change. The suggestion is more that future trade deals such as TTIP might be affected (assuming it doesn't get kyboshed by congress anyway).

 

[TheKnightWho]

In which case, I will accept the level of vacuum the majority of our trade takes place in, rather than the suffocation of the EU on the minority.

I don't think you understood my point at all. Trade does not happen in a vacuum, because there are numerous other factors that play into it when it comes to international relations; that is why the EU even exists in the form that it does. This is why the TTIP is being created; why the US joined NAFTA etc. If you think the EU "suffocat[es]" our trade then I really do despair for the misinformation that some people hold here.

To be honest, given the devastating losses of the Out camp in the last week, I'm not all that concerned anymore anyway - but that's another matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what do we all think of President Obama's intervention in the debate ?

Will this be a game changer for the campaign or will it just damage Americas reputation amongst the British population.

There was an interesting discussion on Radio 4 this morning centering on trade which seemed to suggest that our existing third party trade relationship with the USA wouldn't actually change. The suggestion is more that future trade deals such as TTIP might be affected (assuming it doesn't get kyboshed by congress anyway).

Seems to have had quite a strong effect on floating voters in favour of In. The reaction of Johnson and Farage on his Kenyan heritage has definitely damaged the Brexit case in the eyes of many, too: it wove a little too close to xenophobia and an appeal to our imperial history for the liking of a lot of people. I also thought Obama made a reasonably good point that he - as the President of the US - should have some say in the debate on what the US' reaction to Brexit would be.

It's important to remember that future deals might well (and are, in some cases going to) supercede current ones; just saying that it'll all be the same and that that's fine and dandy misses Obama's point.

 

[NoMorePacers]

It seemed like Vote Leave would lose, but Gideon just HAD to get himself involved, didn't he? On the Daily Mail on Thursday, the front cover said this:

OSBOURNE ADMITS THAT IF WE WHERE TO STAY IN THE EU WE WOULD LET IN 3M MIGRANTS! SHOCK! HORROR!

The tables have turned.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It seemed like Vote Leave would lose, but Gideon just HAD to get himself involved, didn't he? On the Daily Mail on Thursday, the front cover said this:

OSBOURNE ADMITS THAT IF WE WHERE TO STAY IN THE EU WE WOULD LET IN 3M MIGRANTS! SHOCK! HORROR!

The tables have turned.

The Daily Mail have been saying things like this for months. The tables have not turned at all. They're even describing Brexit as "controversial" now rather than "a must", because they know they're on the back foot.

Polls over the last few days have swung sharply in favour of In: http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think you understood my point at all. Trade does not happen in a vacuum, because there are numerous other factors that play into it when it comes to international relations; that is why the EU even exists in the form that it does. This is why the TTIP is being created; why the US joined NAFTA etc. If you think the EU "suffocat[es]" our trade then I really do despair for the misinformation that some people hold here.

To be honest, given the devastating losses of the Out camp in the last week, I'm not all that concerned anymore anyway - but that's another matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Seems to have had quite a strong effect on floating voters in favour of In. The reaction of Johnson and Farage on his Kenyan heritage has definitely damaged the Brexit case in the eyes of many, too: it wove a little too close to xenophobia and an appeal to our imperial history for the liking of a lot of people. I also thought Obama made a reasonably good point that he - as the President of the US - should have some say in the debate on what the US' reaction to Brexit would be.

It's important to remember that future deals might well (and are, in some cases going to) supercede current ones; just saying that it'll all be the same and that that's fine and dandy misses Obama's point.

You may be right on the effect that it will have on the floating voters. It will be interesting to see.

With regard to trade, I think that the point that was being made on the radio was that if an EU without us made a different trade deal with the USA, the residual trading arrangements that we have with the USA wouldn't automatically be repealed, which is what some people might think, given the tone of the intervention.

I haven't seen any evidence that the current trading arrangements are a bad thing. I am worried about TTIP as I have read that companies will have a greater leverage over democratically elected Governments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also thought it was interesting to read the letter from various US treasury officials in the times, which seems a bit strange as the rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders suggests that the American People themselves don't believe that the American Establishment have been any good at Governing them, so why should we expect them to make decisions about us ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

You may be right on the effect that it will have on the floating voters. It will be interesting to see.

With regard to trade, I think that the point that was being made on the radio was that if an EU without us made a different trade deal with the USA, the residual trading arrangements that we have with the USA wouldn't automatically be repealed, which is what some people might think, given the tone of the intervention.

I haven't seen any evidence that the current trading arrangements are a bad thing. I am worried about TTIP as I have read that companies will have a greater leverage over democratically elected Governments.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also thought it was interesting to read the letter from various US treasury officials in the times, which seems a bit strange as the rise of Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders suggests that the American People themselves don't believe that the American Establishment have been any good at Governing them, so why should we expect them to make decisions about us ?

They aren't a bad thing, but it's highly unlikely TTIP won't go through (although it is a possibility if Sanders gets elected). The rise of populists over there seems to be as a result of a constant barrage of attacks against Obama, and an increasingly desperate attempts by corporatism to drive the country further right. Instead, they've created Sanders (their worst nightmare) and Trump, who has 0 principles and doesn't shy away from attacking the very people that created him.

Regardless of our personal opinions on whether TTIP is good or not, the worst situation of all would be for it to come into force but with Britain shut out of it, because we'd be completely shut out of the economies of scale and other reduced tariffs that it would bring, and it would be devastating to domestic business on the global markets. That's where we have to be wary about current treaties being superceded but without Britain's involvement.

 

[yorksrob]

They aren't a bad thing, but it's highly unlikely TTIP won't go through (although it is a possibility if Sanders gets elected). The rise of populists over there seems to be as a result of a constant barrage of attacks against Obama, and an increasingly desperate attempts by corporatism to drive the country further right. Instead, they've created Sanders (their worst nightmare) and Trump, who has 0 principles and doesn't shy away from attacking the very people that created him.

Regardless of our personal opinions on whether TTIP is good or not, the worst situation of all would be for it to come into force but with Britain shut out of it, because we'd be completely shut out of the economies of scale and other reduced tariffs that it would bring, and it would be devastating to domestic business on the global markets. That's where we have to be superceded but without Britain's involvement.

There may be an element of truth in that. I intend to read into the thing a bit more before I make my mind up on the referendum.

My gut feeling though is that Obama has overstepped the mark on what constitutes a reasonable intervention for a foreign power to make in another countries affairs.

 

[TheKnightWho]

There may be an element of truth in that. I intend to read into the thing a bit more before I make my mind up on the referendum.

My gut feeling though is that Obama has overstepped the mark on what constitutes a reasonable intervention for a foreign power to make in another countries affairs.

I don't really understand how. If the argument by Brexit is that we should forge stronger alliances and connections with Anglophone nations instead of the EU, it makes sense for him to cast some truth and feasibility on the matter. It's not like he got involved with no prompt.