Should We Leave the EU?

[Tetchytyke]

In the old Yugoslavia it was continued EU interference that helped start the major civil war

An interesting view of what happened in Yugoslavia, I have to say. You're going to have to elaborate further about what the EU specifically did to "cause" the civil war.

Most sensible historians seem to be of the opinion that the breakup stemmed from the instability caused by the death of Tito and perestroika in the USSR. The instability created strong feelings of nationalism throughout the 80s and after the fall of communism in the USSR it all blew up. Just as it did elsewhere in Europe, including in Czechoslovakia.

It was only decisive action by the US/NATO forces that stopped the violence. Peace was established by the US-brokered Dayton Agreement.

The EU doesn't have an army, so of course it was NATO that led the military intervention.

The Dayton Agreement did broker an unstable peace between Serbia and Bosnia, but as for "stopping the violence"? This must come as something as a shock to the Kosovans, who ended up in a bloody war with Serbia- requiring more NATO intervention- not two years after the Serbians had signed the Dayton Agreement.

What really stopped the Serbians was the promise of accession to the European Union. They were given the choice of carrying on the wars and the human rights abuses, or joining the EU. The likes of Milosevic and Mladic (who would still be at large were it not for the EU's diplomatic interventions) were handed over.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

One word answer - Yes, we should leave the EU.

Europe could be classed as a country in its own right as it has a flag (the ghastly Ring Of Stars), an anthem (Ode To Joy), its own currency (the Euro), its own Central Bank (the ECB), its own "govenment" (European Parliment) and eventually as Junker, Merkal and their mates want it, a European Armed Forces.

I should state at this point that the EU want to go further than what the USSR did when they were in existance until 1991. The USSR did have some borders, the EU wants to get rid of them and have a borderless "country".

 

[Groningen]

In the old Yugoslavia it was continued EU interference that helped start the major civil war

Wrong; Bosnia and Herzegovina decided that they wanted to be independent in 1992. Know your facts or do not talk about it.

 

[crehld]

One word answer - Yes, we should leave the EU.

Europe could be classed as a country in its own right as it has a flag (the ghastly Ring Of Stars), an anthem (Ode To Joy), its own currency (the Euro), its own Central Bank (the ECB), its own "govenment" (European Parliment) and eventually as Junker, Merkal and their mates want it, a European Armed Forces.

I should state at this point that the EU want to go further than what the USSR did when they were in existance until 1991. The USSR did have some borders, the EU wants to get rid of them and have a borderless "country".

Is there any factual basis in your desire to leave?

The flag and anthem are symbols of the Council of Europe, not the EU specifically (although the EU has unofficially adopted the flag). The Euro is a currency only in some (that is not all) EU member states (last time I checked I still bought things using pounds sterling in this country - perhaps I'm wrong?). The European Parliament is not a government (indeed like all parliaments everywhere in the known world it does not exercise executive functions). There is no EU run army in the making. And I can find no parallels between the EU'a principle of free movement and the Soviet Union's expansionism.

I don't doubt your desire to leave, but I do worry you are basing it on falsehoods and incorrect facts.

... Then again I see no desire for facts in this thread or the debate at large. People seem quite content with lies and misinformation.

 

[Steveman]

I see no desire for facts in this thread or the debate at large. People seem quite content with lies and misinformation.

A forum rule states "Please ensure your contributions are accurate to the best of your knowledge"

Have you reported all the posters who you say have posted lies, if you haven't then you shouldn't say posters are liars.

 

[deltic]

A forum rule states "Please ensure your contributions are accurate to the best of your knowledge"

Have you reported all the posters who you say have posted lies, if you haven't then you shouldn't say posters are liars.

Crehld seems to be one of the best informed contributors to this debate - I would be more charitable and suggest there is a lot of misunderstanding and myths being repeated on this thread - I doubt anyone is deliberately saying things they know to be untrue.

 

[TheKnightWho]

One word answer - Yes, we should leave the EU.

Europe could be classed as a country in its own right as it has a flag (the ghastly Ring Of Stars), an anthem (Ode To Joy), its own currency (the Euro), its own Central Bank (the ECB), its own "govenment" (European Parliment) and eventually as Junker, Merkal and their mates want it, a European Armed Forces.

I should state at this point that the EU want to go further than what the USSR did when they were in existance until 1991. The USSR did have some borders, the EU wants to get rid of them and have a borderless "country".

An Express reader, by any chance? The paper today that said there was OUTRAGE over the budget being pro-EU - something only Dirty Des could spin in such a way.

 

[Steveman]

Crehld seems to be one of the best informed contributors to this debate - I would be more charitable and suggest there is a lot of misunderstanding and myths being repeated on this thread - I doubt anyone is deliberately saying things they know to be untrue.

If he'd have said misunderstanding that wouldn't have been so bad but he didn't he said lies which is very different.

 

[TheKnightWho]

If he'd have said misunderstanding that wouldn't have been so bad but he didn't he said lies which is very different.

And a reasonable interpretation of his statement is that people are content to believe lies told by others. Of course, you seem to be looking for a fight rather than reasoned debate, so I'm not surprised you took it the way you did...

 

[crehld]

And a reasonable interpretation of his statement is that people are content to believe lies told by others.

This was indeed the way in which my statement was supposed to be interpreted. Apologies to all for any confusion caused!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If he'd have said misunderstanding that wouldn't have been so bad but he didn't he said lies which is very different.

Indeed he did: people are believing the lies of others. And yes, there are lies, including UKIP MEP David Coburn saying EU regulations mean toasters "are only as powerful as a candle", despite no EU regulations ever being made about toasters.

Instead of picking a fight, how's about answering the specific question I asked three posts ago. In case you've forgotten, I asked you to explain specifically what the EU did which caused a civil war in the former Yugoslavia.

 

[yorksrob]

It's laughable that backbenchers are apparently considering revolting over the "tampon tax". The real question is why the EU has any jurisdiction over VAT at all. I've yet to hear an argument as to why this is necessary at all.

 

[LateThanNever]

It's laughable that backbenchers are apparently considering revolting over the "tampon tax". The real question is why the EU has any jurisdiction over VAT at all. I've yet to hear an argument as to why this is necessary at all.

Agreed in a way - but don't forget it was the UK in favour of the level playing field! So that means that VAT is universal and at least the tampon tax is levied throughout Europe in a similar fashion!

 

[Tetchytyke]

The real question is why the EU has any jurisdiction over VAT at all. I've yet to hear an argument as to why this is necessary at all.

It was done as part of the reforms that did away with duty free allowances throughout the EU. Reforms that were demanded by, er, the UK government because of the sheer number of people filling their vans with cheap cigs and booze in Calais.

 

[yorksrob]

It was done as part of the reforms that did away with duty free allowances throughout the EU. Reforms that were demanded by, er, the UK government because of the sheer number of people filling their vans with cheap cigs and booze in Calais.

Sorry, I don't see why there is a link between duty free between member states and domestic VAT policy.

Why did the EU even want to control VAT policy?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The desire was for each member state to set its tax rate, but for all member states to tax everything the same to avoid issues where duty is charged in some member states but not in others.

I agree, it is madness- taxation should be a matter for the member states.

 

[yorksrob]

The desire was for each member state to set its tax rate, but for all member states to tax everything the same to avoid issues where duty is charged in some member states but not in others.

I agree, it is madness- taxation should be a matter for the member states.

Well, indeed.

It just illustrates how a single taxation system across several countries cannot work.

Do we think that this sort of situation (interfering in member states' VAT decisions) is likely to be changed if we were to stay,"influencing" the EU?

 

[miami]

Well, indeed.

It just illustrates how a single taxation system across several countries cannot work.

Do we think that this sort of situation (interfering in member states' VAT decisions) is likely to be changed if we were to stay,"influencing" the EU?

Certainly could. Have you contacted your MEP to lobby for such a change? The same rules apply to other countries, who are equally affected

As it happens it's the sovereign uk government that pushed for this law to be in place in the first place, so perhaps starting with your own MP would be a good idea?


P.s I'm pro tampon tax. Many items that attract vat are not luxuries, including razor blades. What makes tampons different?

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly could. Have you contacted your MEP to lobby for such a change? The same rules apply to other countries, who are equally affected

As it happens it's the sovereign uk government that pushed for this law to be in place in the first place, so perhaps starting with your own MP would be a good idea?


P.s I'm pro tampon tax. Many items that attract vat are not luxuries, including razor blades. What makes tampons different?

I've no interest in whether one item or not happens to be a luxury or not. My view is that there is no reason for a super-national organisation to have an opinion on the subject or not.

The EU could be the most "democratic" organisation in the world, but it would still be a foreign imposition on national self-government as far as I'm concerned.

You've suggested an opinion on whether you think tampons are luxuries, but you've not offered a suggestion as to why the EU should decide whether tampons are a 'luxury' item or not

 

[Senex]

The EU could be the most "democratic" organisation in the world, but it would still be a foreign imposition on national self-government as far as I'm concerned.

But we don't have "national self-government" -- if we did, there would be devolution within the British state (not nation) to an English parliament so that English nationhood was properly recognised.

 

[yorksrob]

But we don't have "national self-government" -- if we did, there would be devolution within the British state (not nation) to an English parliament so that English nationhood was properly recognised.

To be honest, I'd rather see a lot more devolution within the British state down to regional level. I don't see what benefit the North and West has to gain from a London centric English state, but that's another argument.

 

[radamfi]

Tax harmonisation makes the single market work more effectively. IMO there is not enough tax harmonisation within the EU. We already have artefacts such as companies basing themselves in Luxembourg or Ireland because of more advantageous tax regimes. At least we have a minimum VAT rate of 15% across the EU, and most of the rates are quite similar.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

802 posts on this thread....and still three months to go to the referendum...

 

[anme]

One word answer - Yes, we should leave the EU.

Europe could be classed as a country in its own right as it has a flag (the ghastly Ring Of Stars), an anthem (Ode To Joy), its own currency (the Euro), its own Central Bank (the ECB), its own "govenment" (European Parliment) and eventually as Junker, Merkal and their mates want it, a European Armed Forces.

I should state at this point that the EU want to go further than what the USSR did when they were in existance until 1991. The USSR did have some borders, the EU wants to get rid of them and have a borderless "country".

This post is a work of genius. There is no way I could sum up the poor state of education in the UK so perfectly in just three paragraphs.

 

[yorksrob]

Tax harmonisation makes the single market work more effectively. IMO there is not enough tax harmonisation within the EU. We already have artefacts such as companies basing themselves in Luxembourg or Ireland because of more advantageous tax regimes. At least we have a minimum VAT rate of 15% across the EU, and most of the rates are quite similar.

That may be true of business rates, but since VAT is paid by the consumer at the point the transaction takes place, I don't see how differing VAT rates would have any effect on where business takes place (unless a country introduced separate VAT rates depending on country of origin - but you don't need harmonised VAT rates to outlaw that!).

 

[anme]

I've no interest in whether one item or not happens to be a luxury or not. My view is that there is no reason for a super-national organisation to have an opinion on the subject or not.

The EU could be the most "democratic" organisation in the world, but it would still be a foreign imposition on national self-government as far as I'm concerned.

You've suggested an opinion on whether you think tampons are luxuries, but you've not offered a suggestion as to why the EU should decide whether tampons are a 'luxury' item or not

Why should someone in London decide what is a luxury for someone who lives in Yorkshire? That's a regional imposition on the good people of Yorkshire.

 

[yorksrob]

Why should someone in London decide what is a luxury for someone who lives in Yorkshire? That's a regional imposition on the good people of Yorkshire.

Fair point. Why not devolve VAT to the regions.

 

[anme]

OK - so those of you who want to leave... what post-EU model do you want for the UK? Do you want to become like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, remaining as part of the EEA, so in single market with the right to live and work across Europe, but not part of the EU and subject to fewer rules (but still some), contributing less to EU budgets, etc? Or do you want full detachment? Or something else?

Please don't tell me you haven't thought about this...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair point. Why not devolve VAT to the regions.

But why should someone in York decide the VAT rate for the good people of Halifax? This is basically imperialism.

 

[yorksrob]

OK - so those of you who want to leave... what post-EU model do you want for the UK? Do you want to become like Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, remaining as part of the EEA, so in single market with the right to live and work across Europe, but not part of the EU and subject to fewer rules (but still some), contributing less to EU budgets, etc? Or do you want full detachment? Or something else?

Please don't tell me you haven't thought about this...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But why should someone in York decide the VAT rate for the good people of Halifax? This is basically imperialism.

There has to be a level at which such a tax is administered. I just don't see why it has to be super-national.

All of the above relationships with the EU cited seem to be different from eachother, so it seems fair to assume that whatever we negotiated would be different again.

Personally I think the Common Market seems to put too much emphasis on private ownership of public services and utilities, so less involvement in that would be my preference.

BTW, there's likely to be a lot more meddling in our economy if this trade deal with North America goes through, which the Establishment seems very keen to keep quiet about.

 

[radamfi]

That may be true of business rates, but since VAT is paid by the consumer at the point the transaction takes place, I don't see how differing VAT rates would have any effect on where business takes place (unless a country introduced separate VAT rates depending on country of origin - but you don't need harmonised VAT rates to outlaw that!).

Ordinary consumers do cross borders to take advantage of lower tax rates, the most obvious example being tobacco where there are lots of cigarette shops in Belgium at the border with France. People also shop online and get deliveries from other EU countries.