Should we have DOO?

[Class377/5]

I would be happy to pass on driver and guard if it meant that the service was as reliable as the DLR.

Er you do realise the DLR operates with a guard (or CSA as they are called) don't you. Your example fails to reinforce your point, in fact it undermines it.

 

[jopsuk]

Quite. DLR does not run if the CSA (or is it PSA?) is not there- eg strike action. They have responsibility for closing the doors. Meanwhile the line itself is almost all in deep cuttings, elevated or tunneled, with zero level crossings. Makes it far less likely that there will be trespassers or even objects on the line. Even Mudchute farm is on the other side of a road reducing the chances of livestock incursion.

 

[O L Leigh]

Olaf: I cannot respond to your points without further needless repetition. Also, from the tone of your recent posts, it would appear that you wouldn't be prepared to listen anyway.

O L Leigh

 

[313103]

Don't wish to make this personal, but planet is Olaf on?

 

[Bald Rick]

Quite. DLR does not run if the CSA (or is it PSA?) is not there- eg strike action. They have responsibility for closing the doors. Meanwhile the line itself is almost all in deep cuttings, elevated or tunneled, with zero level crossings. Makes it far less likely that there will be trespassers or even objects on the line. Even Mudchute farm is on the other side of a road reducing the chances of livestock incursion.

Quite. Although it is true that the reason on board staff were put on in preference to station dispatchers from the opening of the system is that there were fewer trains in service than stations open, so it was cheaper.

 

[HSTEd]

In other words, there is no reason for that person to be aboard the train at all.

They operate systems with no staffing on the vehicles in other parts of the world, without suffering significant safety issues.

And as to say that the unions would suceed in securing such salary increases for surviving staff that they would wipe out the savings seems a little unrealistic.
A government that wants to can easily defeat ASLEF and the RMT.
ASLEF taking that fight up would likely lead to more research on that aforementioned obstacle detection equipment that would eventually allow all drivers to be dispensed with.
That would be the end of ASLEF and would break the most militant remaining union.

So union members should be careful what they wish for - you have to chose your battles, and with public sympathies with unions at all time lows that might not be very many at all.

 

[Fincra5]

Given HS1 trains, 395's have to operate with an Onboard Manager but are DOO.. wheres the cost saving. I remember looking a while back and OBMs were on the same, if not more than Guards for SE.

If trains are going to have to operate with OBMs on non-DOO lines, why not just have the Conductor/ Guard work them to a point where the line is DOO.?

 

[muz379]

In other words, there is no reason for that person to be aboard the train at all.

They operate systems with no staffing on the vehicles in other parts of the world, without suffering significant safety issues.

And as to say that the unions would suceed in securing such salary increases for surviving staff that they would wipe out the savings seems a little unrealistic.
A government that wants to can easily defeat ASLEF and the RMT.
ASLEF taking that fight up would likely lead to more research on that aforementioned obstacle detection equipment that would eventually allow all drivers to be dispensed with.
That would be the end of ASLEF and would break the most militant remaining union.

So union members should be careful what they wish for - you have to chose your battles, and with public sympathies with unions at all time lows that might not be very many at all.

Repeating myself yet again
How is it unrealistic to expect Aslef to campaign for a masive pay increase when it comes to taking on the whole new world of responsibility of managing the PTI . I think people need to sit down and think about what you are asking drivers to do and think if you would take on so much more responsibility . Dispatchers will also play an even more crucial role in dispatch if they are going to be dispatching driver only trains and so will hold additional responsibility being the last set of eyes and the people making the decisions to CD at dispatched stations , they will also want more money for this responsibility ,not to mention that more locations will need dispatchers , I currently work thorugh locations where a dispatcher would be necessary if I where not able to step onto the platform and take control of closing the doors because you cant see the whole of the train from either cab window position . Not to mention that the favored system seems to be having revenue staff on all trains replacing the guards grade , at the TOC I work for the RPI;s are not paid much short of a guards salary , maybe £4k-£5 in it , If you think you can buy out the drivers ,dispatchers and provide more dispatchers for the £4k-£5k per guard you are going to save then good luck to you

The government and mayor of London's office certainly beat the RMT in the recent tube strikes didn't it .

As for Aslef not striking and getting involved , they will strike they arent scared of more research into obstacle detection systems , even if that does come about you are looking at it taking a long time , in the meantime you have to deal with the disruption of strikes if you wish to take on the unions.


I think seeing as people are talking about the savings being nonesense it is time to do something to try and break the circular journey this discussion is taking and talk real numbers

How much do you think under the new improved method of work the following grades should be paid- Salaries are those at Northern which is one of the proposed future DOO franchises
Drivers - Currently on £44k
2nd on board staff -revenue bod - Guards currently on £25k
Dispatchers - Currently on £21k

 

[HSTEd]

Development and installation only has to be paid for once though.
Once the genie is out of the bottle it can never be put back in.

It might cost as much as conventional operation in the short term, but in the long term it will have it beaten all hollow. Once the drivers are forced to accept zero pay increases and inflation reduces their pay.

London was not spoiling for a fight with the Unions, the current national government certainly is - expect more restrictions on strikes.

Additionally there is no particular reason the dispatcher even has to be on the platform these days, an array of cameras could be positioned to give complete coverage of the side of the train from a variety of angles and then the 'Dispatcher' can sit in the control room with a mug of tea, pressing the "Ready to depart" button once all the doors are closed.
They can then switch to another train dispatching on another platform, possibly even in another station, and then dispatch that one too.

The number of dispatchers falls rather drastically in that case.

 

[muz379]

Development and installation only has to be paid for once though.
Once the genie is out of the bottle it can never be put back in.

It might cost as much as conventional operation in the short term, but in the long term it will have it beaten all hollow. Once the drivers are forced to accept zero pay increases and inflation reduces their pay.

London was not spoiling for a fight with the Unions, the current national government certainly is - expect more restrictions on strikes.

Additionally there is no particular reason the dispatcher even has to be on the platform these days, an array of cameras could be positioned to give complete coverage of the side of the train from a variety of angles and then the 'Dispatcher' can sit in the control room with a mug of tea, pressing the "Ready to depart" button once all the doors are closed.
They can then switch to another train dispatching on another platform, possibly even in another station, and then dispatch that one too.

The number of dispatchers falls rather drastically in that case.

Oh right so another one of them people who thinks that rail staff are overpaid and useless to the traveling public . and should all be forced to accept pay freezes and cuts . Tbh this seems like the politics of envy but with the right against the working that have managed to fight for and secure decent pay and conditions and not the right against the left like it usually is .

The current national government might not even be in power by the time this franchise is up for bidding and so the spoiling for a fight might be gone .

Do you actually have any railway experience , Dispatch isnt just about pressing a button , sometimes its necessary to interact with the passengers to get them to move back / to make it safe for the train to depart . Let me tell you from a guards perspective on a busy platform a good dispatcher is worth their weight in gold and actually helps you get the train out keeping to timetable as closely as possible not something they would be as effective at if they where just in a control room pressing buttons .

 

[Fincra5]

Oh right so another one of them people who thinks that rail staff are overpaid and useless to the traveling public . and should all be forced to accept pay freezes and cuts . Tbh this seems like the politics of envy but with the right against the working that have managed to fight for and secure decent pay and conditions and not the right against the left like it usually is .

The current national government might not even be in power by the time this franchise is up for bidding and so the spoiling for a fight might be gone .

Do you actually have any railway experience , Dispatch isnt just about pressing a button , sometimes its necessary to interact with the passengers to get them to move back / to make it safe for the train to depart . Let me tell you from a guards perspective on a busy platform a good dispatcher is worth their weight in gold and actually helps you get the train out keeping to timetable as closely as possible not something they would be as effective at if they where just in a control room pressing buttons .

I concur completely.. In my experience there are some brilliant dispatchers, and some.. well... not so. Clapham P12 used to be terrible, sometimes only 1 turning up for a 12 car, they've gotten a lot better recently and staff actually turn up.

In my opinion there shouldn't be an extension or expansion of DOO.

If you want savings... look higher up to all the management grades and ask - "Do we really need all of them?" , I can tell you now, No! Also stop all those expensive "Team Building" nonsense courses they go on several times a year!!! If they can't all work together in an office, they are in the wrong Job. Farcical is how I'd describe the management/ office set up in the Railways.

 

[the sniper]

Do you actually have any railway experience.

Don't be silly, you know the answer to that.

 

[455driver]

Do you actually have any railway experience.

Of course he does, he has played Train Sim for months and knows all our jobs better than us!

Funnily enough my lad was watching a yootoob video of some clart 'driving' one of my main routes, the braking would have got every passenger piled up in the front coach and the driver sitting in front of his manager 'for a chat' quicker than any of his station approaches.

I use the word 'driving' with a great deal of reservation!

 

[muz379]

Of course he does, he has played Train Sim for months and knows all our jobs better than us!

Funnily enough my lad was watching a yootoob video of some clart 'driving' one of my main routes, the braking would have got every passenger piled up in the front coach and the driver sitting in front of his manager 'for a chat' quicker than any of his station approaches.

I use the word 'driving' with a great deal of reservation!

If only the passengers IRL boarded the train with the great efficiency speed and order as I can imagine they do in train sim.
I bet in train sim world you dont get the same moron with his bike everyday getting on at the wrong door and blacking the gangway with his bike , and you dont get the sheep all crowding round one door .
You also wont get idiots trying to race the train as it departs the platform

 

[DT611]

... all of which are due to human error.

and? technology can fail also, i'd rather the human where possible myself.

It is not about the livelyhoods of the guards, I'm sure they will find suitable employment elsewhere

and they may not, whats the point of removing them for no saving.

what does concern is that passengers and tax payers are having to subsidise a role that is now of quetionable value at best.

its not of questionable value at all, there should be a second person aboard trains, what does concern me is that even with the guards gone passengers and tax payers will still have to subsidise to the same amount but for nobody on a train apart from a driver, the passengers are then expected to annoy the driver who is busy driving the train if they have an issue
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They could also abolish the right to strike in the rail industry which I am sure will be very welcome

unless a contagious illness was to happen, or something else, which would prove such a ban to be pointless

That would reduce loses to the economy, more so than changes to the above compensation clauses.

any losses to the economy due to striking are usually over inflated anyway to make a political point, but i take it your suggesting not abolishing or cutting these compensation clauses?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In other words, there is no reason for that person to be aboard the train at all.

They operate systems with no staffing on the vehicles in other parts of the world, without suffering significant safety issues.

And as to say that the unions would suceed in securing such salary increases for surviving staff that they would wipe out the savings seems a little unrealistic.
A government that wants to can easily defeat ASLEF and the RMT.
ASLEF taking that fight up would likely lead to more research on that aforementioned obstacle detection equipment that would eventually allow all drivers to be dispensed with.
That would be the end of ASLEF and would break the most militant remaining union.

So union members should be careful what they wish for - you have to chose your battles, and with public sympathies with unions at all time lows that might not be very many at all.

i doubt it, the only way the union could be broken is to shut the railway altogether i suspect, much easier to listen to what they have to say rather then trying and failing to break them

 

[sd0733]

I'm sure loads of these ideas would work brilliantly In the perfect world where all passengers form an orderly queue at the door, evenly spread along the platform, don't run at the last second at a closing door, put their hands on the window to say goodbye and their 2 little kids run after the train waving at Granny but unfortunately this is the real world and all of those things occur which can only be dealt with by staff on the ground, not by drivers or despatchers monitoring cameras.

This week I've had to help the driver with a line search for a report of a suicidal person, which obviously cant happen if I'm not there and could result in delay while waiting for a second crew member to assist/ not be checked as thoroughly and end up hitting said person. I've also had a window hit and shatter the outer pain at 110mph resulting in getting the speed reduced to 100mph, clearing the area, informing control, getting the glass of the outer pain removed etc and calming down the passengers who were elderly and a bit distressed by it. A driver in his cab would probably not know and would merrily continue at full speed with passengers sat by it until the inner pain potentally breaks and injures people.

A lot of drivers at my depot were discussing DOO earlier, some said if it came in they would simply retire as its not worth the extra responsibilities, some others said they wouldn't accept any payment and would simply not do it, im sure though that most people would eventually have a price they couldn't turn down but This shows that simply saying DOO is happening isn't going to mean its just accepted and happens and the cost savings are not anywhere like as clear-cut as some seem to believe. Although I suppose the drivers could all go to and get someone on minimum wage to do that too.

 

[Fincra5]

Indeed...you speak to a lot of drivers.. Down the coastways and they prefer having a 'bell ringer' onboard. Most don't want DOO.. And don't really like driving DOO mainline trains. If it came down to actual train staff casting a vote..I can ensure you it would be a resounding NO to DOO.

 

[muz379]

in an ideal world with no vandals throwing trolleys and other obstructions on the tracks , no trespassers committing suicide or putting themselves in dangerous situations just being silly throwing ballast at trains , no track defects and no incidents at stations during dispatch the whole railway could just run like a hornby train set with one person watching over a vast area but this is real life and all sorts of things can will and do happen and you need people there to ensure that when dangerous and unpredictable situations unfold they are controlled quickly because unlike your train set peoples lives are at stake on the real railway .

All of the drivers I have spoken to have said they dont want DOO , they value having someone there who actually knows about railways and not just revenue to back them up if something goes wrong .

 

[w0033944]

It is not about the livelyhoods of the guards, I'm sure they will find suitable employment elsewhere...

In which employment another Olaf says "It is not about the livelihoods of the ..., I'm sure they will find suitable employment elsewhere."

I recently read a Q&A in New Scientist with an American researcher who examines how technology will affect employment. His view was that a modified economy which takes advantage of improved technology to remove the employment imperative from workers whose sectors have been decimated by that technology should work well. Unfortunately, if the economic model does not change, the consequence is massive unemployment due to people retraining so often for new jobs only to see a computer replacing them that they are mentally burned-out.

This in turn leads to a Wellsian two-tier society - low-paid grunts and the vast numbers of unemployed subsisting, while a leisured class of managers and executives has more money than they know what to do with. In other words, skilled trades are all-but extinct, as are many less well-paid professional positions.

 

[pt_mad]

As said above there is an overwhelming argument for NOT having DOO.

However we all know that there is no other reason for it other than a cost reduction.
Certainly it is not as safe as having an actual person there for dispatch, emergencies and incidents, and nobody can say otherwise.

However this will not stop it being introduced, as it has been elsewhere.

I mean there have been numerous serious incidents on the platform train interface within the last couple of years. Some have resulted in near death or serious injury. It seems to be in focus at the moment.

However regardless of this TOCs and bodies still seem to want to press on towards DOO.


Fine, some will say that there is no evidence that having an actual person present on the platform is any safer. But to that I ask if there is nobody there, who will tell that persons running for the already locked train door to stand well clear?
Or do the drivers simply wait as long as possible for every runner to board even if its an extra 3 minutes?
And what if the train is already pulling out? Just do an emergency brake application every time someone runs from every stairwell as theres nobody there to warn them?

 

[Class377/5]

Sorry but DOO doesn't have to mean only a driver on board. Its being confused as a reason to reinforce an opinion.

DOO doesn't mean there is only a driver onboard so some of the example above are misplaced at best. Especially as Govia won GTR on quality, would it not make sense to retain staff on board for flagship services that can assist driver in times of incident, after all second staff member often can help reduce delay minutes and improve quality of the passenger experience so there is a case for it.

Just like to add that while I'm ok with DOO, I'm not with only The driver being onboard staff personally. In my eyes of a service goes DOO, then the guard role should change but stay safety critical for evacuation, dealing with incidents etc.

 

[pt_mad]

Sorry but DOO doesn't have to mean only a driver on board. Its being confused as a reason to reinforce an opinion.

DOO doesn't mean there is only a driver onboard so some of the example above are misplaced at best. Especially as Govia won GTR on quality, would it not make sense to retain staff on board for flagship services that can assist driver in times of incident, after all second staff member often can help reduce delay minutes and improve quality of the passenger experience so there is a case for it.

Just like to add that while I'm ok with DOO, I'm not with only The driver being onboard staff personally. In my eyes of a service goes DOO, then the guard role should change but stay safety critical for evacuation, dealing with incidents etc.

The driver may not be the only person on board, but they are likely to be the only operational member of staff on board.

I don't think a solution is going to be demoting conductors/TMs to ticket checkers but insisting they stay trained in everything they currently are just in case, whilst imposing a pay cut on them.

As said above it is simply for cost cutting and nothing else.


I mean in theory TOCs could just go mad, and have pendolinos with DOO, food and drink self service vending machines, help points onboard for any enquiries or help requirements and call it a day.

Or just have the trains drive themselves. Would the public put up with that? Probably not for their £150 return ticket.


What happened to being human and the ethics of putting people into jobs and helping them to retain jobs?

Why always look to reduce jobs when we can at least retain them?


I mean we all want our kids and families to be in jobs - good jobs. But how will this ever be possible if all firms do is try and make cuts and more cuts?

 

[455driver]

Just like to add that while I'm ok with DOO, I'm not with only The driver being onboard staff personally. In my eyes of a service goes DOO, then the guard role should change but stay safety critical for evacuation, dealing with incidents etc.

DOO means that the only safety critical member on board the train is the driver.
Although the train might have a ticket examiner on board they will not be safety critical and would be as much use as any other passenger in an emergency because they will not be trained (or insured) to do anything except check tickets. If the company want them to have any more responsibility then their pay will increase according to how much responsibility they are taking on. What happens to the cost savings then?

 

[Fincra5]

Even if there is DOO I very much doubt a Ticket Examiner will check the train anymore times than an Conductor... Also for DDA access who is going to do the ramps unless there is staff at every station.. Can't have a no safety person doing it as it involves the movement of trains.

Have SE saved any money having a OBM over a guard? (seeing as they are paid the same if not more)...

In these times of the gov trying to reduce unemployment.. Why do they seem to actively try to remove people from it!

 

[pt_mad]

In these times of the gov trying to reduce unemployment.. Why do they seem to actively try to remove people from it!

Exactly!

I mean society bash dole claimants etc but how are these people supposed to get jobs when people in jobs are actively being removed.

I'm sure even the TOC board of directors members etc who cut the jobs want their own kids to find good secure employment. Employment where though - other companies other than theirs?

I mean if we keep using technology as an excuse to cut human jobs down to a minimum then how can there possibly be enough work for an ever increasing uk population anyway?

And jobs are made as unskilled as possible so they can be low paid.

And just a note non safety critical staff can do ramps. Ticket office staff do it in my area and non are safety critical. So I'm sure ticket collectors would be told to.

 

[Moonshot]

Exactly!

I mean society bash dole claimants etc but how are these people supposed to get jobs when people in jobs are actively being removed.

I'm sure even the TOC board of directors members etc who cut the jobs want their own kids to find good secure employment. Employment where though - other companies other than theirs?

I mean if we keep using technology as an excuse to cut human jobs down to a minimum then how can there possibly be enough work for an ever increasing uk population anyway?

And jobs are made as unskilled as possible so they can be low paid.

And just a note non safety critical staff can do ramps. Ticket office staff do it in my area and non are safety critical. So I'm sure ticket collectors would be told to.

And yet here we have an article pointing out that TOCs are employing more than they did 15 years ago.....

http://www.railwaypeople.com/rail-n...-more-people-than-pre-privatisation-2318.html

 

[pt_mad]

And yet here we have an article pointing out that TOCs are employing more than they did 15 years ago.....

http://www.railwaypeople.com/rail-n...-more-people-than-pre-privatisation-2318.html

Well pushing for DOO is cretainly not reflective of that.

In context that article says itself passenger numbers have increased more than 70%.

 

[Moonshot]

Well pushing for DOO is cretainly not reflective of that.

In context that article says itself passenger numbers have increased more than 70%.

It would be interesting to find out just how many of those roles created are in fact ones created to " enhance " the customer experience onboard etc.

 

[ExRes]

Even if there is DOO I very much doubt a Ticket Examiner will check the train anymore times than an Conductor... Also for DDA access who is going to do the ramps unless there is staff at every station.. Can't have a no safety person doing it as it involves the movement of trains.

Have SE saved any money having a OBM over a guard? (seeing as they are paid the same if not more)...

In these times of the gov trying to reduce unemployment.. Why do they seem to actively try to remove people from it!

Why blame government ?, the reason so many people are unemployed these days is because everyone wants cheap, cheap, cheap, mechanisation and computerisation reduce headcount and reduce prices to the consumer and that's what 'we' all want

How many people would choose to buy a car that cost £15k because it took 20 technicians to make it when they could get the same car, made by 1 tech and a robot, for £12k ?

Look at todays news, how many of us will refuse to buy Microsoft products because they are doing away with 18000 jobs ?

The accountants will have worked out how much accidents will cost them to settle rather than employ staff

 

[pt_mad]

Why blame government ?, the reason so many people are unemployed these days is because everyone wants cheap, cheap, cheap, mechanisation and computerisation reduce headcount and reduce prices to the consumer and that's what 'we' all want

How many people would choose to buy a car that cost £15k because it took 20 technicians to make it when they could get the same car, made by 1 tech and a robot, for £12k ?

'We all' is a bit of an overstatement. After all if we all want cheap who buys Jags then and who goes Virgin when you can go LM?

People travelling Virgin / East Coast / XC / FGW don't get cheap tickets.