Should we have DOO?

[Carlisle]

Ok thanks for the additional information , it was certainly a horrible tragedy for all concerned

 

[LowLevel]

Apart from getting a slap? Almost none. There are no obstructions that close to the train for a guard to risk being struck. About the biggest risk is a fault with the droplight itself, as I'm aware of at least one DOO driver who has been "chinned" by his droplight.

However, compare that to the benefit of having an unobstructed view of the platform and the chance to be able to intervene if something bad happens. Then contrast that to DOO despatch where there is no vigilance whatsoever away from staffed platforms and, even where there is staff, no way to stop a train once it has been given the RA.



Assuming that you're a guard and that therefore it is not your job to be looking out of the window to check that your train is correctly routed, I am assuming that you are suggesting that the risk is zero.

O L Leigh

Confirming I'm a guard who operates trains into large stations with a lot of platforms, then yes, it is absolutely a part of my role to pop my head out and have a quick check of the theatre box or junction indicator at the appropriate time to see where we are going. At some of the stations I work into there are local instructions about announcements to be made in good time for safety reasons in certain circumstances specifically related to platforming. Short of buzzing up my driver either when he's approaching a red or a buffer stop, both disallowed, there's no other way to find out.

Of course my route knowledge tells me where and when it's safe to do this. Whether the route is correct or not is irrelevant, what the route is, however, is rather important! If just as an example you're taking a 3 car train into Grantham and you get routed into the bay, you are required to open the doors on the left rather than the right and make an announcement about trains passing through platform two at over 100 mph as its very narrow etc. As it was how I was trained to work, and competence managers do it for us when sat on the second man's side, I'm happy to assume its quite reasonable for us to check where we are going before we hit the platform so as to be located correctly to see the train in. It also goes without saying that there doesn't tend to be large amounts of vegetation on the approach to large junctions and if there was I wouldn't put my head out into it!

 

[notadriver]

Whilst I don't want further DOO extensions I'm all for drivers releasing the doors at stations so the guard doesn't have to spend time getting to the panel and checking it's safe to release the doors. As for theatre box indications sometimes even the driver can't see what route is being given if the formation is short and the terminal platform is long. Accepting a wrong route is down to the driver in the same way early departures are down to that guard.

As for being buzzed up on the move I won't answer if isn't safe - I think conductors should feel free to buzz up. In my TOC other drivers are allowed to ride up front so I don't see the difference.

 

[ExRes]

As for being buzzed up on the move I won't answer if isn't safe - I think conductors should feel free to buzz up. In my TOC other drivers are allowed to ride up front so I don't see the difference.

As long as the Guard/TM uses some common sense, I've had them buzzing away like mad over something totally unimportant and carrying on if I didn't answer seemingly oblivious to the fact that I might be doing something slightly more important at the time

One would always hope that another Driver in the cab knows how to behave and is, therefore, a totally different kettle of fish to a Guard/TM who cannot see out of the Drivers window

 

[LowLevel]

In which case the several occasions I've buzzed my driver to move up immediately become safety incidents as they've released the doors off the platform (if I report them!). There's also several stations I have to work local door only which you can't do on trains where the driver releases the doors.

I'm not fussed about whether the route is right or not - I do however need to know my platform to go about my duties. I buzz the driver when I feel it necessary - but our SMS tells us not to buzz the driver when you believe he is dealing with a red signal, a speed restriction or a station stop.

I only have to check it's safe to release the doors if I believe the train is not correctly platformed - otherwise I can release them all according to my route knowledge.

 

[notadriver]

I had a guard up front helping me examine the line a few days ago. Can't see why they aren't allowed to travel up front as drivers do ...

 

[O L Leigh]

Whilst I don't want further DOO extensions I'm all for drivers releasing the doors at stations so the guard doesn't have to spend time getting to the panel and checking it's safe to release the doors.

I'm not.

There have been incidents where drivers have released the doors when the train had not been correctly platformed, and I'm not just talking about DOO services either. 99 times out of 100 it's no faster for the driver to do it either, except at those times where the guard is dealing with someone awkward and, if that's the case, you're likely to be there a while anyway as they won't be despatching you until whatever issue has been dealt with.

Give the guard a door key and let them carry on with their job.

O L Leigh

 

[PermitToTravel]

In the meantime, at least one class of LU stock has been fitted with Automatic Door Opening. It is not yet enabled however (I think due to union concerns).

 

[O L Leigh]

LU is a simpler system which makes such innovations easier to implement. Fewer stations, no variation in rolling stock, higher passenger density and so on.

O L Leigh

 

[Captain Chaos]

LU is a simpler system which makes such innovations easier to implement. Fewer stations, no variation in rolling stock, higher passenger density and so on.

O L Leigh

Indeed. Automatically opening doors would make sense on such an operation, however the union concerns aren't unfounded. I believe the ASDO on SWT has had it's rollout suspended due to an error. What that error is, I cannot remember. Was some time ago. Not sure if it's been rectified or not. But their concerns are understandable.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Those aren't really barriers. It would be easy for RSSB to define a common standard for train to station communication gear and Network Rail to ban non-fitted trains from their network.

Automatic Door Opening is admittedly unnecessary, but systems to stop doors being opened away from platforms, or to allow departing trains to be emergency stopped, are absolutely possible with variations in rolling stock, and would come with actual tangible safety benefits.

 

[TheEdge]

Those aren't really barriers. It would be easy for RSSB to define a common standard for train to station communication gear and Network Rail to ban non-fitted trains from their network.

Easy. Just ban the rolling stock. No trains to run, no problem. Sorted.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Yes, as we all know it is completely impossible for new technologies to be introduced to rolling stock. This is why we do not have AWS, TPWS, CSR, GSMR, etc

 

[TheEdge]

Yes, as we all know it is completely impossible for new technologies to be introduced to rolling stock. This is why we do not have AWS, TPWS, CSR, GSMR, etc

There is a significant difference between adding some relatively simple systems and something as complex as auto doors and or ATO. AWS and TPWS are glorified transmitter and receiver systems while CSR and GSM-R are just radio sets.

The fact they can all be easily bolted onto a steam loco shows how simple they are to fit.

 

[PermitToTravel]

What is your source for that assertion? I did say that automatic door operation would not be necessary on NR. A system preventing wrong-side openings, on the other hand, or emergency stop buttons, could be "bolted on" to any train exactly as easily as AWS could

 

[Matt Taylor]

I believe the ASDO on SWT has had it's rollout suspended due to an error. What that error is, I cannot remember. Was some time ago. Not sure if it's been rectified or not. But their concerns are understandable.

ASDO on SWT was always planned to be implemented at the end of May 2014 however it has been pushed back to late August due to delays in getting the guards trained.

 

[Captain Chaos]

ASDO on SWT was always planned to be implemented at the end of May 2014 however it has been pushed back to late August due to delays in getting the guards trained.

Oh, ok. I heard different. If that's the case then I stand corrected. Thanks for the info!

 

[455driver]

I think you are missing the point. so, what could happen to a guard if he or she stuck their head out of a train window whilst on the move down a platform? Is there , for example , a potential for some idiot who has just missed the train taking a swing at the guard whilst passing? Can you see what I m getting at ?

As so often stated on this forum, mitigating one risk often introduces another

A few years ago at New Malden (I think) some neanderthal took a swing at the guard through the open cab window on a 455 but the bloke lost his balance and ended up falling between the train and the platform, the guard put the brake straight into emergency but the bloke lost one of his legs before the train stopped.

Never underestimate the ignorance, arrogance and stupidity of the 'great' British public.

 

[Moonshot]

A few years ago at New Malden (I think) some neanderthal took a swing at the guard through the open cab window on a 455 but the bloke lost his balance and ended up falling between the train and the platform, the guard put the brake straight into emergency but the bloke lost one of his legs before the train stopped.

Never underestimate the ignorance, arrogance and stupidity of the 'great' British public.

I have heard a few stories like that , though not quite as severe as the outcome above. But as I was saying before in response to a point about droplights, on paper it seems simple having these fitted as standard on all stock, but the culture we live under nowadays always brings about a risk inherent with what seems a likely solution to a problem. Oddly enough I caught a glancing blow from vegetation today.

 

[NSEFAN]

Oddly enough I caught a glancing blow from vegetation today.

What kind?

 

[ExRes]

What kind?

Whatever type it was it's obvious it was grown using this product

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...0YHIBQ&usg=AFQjCNEcFF3sVixObCumIxQENbzgoOTDGQ

 

[maniacmartin]

I would argue that some of the systems that Fahad mentions as being used in the Underground, such as automatic prevention of wrong door opening, would be a good idea to fit even if a line is not converted to DOO and conventional guards are retained. I can imagine it being especially useful on lines with platforms of varying lengths.

 

[Matt Taylor]

A few years ago at New Malden (I think) some neanderthal took a swing at the guard through the open cab window on a 455 but the bloke lost his balance and ended up falling between the train and the platform, the guard put the brake straight into emergency but the bloke lost one of his legs before the train stopped.

Never underestimate the ignorance, arrogance and stupidity of the 'great' British public.

With respect there was rather a bit more to it than that-but that's not for public discussion. Nevertheless people continue to lash out at moving trains with no thought of the consequences and they continue to run alongside a departing train while looking to their left/right at the friend or relative who has boarded the train, which is another good way of ending up beneath the wheels of a moving train.

 

[muz379]

All this nonsense about risk assessing the droplight window is going nowhere , Surely when you are carrying out said risk assement you should take into account the level of skill of the people who will be using said equipment - So the guard who will be using the droplight is trained in its use and is aware of the risks associated with it (I have been told by at least one manager and a conductor trainer to watch out for people trying to grab onto , climb into or spit/assault you at the droplight )

Whereas navigating the PTI is done by the untrained potentially unskilled public who have never boarded a train before . I saw some members of the public trying to race a departing train down a platform at Preston the other week , I would never do that because I am aware of the risks . But the public just aren't aware of the massive risk they are taking .

Its like the difference in risk between giving a skilled carpenter or a classroom full of school kids power tools .

 

[Moonshot]

All this nonsense about risk assessing the droplight window is going nowhere , Surely when you are carrying out said risk assement you should take into account the level of skill of the people who will be using said equipment - So the guard who will be using the droplight is trained in its use and is aware of the risks associated with it (I have been told by at least one manager and a conductor trainer to watch out for people trying to grab onto , climb into or spit/assault you at the droplight )

Whereas navigating the PTI is done by the untrained potentially unskilled public who have never boarded a train before . I saw some members of the public trying to race a departing train down a platform at Preston the other week , I would never do that because I am aware of the risks . But the public just aren't aware of the massive risk they are taking .

Its like the difference in risk between giving a skilled carpenter or a classroom full of school kids power tools .

See post 498 - where a guard is stating there is no risk , but you yourself mention the risk of assault above ( which is what I mentioned as well ).

You may wish to do some further research on this, its a major topic with both the RSSB and RAIB. I couldnt help but notice however a comment from the RAIB which goes along the lines of " any improvement in safety at the PTI is likely to come from a technical solution "

 

[muz379]

See post 498 - where a guard is stating there is no risk , but you yourself mention the risk of assault above ( which is what I mentioned as well ).

You may wish to do some further research on this, its a major topic with both the RSSB and RAIB. I couldnt help but notice however a comment from the RAIB which goes along the lines of " any improvement in safety at the PTI is likely to come from a technical solution "

There is a risk of an assault happening but it is so minute and can be negated by the fact that the guard is trained in the use and dangers of the droplight . Risk assessments are not just about identifying risks but also about putting measures in place to manage them . Health and safety isnt about preventing risks being taken its about putting control measures in place to manage them and prevent the taking of a risk leading to an accident .

For example until not very long ago with the advent of GSMR if the driver needed to speak to the signaler he had to climb out of the cab . A risk assessment would identify countless risks with this but he was equipped with safety shoes , and instructed on how to correctly climb out of the cab to manage the risks associated with that activity . If the droplight window was so dangerous how come traction that is still has one available for use during dispatch is still in use . Slam doors on the 150/1 also have a massive amount of risk associated with them . But control measures are in place to manage that risk

As for the technological solution . I have already said that owing to the fact that dispatchers have the best view in the house I would support a method of dispatch that places dispatchers on every platform managing every dispatch with a button to stop the train in an emergency ,leaving the driver free to drive the train . that would fall under the description of technical solution . This however would not cut costs .

You are talking about the risk from reintroducing droplights . Lets risk assess a DOO soloution that places monitors in the cab with bodyside cameras relaying images of the dispatch . So many risks surely ?
1) The driver could be distracted by something happening on the line ahead and misses a potentially dangerous situation developing on the monitor -Person dead under a train
2)The driver could be distracted by something happening on the monitor and misses a potentially dangerous situation in the form of a trespasser off the edge of the platform -Person dead under a train
3)The bodyside camera could have been adjusted wrong and have a blind spot which means the driver misses someone with their coat stuck in the door -person dead under a train
4)The bodyside camera has switched off at 5mph and the driver has not seen someone train surfing - Person dead under a train
5)The sunlight is too bright and is dazzling the camera at the end of the 6th coach - the view out of the window is also effected by sunlight , the driver sets off thinking it is all clear -person dead under a train

Need we carry on ?

To carry on arguing that widening DOO does not compromise safety is futile
To argue that we should implement DOO thus reducing safety in the name of cutting costs is a reasonable argument -Not one I agree with but I can see why you would reach that conclusion.


Said it before will say it again , factually DOO reduces safety , I dont think it can be implemented on the northern franchise and cut costs or massively raise revenue and so we are going to reduce safety and not save any money which is loose loose

 

[Moonshot]

There is a risk of an assault happening but it is so minute and can be negated by the fact that the guard is trained in the use and dangers of the droplight . Risk assessments are not just about identifying risks but also about putting measures in place to manage them . Health and safety isnt about preventing risks being taken its about putting control measures in place to manage them and prevent the taking of a risk leading to an accident .

For example until not very long ago with the advent of GSMR if the driver needed to speak to the signaler he had to climb out of the cab . A risk assessment would identify countless risks with this but he was equipped with safety shoes , and instructed on how to correctly climb out of the cab to manage the risks associated with that activity . If the droplight window was so dangerous how come traction that is still has one available for use during dispatch is still in use . Slam doors on the 150/1 also have a massive amount of risk associated with them . But control measures are in place to manage that risk

As for the technological solution . I have already said that owing to the fact that dispatchers have the best view in the house I would support a method of dispatch that places dispatchers on every platform managing every dispatch with a button to stop the train in an emergency ,leaving the driver free to drive the train . that would fall under the description of technical solution . This however would not cut costs .

You are talking about the risk from reintroducing droplights . Lets risk assess a DOO soloution that places monitors in the cab with bodyside cameras relaying images of the dispatch . So many risks surely ?
1) The driver could be distracted by something happening on the line ahead and misses a potentially dangerous situation developing on the monitor -Person dead under a train
2)The driver could be distracted by something happening on the monitor and misses a potentially dangerous situation in the form of a trespasser off the edge of the platform -Person dead under a train
3)The bodyside camera could have been adjusted wrong and have a blind spot which means the driver misses someone with their coat stuck in the door -person dead under a train
4)The bodyside camera has switched off at 5mph and the driver has not seen someone train surfing - Person dead under a train
5)The sunlight is too bright and is dazzling the camera at the end of the 6th coach - the view out of the window is also effected by sunlight , the driver sets off thinking it is all clear -person dead under a train

Need we carry on ?

To carry on arguing that widening DOO does not compromise safety is futile
To argue that reducing safety in the name of cutting costs is a reasonable argument -Not one I agree with but I can see why you would reach that conclusion

And i could do just the same with a guard in place!! But in any event, it matters not one jot what me and you think.....DOO is already in place on 30% of the UKs rail services, and is also a feature of the upcoming Northern Franchise renewal.....

 

[muz379]

And i could do just the same with a guard in place!! But in any event, it matters not one jot what me and you think.....DOO is already in place on 30% of the UKs rail services, and is also a feature of the upcoming Northern Franchise renewal.....

Yes we could go on all day about the risks with the guard , the difference being for the majority of the railway(and the franchise we are talking about ) it is the point that we are starting from , and has been the established working practice for a number of years ,it is the base of which we are comparing the safety of a new method of work

depending on how long you have been on the railway you might have picked up that things take an age to change on the railway and I dont think the move to DOO will be any different , in fact such a massive move should take a very long time .

Think you are jumping the gun a little bit/or misunderstanding what is happening in terms of the franchise

The DFT has said as a preliminary comment that it wishes for the next prospective bidders on the franchise to outline plans for a move to DOO . This has been opened up to public consultation and what they actually decide for the next franchise is yet to be set in stone . What actually happens with this depends heavily on the outcome of GE in may 2015 , which in turn depends heavily on the Scottish independence referendum

I agree it does not matter one tiny bit what we think , but all the same its nice and relevant to have discussions that effect both our working environment as well as the railway as a whole as a member of rail staff on a rail forum .

 

[Moonshot]

Scots to vote " NO " .....and another hung parliament

 

[muz379]

Scots to vote " NO " .....and another hung parliament

I think Scots to vote no and a slight majority lab government maybe a gov by about 10 seats