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Should we have DOO?

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LowLevel

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I've still never had an answer to the question "Why is it mandatory to the point of being a serious disciplinary offence for a guard or dispatcher to observe a train fully leave the platform, but it's fine for a driver doing DOO self dispatch just to check and then clear off?".

I suspect the answer is because is it would make DOO infeasible which is a perfect confirmation of cost over safety. It would be nice for this question to be posed to some managers and officials in a public setting, perhaps by the families of people seriously injured or killed during DOO dispatch, or poorly designed trains that afford no opening windows for the guard.
 
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Moonshot

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I've still never had an answer to the question "Why is it mandatory to the point of being a serious disciplinary offence for a guard or dispatcher to observe a train fully leave the platform, but it's fine for a driver doing DOO self dispatch just to check and then clear off?".

I suspect the answer is because is it would make DOO infeasible which is a perfect confirmation of cost over safety. It would be nice for this question to be posed to some managers and officials in a public setting, perhaps by the families of people seriously injured or killed during DOO dispatch, or poorly designed trains that afford no opening windows for the guard.


How many incidents has there been when someone has been killed or seriously injured during a DOO dispatch? And how many with Guards on board?
 

NSEFAN

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Strictly speaking, every decision and procedure will ultimately put cost before safety since achieving perfect safety is not possible. Given that rail travel is still many times safer than road travel despite DOO suggests that it is not as bad as it is sometimes made out to be (ignoring other factors like customer service). Even if DOO does increase the risk of incidents it is still better than road transport in the wider scheme of things. That said, the railways aught to be keeping tabs on DOO related incidents and there doesn't seem to be any actual statistics, at least not in the public domain, which is somewhat concerning.

As an aside, how do people feel about DOO freight trains? Would people feel safer if all freight still has guards or secondmen?
 

LowLevel

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How many incidents has there been when someone has been killed or seriously injured during a DOO dispatch? And how many with Guards on board?

In what way does your question answer my question which is 'why is the rulebook different for the two procedures'. The changes to the guards rules were brought in after James St. Why is the same issue not applicable to drivers.
 

Moonshot

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Where appropriate, the RAIB investigation reports will include recommendations to improve safety. The RAIB can direct recommendations to any organisation or person it thinks is best placed to implement the changes required (the ‘end implementer’). This includes railway and non-railway, private and public sector organisations. Those persons or organisations will be informed of the recommendations through involvement in the investigation and/or the RAIB’s consultation and being formally sent a copy of the final report by the RAIB.

The recommendations are also addressed to the relevant safety authorities*, or to other public bodies where appropriate, who are required to ensure that recommendations are duly considered and where appropriate acted upon. The safety authorities will want to ensure that the recommendations have been considered in accordance with the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSWA), which requires duty holders to reduce the risk of their activities to as low as reasonably practicable (ALARP)** taking into account, levels of risk, costs of mitigation and good practice. They are also required to report back to the RAIB details of any implementation measures, or the reasons why no implementation measures are being taken. The RAIB has no role or statutory powers to follow up on the implementation of recommendations, other than if it becomes relevant as part of a subsequent investigation, so this feedback is important in providing information and transparency on the safety improvements and changing environment resulting from RAIB’s investigations. Full details of the recommendations made in previous years which have not been closed by the relevant safety authority or public body are published at the end of each year in the most recent Annual Report Section 2.



Above is a copy/paste of the " recommendation process " as per RAIB website. Now have the RAIB ever recommended a return to a Saftey Critical Guard on the train currently DOO when they have investigated an incident. If they have, I m pretty certain the RMT would be shouting from the rooftops about it - and indeed they were given that opportunity when they were invited to submit evidence to the Rail2020 inquiry in front of the Transport Select Committee.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In what way does your question answer my question which is 'why is the rulebook different for the two procedures'. The changes to the guards rules were brought in after James St. Why is the same issue not applicable to drivers.

I ve no idea why the rulebook is different - I dont set it and neither do you. However I would have thought it was impractical for a driver to stand at a local door observing the platform whilst driving a train. I ve never looked at the rules governing DOO as per rule book.
 

LowLevel

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You're still avoiding the question which I shall take to mean you can't answer it. To provide backup for my own point, here is a useful quote from an RAIB report into a life changing injuries incident with a DOO train at Charing Cross - which could have been prevented with a guard hanging out of a window to drop the brake rather than relying on a passcom activation by a passenger - or indeed a stop button for the dispatcher:

"59
Observation of the platform/train interface by a member of staff (driver, guard or platform dispatcher) during the departure of a train has the potential to prevent this type of accident from resulting in serious injury if the person observing has the ability to stop the train quickly. Recommendations 1 and 3 of the RAIB’s report into the James Street accident (see paragraph 68) cover the desirability of continuous surveillance of the platform/train interface."

http://raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/130725_R102013_Charing_Cross.pdf

It basically says someone should be observing the platform with an ability to stop the train. Poorly designed trains notwithstanding, provision of a guard or dispatcher seems the best bet as the industry seems unwilling to make provision for the driver to do it as it believes they should be observing the line ahead.

So the RAIB repeatedly recommends platform observation is looked into and yet for self dispatch DOO services the industry doesn't appear to be acting.

As an adherent to the rulebook I consider myself fully entitled to question it.
 
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Moonshot

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You're still avoiding the question which I shall take to mean you can't answer it. To provide backup for my own point, here is a useful quote from an RAIB report into a life changing injuries incident with a DOO train at Charing Cross - which could have been prevented with a guard hanging out of a window to drop the brake rather than relying on a passcom activation by a passenger - or indeed a stop button for the dispatcher:

"59
Observation of the platform/train interface by a member of staff (driver, guard or platform dispatcher) during the departure of a train has the potential to prevent this type of accident from resulting in serious injury if the person observing has the ability to stop the train quickly. Recommendations 1 and 3 of the RAIB’s report into the James Street accident (see paragraph 68) cover the desirability of continuous surveillance of the platform/train interface."

http://raib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/130725_R102013_Charing_Cross.pdf

It basically says someone should be observing the platform with an ability to stop the train. Poorly designed trains notwithstanding, provision of a guard or dispatcher seems the best bet as the industry seems unwilling to make provision for the driver to do it as it believes they should be observing the line ahead.

So the RAIB repeatedly recommends platform observation is looked into and yet for self dispatch DOO services the industry doesn't appear to be acting.

As an adherent to the rulebook I consider myself fully entitled to question it.


I answered your question - " I ve no idea why the rule book is different ". However what I will do later is have a look at that particular point for you and come back this evening - ok?
 

LowLevel

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I'd be interested to read your viewpoint. The position of the 2 very different methods of working (one mandatory to observe, one fine not to) is a discrepancy I simply find very interesting. I'm threatened with everything up to prison if it goes wrong at briefings if I don't adhere but no one seems bothered if you just make it DOO self dispatch - it's still a platform people on it, just their continued safety seems less important for the self dispatch DOO lines.
 

fowler9

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I'd be interested to read your viewpoint. The position of the 2 very different methods of working (one mandatory to observe, one fine not to) is a discrepancy I simply find very interesting. I'm threatened with everything up to prison if it goes wrong at briefings if I don't adhere but no one seems bothered if you just make it DOO self dispatch - it's still a platform people on it, just their continued safety seems less important for the self dispatch DOO lines.

Sadly not adding anything to this but I agree, it is a very interesting question. Didn't the guard in my home town of Liverpool end up in court when someone died on the loop line? If it was DOO there would be a chance of the same outcome as in loss of life but no one would end up in court.
 

O L Leigh

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Now have the RAIB ever recommended a return to a Saftey Critical Guard on the train currently DOO when they have investigated an incident.

As fair as I am aware, never. However, I already pointed out that it is not the RAIB's role to set policy. That role is filled by ATOC and RSSB. In addition, RAIB has criticised DOO despatch methods in several incident investigations that might just have never happened had there been a safety-critical guard on board. The lack of any such recommendation does not form a tacit endorsement of DOO as a safe method of working, especially during despatch.

As to supervision of the PTI, I have already asked the question just where you expect the driver to be looking as the train is leaving the platform. It is simply not possible to expect a driver to carry out this role, even with the advent of bodyside DOO cameras and in-cab monitors (which is a facility only fitted to Electrostar EMUs and nothing else). Shouldn't the driver be concentrating on observing the line ahead, watching the signals and controlling the train speed rather than having to squint at up to 12 small images of the platform? It is not uncommon to leave Liv St on a single yellow. The next signal is at the entrance to Bishopsgate Tunnel and is not fitted with AWS, so you really do have to watch out ahead.

Didn't the guard in my home town of Liverpool end up in court when someone died on the loop line? If it was DOO there would be a chance of the same outcome as in loss of life but no one would end up in court.

No. This isn't a question of whether or not someone ends up in court but of whether or not a person would have lost their life or not.

The guard has ended up languishing at Her Majesty's pleasure because he failed to discharge his duties properly. Had he done so the young lady might never have fallen between the train and platform and lived to see another day. Had it been a DOO service the driver would almost certainly carried on to the next station blissfully unaware of the tragedy.

OK, I appreciate that this thread now runs to more than 30 pages, but can we go back and re-read it again before posting more questions. It would prevent this becoming endlessly circular.

O L Leigh
 
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455driver

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It seems unlikely that future implementations of DOO would use things like platform-side monitors, they having been replaced as the technology of choice by video links to equipment in the driving cab.

Which switch off when the train reaches 5mph (or something like that).
 

fowler9

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As fair as I am aware, never. However, I already pointed out that it is not the RAIB's role to set policy. That role is filled by ATOC and RSSB. In addition, RAIB has criticised DOO despatch methods in several incident investigations that might just have never happened had there been a safety-critical guard on board. The lack of any such recommendation does not form a tacit endorsement of DOO as a safe method of working, especially during despatch.

As to supervision of the PTI, I have already asked the question just where you expect the driver to be looking as the train is leaving the platform. It is simply not possible to expect a driver to carry out this role, even with the advent of bodyside DOO cameras and in-cab monitors (which is a facility only fitted to Electrostar EMUs and nothing else). Shouldn't the driver be concentrating on observing the line ahead, watching the signals and controlling the train speed rather than having to squint at up to 12 small images of the platform? It is not uncommon to leave Liv St on a single yellow. The next signal is at the entrance to Bishopsgate Tunnel and is not fitted with AWS, so you really do have to watch out ahead.



No. This isn't a question of whether or not someone ends up in court but of whether or not a person would have lost their life or not.

The guard has ended up languishing at Her Majesty's pleasure because he failed to discharge his duties properly. Had he done so the young lady might never have fallen between the train and platform and lived to see another day. Had it been a DOO service the driver would almost certainly carried on to the next station blissfully unaware of the tragedy.

OK, I appreciate that this thread now runs to more than 30 pages, but can we go back and re-read it again before posting more questions. It would prevent this becoming endlessly circular.

O L Leigh

I think it is a question of whether or not someone would have ended up in court. I actually tried to avoid saying the same thing would have happened with DOO as regards loss of life because I cannot say that with certainty. Just that with DOO there would be no court case for the TOC to deal with.
 

HSTEd

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It appears likely DOO will not be able to move forward until ETCS rollout gets somewhere, at which point we may move to ATO anyway to fit in more trains.

Once ATO and DOO is in place, it does not seem unreasonable that the driver could be allowed to monitor appropriate screens during train departure, having ascertained that the line is clear of obstructions before pressing the 'Go' button.

And as for cabside DOO equipment only being fitted to Electrostars... not much has been done in terms of new stock for DOO routes since then.
I would wager that most DOO services are either operated by ex BR units or by some flavour of Electrostar.
 
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notadriver

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No I don't see ATO being the norm even when ETCS is up and running. It is desirable for the driver to be driving on a main line railway.
 

Captain Chaos

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Can't see ATO on mainline services for some time. Crossrail aside the investment required will be massive and I'm not sure the technology is there yet anyway for proper ATO on mainline. I can only see a push towards it once capacity becomes a serious issue.
 

68000

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It appears likely DOO will not be able to move forward until ETCS rollout gets somewhere, at which point we may move to ATO anyway to fit in more trains.

I doubt it will be reliant on the rollout of ETCS


And as for cabside DOO equipment only being fitted to Electrostars... not much has been done in terms of new stock for DOO routes since then.
I would wager that most DOO services are either operated by ex BR units or by some flavour of Electrostar.

Class 334 & 380 have in cab DOO equipment and are used on existing & new DOO routes
 

HSTEd

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Can't see ATO on mainline services for some time. Crossrail aside the investment required will be massive and I'm not sure the technology is there yet anyway for proper ATO on mainline. I can only see a push towards it once capacity becomes a serious issue.

ATO is surprisingly easy to implement once you have cab signalling in place. It is far less complex than say.... moving block signalling or similar.

Essentially it just has to obey the information that is fed to it by the existing cab signalling infrastructure.

It will also be deployed on Thameslink and apparently HS2 so it seems its future is bright and lots of experience will have been gained with the technology by then.
 

Captain Chaos

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ATO is surprisingly easy to implement once you have cab signalling in place. It is far less complex than say.... moving block signalling or similar.

Essentially it just has to obey the information that is fed to it by the existing cab signalling infrastructure.

It will also be deployed on Thameslink and apparently HS2 so it seems its future is bright and lots of experience will have been gained with the technology by then.

Which level of ATO are you referring to though? As far as I'm concerned proper ATO is where the train does all the driving itself and has no requirement for the driver. I see no reason to implement ATO on the mainlines for the forseeable future. You won't save any money and it's not going to be that great a benefit.
 

notadriver

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ATO is surprisingly easy to implement once you have cab signalling in place. It is far less complex than say.... moving block signalling or similar.



Essentially it just has to obey the information that is fed to it by the existing cab signalling infrastructure.



It will also be deployed on Thameslink and apparently HS2 so it seems its future is bright and lots of experience will have been gained with the technology by then.


It's easy to implement on a railway that's non complex (something like c2c) and uses the same (modern) rolling stock. That's not going to be the case for decades on the main line. Have you ever driven a main line train on the main line ?
 

Bald Rick

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It's easy to implement on a railway that's non complex (something like c2c) and uses the same (modern) rolling stock. That's not going to be the case for decades on the main line. Have you ever driven a main line train on the main line ?

ATO is easy to implement on any railway with L2 ETCS. All the on board computer needs to do, in principle, is follow the speed supervision curve and the station calls.

True, it is more difficult to implement ETCS on complex railways with different stock types, but that is largely solved and is coming to the GWML and ECML before this decade is out.
 

notadriver

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They won't be running ATO on those lines by the end of the decade no matter how easy you think it is to implement it.
 

HSTEd

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It's easy to implement on a railway that's non complex (something like c2c) and uses the same (modern) rolling stock.

Actually the layout and rolling stock homogeniety is completely irrelevant for implementing ATO on an ETCS type line.

Essentially the controller reads the relevant information [current line speed, current train speed, next speed restriction, distance to next speed restriction] from the ETCS console.

It can optionally use an elevation map of the route the train is travelling over to determine stopping distance, or simply assume a worst case initial figure for beginning braking (assume a downhill gradient of the maximum on the route initially).
It would then, when the speed curve thus generated determined that braking must commence apply the brakes at the programmed initial value and continually redetermine speed and required braking effort, varying it on the fly to achieve a stop at the required position.

This will occur in the same way no matter how complex the layout it, all that matters is the distance to the next speed restriction, the gradients of the line (and even that can be excluded using a closed loop control system) and the initial and final desired speeds.

While the greatest benefits are only arrived at when the stock on the route is uniform it is not necessary for this to be the case for the system to be implemented.
It is not even necessary for the route to be entirely ATO operated.

This is what sets ETCS based systems apart from earlier systems such as those used on metro lines in the mid 20th Century which would just directly control each train using a central computer system - which did require those restrictions you mention to be practical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They won't be running ATO on those lines by the end of the decade no matter how easy you think it is to implement it.

Probably not, more down to our friends at ASLEF than any actually technical issues.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which level of ATO are you referring to though? As far as I'm concerned proper ATO is where the train does all the driving itself and has no requirement for the driver. I see no reason to implement ATO on the mainlines for the forseeable future. You won't save any money and it's not going to be that great a benefit.

This is often referred to as 'UTO' or 'Unattended Train Operation'.

I am talking about the type of ATO used on the Victoria line, where the driver starts the train with a 'Go' button but otherwise just waits to smash the emergency brake trigger if the train goes around a corner and sees an obstruction or whatnot.

If pattern recognition improves a bit more - based on the tech of those Google cars - then you might be able to take over the obstruction detection from the driver, leaving them with not much else to do.
Would probably mutate into a Guard/Driver hybrid where they remain in the cab as a final safeguard but spend most of their time doing a variety of Guard-esque roles such as announcements and helping with evacuations.

Either way, interesting times are ahead.
 

O L Leigh

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Can we split the discussion about ATO from the discussion about DOO, please.

I think it is a question of whether or not someone would have ended up in court. I actually tried to avoid saying the same thing would have happened with DOO as regards loss of life because I cannot say that with certainty. Just that with DOO there would be no court case for the TOC to deal with.

Let me get this straight. You're more concerned about the fact that there might not be a court case than you are about the difference a guard can make in a situation like this.

You cannot change the outcome from this specific situation. However, if the guard had discharged his duties correctly there almost certainly wouldn't have been any incident.

O L Leigh
 
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Moonshot

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The objective of this recommendation is for the rail industry to be provided with guidance on reducing risk at the platform/train interface.The Office of Rail Regulation should, in conjunction with railway industry parties, ensure that the findings of this report are taken into account in published guidance on the types of measures that promote the safe movement of trains from platforms through the adequate control of risk.The areas that should be the subject of particular consideration in such guidance are:a. equipment and methods which enable the person responsible for dispatch to observe the platform/train interface without interruption for as long as possible, ideally until the train has left the platform;b. equipment and methods which enable the person responsible for dispatch to stop a train quickly in an emergency; and c. adaptation of trains and infrastructure to reduce the size of the platform edge gap when this is possible and appropriate, for example in connection with investment in new trains and infrastructure


Ok - in answer to the post earlier today, I ve spent some time ( inbetween World Cup !!) having a look at some RAIB stuff - the above quote is attributed to them.

A key point from this is - who is the best person to observe the full length of a platform when train is departing?. Logically that would be a despatcher - and indeed despatchers at stations which I visit in my duties do this as a matter of routine. But of course despatchers dont operate at every station.....and guards dont have a full view of a platform anyway as I can testify. This leads to a conclusion that a technical solution will apply.
 

PermitToTravel

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How about cameras along every platform that can see every door (like on the underground), but monitored in a centralised control centre (possibly outsourced abroad) that can remotely send CD/RA/STOP signals to a screen in the driving cab?
 

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I've only read parts of this thread so I've probably missed the answer to my own question, which is, how does the person responsible for dispatch stop a train quickly, or at all, once it's underway ?

If it's a DOO train does the Driver watch a cab monitor until the entire train is clear of the platform thereby ignoring everything in front of him ?

If it's a 222 type unit, once dispatched neither the Driver or TM has a view of the platform leaving only the platform dispatcher to stop the train, how ?

Seems to me that the only safe dispatch method is by Guard/TM on a train with drop windows enabling the Guard/TM to have instant contact with the Driver, does that mean all other types are unsafe and should be withdrawn ?
 

Captain Chaos

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How about cameras along every platform that can see every door (like on the underground), but monitored in a centralised control centre (possibly outsourced abroad) that can remotely send CD/RA/STOP signals to a screen in the driving cab?

Why on earth would you want to outsource it to another country?
 

Moonshot

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I've only read parts of this thread so I've probably missed the answer to my own question, which is, how does the person responsible for dispatch stop a train quickly, or at all, once it's underway ?

If it's a DOO train does the Driver watch a cab monitor until the entire train is clear of the platform thereby ignoring everything in front of him ?

If it's a 222 type unit, once dispatched neither the Driver or TM has a view of the platform leaving only the platform dispatcher to stop the train, how ?

Seems to me that the only safe dispatch method is by Guard/TM on a train with drop windows enabling the Guard/TM to have instant contact with the Driver, does that mean all other types are unsafe and should be withdrawn ?

What sort of risk do you then import if all trains had drop windows...I assume you mean for the guard to pop his head out to observe ?
 

ExRes

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How about cameras along every platform that can see every door (like on the underground), but monitored in a centralised control centre (possibly outsourced abroad) that can remotely send CD/RA/STOP signals to a screen in the driving cab?

An interesting idea but how could it possibly be done, think of the number of people required to monitor every dispatch at each platform at Clapham Junction for example
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What sort of risk do you then import if all trains had drop windows...I assume you mean for the guard to pop his head out to observe ?

What other method is there to see an incident and then stop the train in an emergency ?
 
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