Should we have DOO?

[Captain Chaos]

Many people on these forums state that they illicitly travel for free because they will help out if necessary. Does the answer involve DOO with increased travel rights for RPIs / on train staff?

Not really. How would you know they are there in non uniform? They could just sit there and do nothing. Nobody would ever know.

 

[muz379]

Ok I ll slightly re phrase that......how much of the revenue collected by that particular guard would not have found its way to the tills IF he hadnt carried out revenue duties on the train. I agree about the bit re queues.....and of course a conductor can help reduce those queues provided he or she does revenue duties.

I dont even agree with that , how many times have you worked a train into victoria from the west in the peak which empties out when you get to salford central which doesn't have barriers ,

People will get off and walk to town or get a bus to town if its cheaper than staying on and having to buy a ticket for their train journey

 

[Bald Rick]

Why do more than what you are contractually obliged to do?

To help the customer?

Anyway, I agree that we need an on board staff presence - not necessarily on every train - but certainly on most trains. I hold a view though that in this day and age, said staff member need not be required to operate the doors.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Ok I ll slightly re phrase that......how much of the revenue collected by that particular guard would not have found its way to the tills IF he hadnt carried out revenue duties on the train. I agree about the bit re queues.....and of course a conductor can help reduce those queues provided he or she does revenue duties.

At a guess? Probably 30%. Concentrating on this point for a moment. The biggest problem with barriers is the reliance on people being honest. At least on train you have a fairly good idea who has got on where. Ticket barriers assist us and vice versa. If we all stopped taking money on a Monday morning, the barriers wouldn't cope. For as long as we have an open system, this will always be the case. ITSO might change things in time. But even then, there will still be.opportunities to concentrate on other revenue issues. They WILL occur still. You could argue that it will shift our focus from selling to prosecuting. ITSO is not a magic bullet and isn't self policing. People will still blag it (actually I think it will increase but that's just my opinion).
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To help the customer?

Anyway, I agree that we need an on board staff presence - not necessarily on every train - but certainly on most trains. I hold a view though that in this day and age, said staff member need not be required to operate the doors.

Indeed, but of course some people won't see it that way!

 

[Moonshot]

At a guess? Probably 30%. Concentrating on this point for a moment. The biggest problem with barriers is the reliance on people being honest. At least on train you have a fairly good idea who has got on where. Ticket barriers assist us and vice versa. If we all stopped taking money on a Monday morning, the barriers wouldn't cope. For as long as we have an open system, this will always be the case. ITSO might change things in time. But even then, there will still be.opportunities to concentrate on other revenue issues. They WILL occur still. You could argue that it will shift our focus from selling to prosecuting. ITSO is not a magic bullet and isn't self policing. People will still blag it (actually I think it will increase but that's just my opinion).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Indeed, but of course some people won't see it that way!

I dont quite get the bit about being honest and barriers?

 

[68000]

I note that Northern are altering the Class 319 units from DOO to Guard operated so no change for a few years yet

 

[Captain Chaos]

I dont quite get the bit about being honest and barriers?

Passenger comes from Hungerford. Arrives at Reading and asks for a single from Theale. How would you prove otherwise? You have 30 people queuing behind them. This can and does of.course happen on Guard routes of course. But I'd wager it happens more commonly on DOO routes.

 

[Moonshot]

Passenger comes from Hungerford. Arrives at Reading and asks for a single from Theale. How would you prove otherwise? You have 30 people queuing behind them. This can and does of.course happen on Guard routes of course. But I'd wager it happens more commonly on DOO routes.

Ah right......but like you said, that can happen anyway with Guards on board. To what extent that can be measured is difficult.....but having said that, having staff on board whose sole job is revenue would be a big help. How many DOO services do have someone on board anyway who just does that ?

 

[Captain Chaos]

Ah right......but like you said, that can happen anyway with Guards on board. To what extent that can be measured is difficult.....but having said that, having staff on board whose sole job is revenue would be a big help. How many DOO services do have someone on board anyway who just does that ?

At a conservative guess, not more than 20% at my TOC probably. Almost all of that is concentrated on the morning shifts.

As I said, it can happen with Guards of course. I could give some specific examples as to why I think it happens more on DOO, I have worked both sides of the fence. But I don't think it would be proper of me to do so, so I shall leave it there I'm afraid. Sorry!

 

[Moonshot]

At a conservative guess, not more than 20% at my TOC probably. Almost all of that is concentrated on the morning shifts.

As I said, it can happen with Guards of course. I could give some specific examples as to why I think it happens more on DOO, I have worked both sides of the fence. But I don't think it would be proper of me to do so, so I shall leave it there I'm afraid. Sorry!

Ok ....but irrespective of DOO, there will always be an element of underpay or none pay for tickets anyway. Here in Manchester, barriers dont exist at all except for Oxford Road. Other stations like Picc, Vic, Salford Central, Bolton and Stockport have staff checking tickets on exit. Our tram network is totally open, though there is a flying squad of inspectors who swarm a tram at any given moment.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Ok ....but irrespective of DOO, there will always be an element of underpay or none pay for tickets anyway. Here in Manchester, barriers dont exist at all except for Oxford Road. Other stations like Picc, Vic, Salford Central, Bolton and Stockport have staff checking tickets on exit. Our tram network is totally open, though there is a flying squad of inspectors who swarm a tram at any given moment.

It's a strategy that works, yes. But only to some extent. The ethos being to keep the good people honest. But swarming one random train or tram out of hundreds that run is a little pointless really. What about all the other services? You end up with a system whereby you could go for years without being checked. A large number of people on my local line would often not bother because they would never see anyone. It was a shock when they did! Ticket barriers have helped, but it's just pushed the problem elsewhere (the ones who don't want to pay get off earlier, or claim the last stop). Just keeping the good people honest, yet again. Have someone actually checking tickets on board though, and the picture changes dramatically. This is what needs to happen regularly though, not randomly. Otherwise you end up with my local line.

 

[Moonshot]

It's a strategy that works, yes. But only to some extent. The ethos being to keep the good people honest. But swarming one random train or tram out of hundreds that run is a little pointless really. What about all the other services? You end up with a system whereby you could go for years without being checked. A large number of people on my local line would often not bother because they would never see anyone. It was a shock when they did! Ticket barriers have helped, but it's just pushed the problem elsewhere (the ones who don't want to pay get off earlier, or claim the last stop). Just keeping the good people honest, yet again. Have someone actually checking tickets on board though, and the picture changes dramatically. This is what needs to happen regularly though, not randomly. Otherwise you end up with my local line.

It works on the tram network because they are in the main 2 cars long, and the services are very frequent. As far as Northern goes, a packed service ( in common with other TOCs ) is very difficult for a guard to check ( and indeed sell ). But of course the very services that are packed in the peaks also carry the highest amount of season ticket holders. The other day , I actually managed to go through a very busy 4 car unit at tea time......almost all punters had a season ticket.

 

[455driver]

But there is no onus on them to do so. So they don't have to. Why do more than what you are contractually obliged to do?

Why do more than you are trained and insured to do?
Overstep your training and if anything goes wrong the company will throw you to the wolves faster than the fare dodgers can run to the toilet when they see the guard!

 

[notadriver]

To help the customer?



Anyway, I agree that we need an on board staff presence - not necessarily on every train - but certainly on most trains. I hold a view though that in this day and age, said staff member need not be required to operate the doors.

Safe Dispatch of trains is not just 'operating the doors' .... Please

 

[455driver]

Passenger comes from Hungerford. Arrives at Reading and asks for a single from Theale. How would you prove otherwise? You have 30 people queuing behind them. This can and does of.course happen on Guard routes of course. But I'd wager it happens more commonly on DOO routes.

Dont forget all the ones from Hungerford (and other stations) who only buy a Theale to Reading season ticket so they can operate the barriers at Reading!

 

[Moonshot]

Dont forget all the ones from Hungerford (and other stations) who only buy a Theale to Reading season ticket so they can operate the barriers at Reading!

Just how big an issue is that?.......I m not familiar with the area at all

 

[Captain Chaos]

Just how big an issue is that?.......I m not familiar with the area at all

Without giving specific examples, it was one of the first things I came across when working on DOO trains. People buying tickets just to get through barriers is one of the most common practices. On the guarded trains side of things, I have only come across it maybe once. Twice a year, if I'm lucky. That's over a 10 year period.

I don't have any figures. Just my experience. I'm not saying it's high. But I'm no fool. It's blindingly obvious it's easier to get away with on DOO. The easier something is to get away with, the more likely it is that people will do it.

 

[ToastLaser]

Without giving specific examples, it was one of the first things I came across when working on DOO trains. People buying tickets just to get through barriers is one of the most common practices. On the guarded trains side of things, I have only come across it maybe once. Twice a year, if I'm lucky. That's over a 10 year period.

I don't have any figures. Just my experience. I'm not saying it's high. But I'm no fool. It's blindingly obvious it's easier to get away with on DOO. The easier something is to get away with, the more likely it is that people will do it.

In the north where I worked only a few of the major stations were barriered, so most wouldn't pay at all if the guard hadn't challenged them on board. Advance tickets actually reduced this quite a bit for longer journeys, but also opened up another revenue stream as it was common for people to buy the cheapest ticket they could online then just travel on whatever service they liked rather than the one specified on the ticket...

 

[Moonshot]

Without giving specific examples, it was one of the first things I came across when working on DOO trains. People buying tickets just to get through barriers is one of the most common practices. On the guarded trains side of things, I have only come across it maybe once. Twice a year, if I'm lucky. That's over a 10 year period.

I don't have any figures. Just my experience. I'm not saying it's high. But I'm no fool. It's blindingly obvious it's easier to get away with on DOO. The easier something is to get away with, the more likely it is that people will do it.

Ok , but as I said earlier , there will always be an element of underpay/none pay anyway, the trick is to mitigate that in the most efficient way. Logically it is difficult to quantify, but anyone who is doing this on a regular basis (particularly with season tickets ) will eventually get found out.

 

[yorkie]

....It's blindingly obvious it's easier to get away with on DOO. ...

It's got nothing to do with Driver Only Operation.

I'd suggest a new thread for this argument (and I'll agree with you - if worded correctly!) which is actually about having a visible member of staff whose job includes patrolling the train selling & checking tickets.

In fact, some DOO services (e.g. those in Strathclyde) do have such a role. While some services with a Guard (e.g. SWT inner suburbans) do not!

The role of the Guard does not necessarily include inspecting tickets, and even where it does, it's well down the list of priorities (safety, then timekeeping, and so on...)

However, I've said the above several pages ago, so we're just going round and round in circles!

Feel free to start a thread along the lines of "Should there be someone to inspect tickets on all trains?" as it's a completely different subject.

 

[HSTEd]

As Yorkie says - DOO does not necessarily mean only one person on the train.

I have my own thoughts on the revenue issue, but they are not that relevant to this particular discussion.

 

[Captain Chaos]

As Yorkie says - DOO does not necessarily mean only one person on the train.

I have my own thoughts on the revenue issue, but they are not that relevant to this particular discussion.

Indeed it doesn't. But in the South East, and in my area it sadly often does mean there is only ever the driver on the train. We should, IMO, have a Scotland style arrangement. It's sad that we don't. You don't have to be collecting revenue to be of value to the passenger.

I think the issue, particularly in the SE really boils down to this issue. The fact that we have no arrangement in place to always ensure there is someone on a train in passenger service, DOO or not, and our experience being that DOO in the SE is vastly different to Scotland. A lot of us see that operation of the doors is effectively keeping us on board. Take it away and getting rid of us is so much easier. We should adopt the Scottish approach to DOO. Bring it in if you really, really want to. But keep staff on the trains! SE DOO is terrible. For the staff and the passengers alike.

 

[92002]

It's got nothing to do with Driver Only Operation.

I'd suggest a new thread for this argument (and I'll agree with you - if worded correctly!) which is actually about having a visible member of staff whose job includes patrolling the train selling & checking tickets.

In fact, some DOO services (e.g. those in Strathclyde) do have such a role. While some services with a Guard (e.g. SWT inner suburbans) do not!

The role of the Guard does not necessarily include inspecting tickets, and even where it does, it's well down the list of priorities (safety, then timekeeping, and so on...)

However, I've said the above several pages ago, so we're just going round and round in circles!

Feel free to start a thread along the lines of "Should there be someone to inspect tickets on all trains?" as it's a completely different subject.

Many Strahclyde Manning Agreement DOO trains have more than
One TE on a train. Particularly on peak trains where most evasion
would occur.

When the DOO trains started 30 years ago, the guards became
TEs and kept their rate of pay. Many have now left and been
replaced by TEs.

Much use is still made of barriers at many stations.

A good number of services are due to go over to DOO in
the next few years. Presumably using similar changeover
of crews.

 

[O L Leigh]

As Yorkie says - DOO does not necessarily mean only one person on the train.

Indeed. However, what it does mean is only one person available to carry out safety critical work including train despatch and protection of the line.

And so the discussion goes round again. Anyone else getting dizzy yet?

O L Leigh

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed. However, what it does mean is only one person available to carry out safety critical work including train despatch and protection of the line.

And so the discussion goes round again. Anyone else getting dizzy yet?

O L Leigh

Yes I see what you mean , but both sides can be accused of constant smoke and mirrors in this whole saga , RMT claim to be totally reasonable by merely requesting guards retain full control of the doors whilst knowing in reality that actually means very little change can ever be made to that role if that proposal is accepted whilst management on the other hand may promise to retain on train staff if a line goes DOO but could easily be planning to make them redundant a year or so later

 

[Moonshot]

Indeed. However, what it does mean is only one person available to carry out safety critical work including train despatch and protection of the line.

And so the discussion goes round again. Anyone else getting dizzy yet?

O L Leigh

Have the RAIB ever recommended the re intoduction of a safety critical staff member after an incident involving a DOO train? I cant see anything in there database, but someone may know better.

 

[O L Leigh]

It is not within the RAIB's remit to make recommendations, but to investigate and highlight the causal factors in an incident.

O L Leigh

 

[Moonshot]

It is not within the RAIB's remit to make recommendations, but to investigate and highlight the causal factors in an incident.

O L Leigh

Im sorry ???? Below is a quote from an investigation I just randomly chose


As a consequence of this incident, RAIB has made four recommendations, directed variously to West Coast Railway Company, the Heritage Railway Association, and the Main Line Steam Locomotive Operators Association. They cover the maintenance arrangements for steam locomotives used on the national network, a review of the design of the small end assembly on the type of locomotive involved in the accident, guidance on the design and manufacture of cotters, and assessment of risk arising from changes to the details of the design of locomotives.

 

[O L Leigh]

Perhaps I should clarify that these are drawn from the causal factors in the incident. That is their remit. What they cannot do is question the underlying methods of working, determine railway policy or, as you suggested earlier, recommend a return of guards onto DOO services. They generally highlight where existing procedures and practices have slipped and highlight these for the relevant bodies to address.

However, they have identified aspects of DOO operation, such as despatch using DOO monitors, as being causal factors in incidents. For example, the consequences of the incorrect positioning of the train relative to the monitors at Huntingdon and the imperfect view that they accorded to the driver were identified as causal in the incident where a passenger was dragged under a train after their coat was caught in the train doors.

O L Leigh

 

[HSTEd]

It seems unlikely that future implementations of DOO would use things like platform-side monitors, they having been replaced as the technology of choice by video links to equipment in the driving cab.