Should we have DOO?

[telstarbox]

I'm playing devil's advocate here but if a bus driver can supervise and safely close three sets of doors on a bendy bus, why can't a train driver do the same for four sets of doors on a two-car DMU?

 

[Tomnick]

Have a look through the last DOO thread (somewhere on this forum very recently) and also the link that I provided further up this thread - it's about far, far more than just operating doors.

 

[MrsSundayMorn]

On a bendy bus..Other traffic would go around you or diverted if they saw you had a accident..in the case of a emergency such as derailment the driver would stay with the train and the conductor would go and lay track circuit clips and detonators in order to stop other trains causing a collision or vice versus . (Just one of the examples)

 

[physics34]

whats the point. it should never have got introduced in the first place. Has proved to be a pretty safe practice all around the world.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Much as I admire your efforts I am afraid you are flogging a long since boiled for glue horse with regard to DOO. It was lost way back in the 80s once the H & C went OPO. Subsequent attempts to then oppose OPO on deep tube lines and various other lines also floundered. The question of what happens to passengers at the rear of deep level tube train if a fire breaks out in the middle of it (as in the Southgate fire) has never been adequately addressed and is one of those 'odds against it happening' versus 'cost of additional staff' arguments that allow the risk assesments for DOO to be passed.
DOO accounts for 100% of the tube network and around 30% of the London commuter network - all you can argue for is that the trains and equipment to be used are of the highest possible standard to do the job.

 

[LateThanNever]

Much as I admire your efforts I am afraid you are flogging a long since boiled for glue horse with regard to DOO. It was lost way back in the 80s once the H & C went OPO. Subsequent attempts to then oppose OPO on deep tube lines and various other lines also floundered. The question of what happens to passengers at the rear of deep level tube train if a fire breaks out in the middle of it (as in the Southgate fire) has never been adequately addressed and is one of those 'odds against it happening' versus 'cost of additional staff' arguments that allow the risk assesments for DOO to be passed.
DOO accounts for 100% of the tube network and around 30% of the London commuter network - all you can argue for is that the trains and equipment to be used are of the highest possible standard to do the job.

Regret this takes no account of being stranded, shall we suggest - and these scenarios are frequent in the Pennines - overloaded, a long way from roads, in the fog!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Regret this takes no account of being stranded, shall we suggest - and these scenarios are frequent in the Pennines - overloaded, a long way from roads, in the fog!

You mean as opposed to 1000 people stuck in a deep single track tube tunnel ?
There are already plenty of DOO trains operating in remote areas. This is another failing rearguard action (like the anti deep level tube OPO campaign was in the late 80s).
All you can do is raise awareness that people will soon be travelling on single crewed trains.
The risk assesments have been done and the parties involved in operating and running the service are prepared to take those risks.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

imo, DOO is very much like Concorde, with the minor exception that, as far as DOO is concerned, 25 July 2000 hasn't happened yet.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

imo, DOO is very much like Concorde, with the minor exception that, as far as DOO is concerned, 25 July 2000 hasn't happened yet.

I'm sure the insurance against potential payouts of deaths per number of passenger journeys has been calculated and added on to the ticket prices.

 

[muz379]

I'm playing devil's advocate here but if a bus driver can supervise and safely close three sets of doors on a bendy bus, why can't a train driver do the same for four sets of doors on a two-car DMU?

A bendy bus is about 18M long , each car of a short DMU the 142 is 15M on its own , Make it a 158 and you are looking at cars that are each 23M long . So distance the driver has to observe is much greater on a bendy bus compared to a train

Also I dont know if this is true of all buses but the buses I travel on most of the time have buttons next to the door to open them in an emergency so any passenger trapped in these could easily push the open button to release themselves . Trains aren't equipped with these so a passenger being dragged along the platform has little chance of releasing themselves .

Also the driver is likely to be checking his mirrors quite often so would see someone trapped in the door whereas once the train is rolling forward the drivers focus is going to be the line ahead .

Besides DOO is not only about taking safety responsibility for dispatch away from the driver . The guard has other safety responsibilities as well

 

[notadriver]

The javelins are DOO but always have a second person - an On Board Manager. Maybe this is the way things will go ?

 

[muz379]

The javelins are DOO but always have a second person - an On Board Manager. Maybe this is the way things will go ?

out of interest , Is that second person trained in PTS and trained in actions in the event of an emergency ?

 

[trentside]

The javelins are DOO but always have a second person - an On Board Manager. Maybe this is the way things will go ?

Wasn't this also the original intention for the Voyagers? Hence the fact that the doors are operated by the driver, with the guard only signalling when to close them and giving the ready to start. Someone has mentioned this to me in the past, but can anyone confirm if it's true?

 

[LateThanNever]

You mean as opposed to 1000 people stuck in a deep single track tube tunnel ?
There are already plenty of DOO trains operating in remote areas. This is another failing rearguard action (like the anti deep level tube OPO campaign was in the late 80s).
All you can do is raise awareness that people will soon be travelling on single crewed trains.
The risk assesments have been done and the parties involved in operating and running the service are prepared to take those risks.

Except on the tube - no freight, no passing trains and no lack of communication. And the 1000 people could well be the same except rather further from the next station/civilisation!

 

[yorkie]

....and no lack of communication....

A secure train-to-signaller radio system is a requirement of DOO. If there is a "lack of communication", DOO is (rightly) prohibited.

 

[plastictaffy]

I'm playing devil's advocate here but if a bus driver can supervise and safely close three sets of doors on a bendy bus, why can't a train driver do the same for four sets of doors on a two-car DMU?

What you trying to do, get all Guards/Train Managers/Senior Conductors to talk themselves out of a job?? It might work fine with a two car DMU, yes.
However, within the TOC I work for, we regularly run 12 car rains. Do you expect the driver to have to deal with perhaps 1200 ****ed-up idiots on the train while he's making his way through it trying to reset the passcom that someone pulled because they'd run out of bog roll on the Vomit Comet??
Or a fire breaks out and he needs to evacuate the train?? One of our guards had to evacuate a 12 car train only a couple of years ago when someone set themselves on fire in the toilet. I can't imagine a driver doing that on his own.
Or a driver has a fatality and is sat in the cab a gibbering wreck, unable to make the relevant phonecalls, protect the train, and keep the punters informed of what is happening.

No No, No, No.
DOO must not happen - certainly not on heavily used commuter lines such as the one I work on. I believe that if my TOC did try to introduce DOO, they'd find themselves with a mass walkout of ASLEF members. It was tried once before on a twenty mile stretch of the line. Drivers refused to move the train without the Guard. It lasted a whole morning.

 

[Carlisle]

Wasn't this also the original intention for the Voyagers? Hence the fact that the doors are operated by the driver, with the guard only signalling when to close them and giving the ready to start. Someone has mentioned this to me in the past, but can anyone confirm if it's true?

As far as I know it was never in reality planned to remove door duties / guards on voyagers when they entered service (DOO would also have been forbidden as none of their routes had GSMR/CSR at the time either) but the way the system's designed it did give that option for them to perhaps run that way if transferred to an existing DOO route sometime in their future bit like 170s were when used on London to Ipswich line

 

[ac6000cw]

However, within the TOC I work for, we regularly run 12 car rains.

DOO must not happen - certainly not on heavily used commuter lines such as the one I work on.

Just pointing out that DOO happened 25 years ago in some parts of the country, 12 car commuter trains and all......come down and have a look at it working.

....run out of bog roll on the Vomit Comet??

If there are particular trains that need extra 'security' then target those specifically with on-board staff - probably a much more effective use of resources overall.

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you expect the driver to have to deal with perhaps 1200 ****ed-up idiots on the train while he's making his way through it trying to reset the passcom that someone pulled...

If the driver isn't expected to deal with such a situation, then why should a guard?

(Both the drivers of 12 coach trains I've seen walking through a train of 1200 generally affable commuters to reset pass comms seemed happy enough)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

What you trying to do, get all Guards/Train Managers/Senior Conductors to talk themselves out of a job?? It might work fine with a two car DMU, yes.
However, within the TOC I work for, we regularly run 12 car rains. Do you expect the driver to have to deal with perhaps 1200 ****ed-up idiots on the train while he's making his way through it trying to reset the passcom that someone pulled because they'd run out of bog roll on the Vomit Comet??
Or a fire breaks out and he needs to evacuate the train?? One of our guards had to evacuate a 12 car train only a couple of years ago when someone set themselves on fire in the toilet. I can't imagine a driver doing that on his own.
Or a driver has a fatality and is sat in the cab a gibbering wreck, unable to make the relevant phonecalls, protect the train, and keep the punters informed of what is happening.

No No, No, No.
DOO must not happen - certainly not on heavily used commuter lines such as the one I work on. I believe that if my TOC did try to introduce DOO, they'd find themselves with a mass walkout of ASLEF members. It was tried once before on a twenty mile stretch of the line. Drivers refused to move the train without the Guard. It lasted a whole morning.

The Thameslink route operates 24 hours a day for six out of 7 days (and pretty late on the 7th) is a very busy (one of the busiest) commuter routes, has 12 car trains and many stations only staffed during the day - it runs DOO trains. Much as I agree with more staff presence on trains the basic intrinsic argument over DOO has been lost to the benefit of so called cost savings some time ago.
The current argument however would be more along the lines of what is so special about your 12 car trains that they need a guard whereas the Thameslink 12 car trains don't ?

 

[LowLevel]

It also has appalling satisfaction figures, especially for staff availability, and an interesting safety record. Just what we want nationwide.

What exactly recommends this method of working over say the Swiss or Japanese ones?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It also has appalling satisfaction figures, especially for staff availability, and an interesting safety record. Just what we want nationwide.

What exactly recommends this method of working over say the Swiss or Japanese ones?

A lower wage bill

 

[jopsuk]

What you trying to do, get all Guards/Train Managers/Senior Conductors to talk themselves out of a job?? It might work fine with a two car DMU, yes.
However, within the TOC I work for, we regularly run 12 car rains. Do you expect the driver to have to deal with perhaps 1200 ****ed-up idiots on the train while he's making his way through it trying to reset the passcom that someone pulled because they'd run out of bog roll on the Vomit Comet??
Or a fire breaks out and he needs to evacuate the train?? One of our guards had to evacuate a 12 car train only a couple of years ago when someone set themselves on fire in the toilet. I can't imagine a driver doing that on his own.
Or a driver has a fatality and is sat in the cab a gibbering wreck, unable to make the relevant phonecalls, protect the train, and keep the punters informed of what is happening.

No No, No, No.
DOO must not happen - certainly not on heavily used commuter lines such as the one I work on. I believe that if my TOC did try to introduce DOO, they'd find themselves with a mass walkout of ASLEF members. It was tried once before on a twenty mile stretch of the line. Drivers refused to move the train without the Guard. It lasted a whole morning.

Whilst I agree with you that DOO shouldn't be implemented. 12-car DOO operates on the Great Eastern, West Anglia, Great Northern and Thameslink routes. Think it might be 12 car DOO on the LTS as well?


Which sort of is the problem for those opposing further roll out. Your reasons are valid. But the proponents can point to it already being extensively used.

There's also the issue of "so, do you want two guards if it's three units with no inter-unit connector?". Because on the Great Eastern and Great Northern, 12-car trains are running with 321s, 360s and 365s where a guard would only be able to effectively deal with issues in the unit they are in- anything else requires a trackside excursion

I don't want to a single person made redundant or have their job downgraded with a pay cut. I applaud your employer (who, I think I'm right in saying, are SWT? Pretty sure they're the only operator wih 12 car trains and no DOO at all? Unless LM are all-guard?) for still being Guard operated, and the unions for helping keep it that way. But the situation is far muddier than you would like it to be.

 

[muz379]

A lower wage bill

Ahh the old race to the bottom

What are all of the skilled reasonably well payed railway employees going to do with themselves now that their jobs have been replaced by a GSMR terminal and cctv/mirrors ?

 

[Pumbaa]

Pretty sure they're the only operator wih 12 car trains and no DOO at all? Unless LM are all-guard?)

They are - but you'd never know as they never leave the back cab

 

[LateThanNever]

A lower wage bill

And a higher cleaning bill! A lack of secure feeling and lack of ownership among the passengers. I fear the direct costs are less indicative than the indirect ones many of which may be picked up in the courts.

 

[LowLevel]

A lower wage bill

Which is hardly going to be a huge amount given that ticket examiners at the TOC where I am a guard are only on about £5k less than a guard and the drivers, who earn less than other non-DOO drivers elsewhere, would surely want an extra wedge (not that they want it at all and as they point out they are already in 'supertax' so it would have to be something special to buy it). Not to mention the expense of stations, trains and signalling to make them DOO ready.

I suspect with the attacks on infrastructure maintenance staff, signallers, guards etc all plodding along we could be in for our first national rail strike in a while.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suspect with the attacks on infrastructure maintenance staff, signallers, guards etc all plodding along we could be in for our first national rail strike in a while.

What attacks on maintenance staff and signallers would those be?

 

[LateThanNever]

They are - but you'd never know as they never leave the back cab

Well they ought to! Why don't they?

 

[notadriver]

A lower wage bill

How has a 'lower wage bill' improved anything for passengers ?