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Should we have another referendum?

MULTIPLE CHOICE: Should we have another referendum on these subjects?


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Shaw S Hunter

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I do feel sorry for the Scots. The chances of them remaining in the EU on current terms seem to be tiny but to join as a new applicant would require them to adopt the Euro, totally useless given Scotland's major trade links will always be with England. It would appear that there may be a chance that Holyrood can delay the Brexit but Westminster can legislate its way round this if necessary. The EU referendum has served very well to open up so many different divisions around the UK and this is worrying. I hope those who find themselves in power in the next few weeks understand the sensitivities of all concerned and don't act rashly in the name of short term popularity.
 
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me123

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I do feel sorry for the Scots. The chances of them remaining in the EU on current terms seem to be tiny but to join as a new applicant would require them to adopt the Euro, totally useless given Scotland's major trade links will always be with England.

"Will always be" is a very broad statement, and one that you cannot know to be true.

The UK seems to have managed pretty well with every other country it trades with using a different currency. Indeed, quite a large chunk of the UK's trade has been (and will continue to be) with the €urozone, most notably Ireland where there is an open land border. I fail to see how a theoretical independent Scotland adopting the €uro as its currency (which I think is highly likely) would be significantly to our detriment.

It's worth pointing out the Scotland does also trade widely with the €urozone, and would any harm in our trade with rUK would be made up for in trade within the common market.

The €uro quite simply would not be a useless currency for an independent Scotland.
 

Antman

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There's now a petition to get Gareth Southgate's penalty in Euro 96 retaken:D:D
 

Peter Mugridge

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The BBC have just quoted Boris as saying "the UK will continue to intensify co-operation with the EU."

Ummm.... *scratches head*
 

WelshBluebird

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My immediate reaction, even as a remain voter, is we should't have another one. Just smacks me as wrong and very much like having a strop because you didn't get your own way.

However, on thinking more about it, I can't actually decide.

For one, more than a few people I know who backed leave said before the vote that if the remain won by less than 5% (this was back when people still assumed remain would win) then there should be a 2nd referendum. And the petition going around was actually created by a leave supporter for that reason.

And secondly, the result was basically based on a whole lot of lies and misinformation. I don't think I can call that democracy if I am honest. We have seen leave MP's distancing themselves from claims made during the campaign and talk of the UK staying in the single market (so also keeping freedom of movement) which wasn't really mentioned much beforehand. Certainly I think at least some people would revisit their choice based on what has come out since Thursday.

And finally, the government are introducing certain criteria that Trade Union's must meet when it comes to members voting for strike action (I can't remember the figures but I think it was something like 40% of all eligible voters must vote for strike action for it to be valid). If the government think that strike action is so much of a big issue that it needs that kind of protection against it happening, why on earth does something like us leaving the EU (which is a hell of a lot bigger than any one trade union striking) not have the same conditions required?

If I am honest I probably still think we shouldn't have a second referendum, but I do think the above points really should make people at least think about what is wrong with politics.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you voted remain and are unhappy zip down this checklist and be comforted.

1 Call every white person who voted "Leave" a racist conveniently ignoring the fact that Europeans are also white. Make sure also that you marginalise and ignore ethnic minority "Leave" voters.

2 Claim that that the enormous turnout wasn't high enough. 72%? It should have been at least 75%. 80%? It should have been at least 85%. Make sure to keep moving the figures to suit your complaining.

3 Make a stupid e-petition demanding another referendum, just like the socialists did when Labour lost the last General Election. Referendums are needed until the correct result is reached.

4 Get over-exited about the economy , even if nothing has really happened. Pretend that that third class degree in Russian-Social economics that you got from the L.S.E. makes you an expert on the world markets.

5 Attack the very idea of democracy because it's only a good thing when it goes the way that you want it to. Working class voters don't know what's good for them but middle class liberals from Islington and Hampstead do. (Expect an outpouring of grief from champagne socialist pin-up girl Emma Thompson any day now).

6 Share memes attacking brexit voters whilst ignoring the unwelcome and uncomfortable realisation that you are in the minority of public opinion (see 5 above).

7 Boldly claim that Scotland will leave the U.K. forgetting - like most Scottish Nationals do - that they can't afford to, the EU probably don't want them and the majority of Scotland voted to leave.

8 Make fun of Boris Johnson whilst secretly hoping that he won't become Prime Minister (for what it's worth I don' think that he will).

9 Like the Labour party (currently starting to implode) learn nothing from the campaign blaming the result on everything and everybody except yourself. Scaremongering and bullying are brilliant tactics, what could possibly go wrong?

10 Curl up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep whilst humming "Ode to Joy".

Some of the points are valid, some of the points are just silly.

However two I do have a real issue with.

In the case of working class voters in Wales, they very much did vote against their own best interests. Basically, in parts of South Wales, poor people from poor areas have just voted to make their area and themselves poorer.

And as for the whole racism thing, I really think you are naive if you think that wasn't one of the things that swung the vote. There were a lot of people who did vote leave because they are racist / xenophobic. Please don't confuse that with saying anyone who voted leave is, because I am not saying that. Basically not all leave voters are racists but out of all the racists in the UK, those who voted probably voted leave.
 
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Howardh

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I think (which would be a first) that in the coming weeks the EU and UK will bang their heads together and come out with some sort of deal - maybe stay and pay to be in the EU but have some kind of immigration control for EU migrants, maybe we can get an exception meaning immigrants can freely come and look for work if they have a "permit" and there are only so many available per annum. Wouldn't affect tourists etc.
Could be wrong - isn't that like USA's "Green Card" system?? Anyhow, if it works, other countries with immigration *problems* could also adapt it.
Maybe we could get a further rebate - to be sent from the EU to the NHS - based on how many permits are issued.
So, more EU immigrants = more cash for the NHS.
And put that to the vote?
 

muz379

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I voted remain, and I am of course disappointed at the result.

The result happened. It's done. You're out of the EU. Well done. In the last 100 hours, the political and economic scenery has dramatically changed for the worse, but you're out. There's no going back. Europe want rid of us - that much is quite clear from the deliberately polite but nevertheless firm rhetoric from the EU. A repeat referendum would be democratically unacceptable domestically unless there was substantial change in the next two years or so, and it would serve only to weaken the UK's position at the negotiating table. The petition to overturn the result is frankly moronic, and has no democratic basis.

As for Scotland, it'll be no surprise to some that I think a second independence referendum is on the cards, and is democratically justified. I am, of course, a proud supporter of (although not a member of) the SNP, and actively supported independence in the first referendum. Indeed, my view on the matter has not changed.

For those who disagree, I'd like to take you back to the Scottish Independence debate in 2014. One of the big issues for the "No" block back then was the EU (here's an old BBC article about the issues). It was said that a vote for independence risked our place in Europe, and that to preserve it we should vote to remain in the UK. Now, Scotland have voted to remain in the EU by a comfortable margin, whilst England and Wales voted to leave. As a result, our constitutional framework in Scotland has been changed contrary to the will of its people.

I think the EU referendum was conducted in an entirely appropriate manner, and that the way of interpreting the result (50% +1 vote, regardless of where the vote comes from) was correct. But for Scotland (and indeed Northern Ireland) it does raise the question of independence again. Our people wanted to take a different approach, and I think it is justified that the people, knowing what the options are further down the line, have the right to decide whether we keep our ties with rUK, or whether we keep our ties with Europe. Although this is a very different debate to the one we had previously - it's going to be about whether Scotland has ties with London or ties with Brussels. An independent Scotland that is offered to the voters in a potential IndyRef 2 must be a member of the EU for this to be a reasonable debate.

It is quite sensible in my opinion - the vision of Scotland sold to no voters as a member of the UK has changed. There is already a poll demonstrating huge support for an independent Scotland. I think it is therefore reasonable to ask the question to Scots again, as there has now been a huge change in circumstances. Of course, this isn't a simple affair, and we need to know:
- Whether Scotland can remain a member of the EU whilst rUK leaves (I suspect that this is unlikely, but there is a precedent with Denmark/Greenland/Faroe Islands).
- Exactly what the divorce between UK and EU will entail.
- Exactly what is required for an independent Scotland to ascend to the EU (whether we have automatic rights to join as a fragment of the UK, or need to go through the full Article 49 process requiring approval from every member state)
- What we would need to do to join the EU - I suspect that joining the Euro at the very least would be non-negotiable, and indeed preferable in the new circumstances.

This will all become clearer as the Scottish Government continue in their discussions with European ministers.

Sadly, in this debate, people in Scotland have seen England & Wales in a very nasty light. The role that blatant xenophobia and racism has played in this campaign has not gone unnoticed by us, and I think that will serve only to strengthen support for independence further. Scotland is continuing to drift politically further apart from the rest of the UK. And, as far as I'm concerned, long may it continue. The tone of this campaign has made me throughly ashamed to be British.
I respect completely the arguments for a referendum .I support Scotland right to a second referendum because the UK it voted to remain a member of in 2014(wow only feels like yesterday) is going to change .It seems obvious like the first minister has said that the option of a referendum should be on the table

But do you really think with the prospect of having to adopt the Euro , and the prospect of having to join schengen the SNP can actually win a second referendum . Because if not you know as well as everyone else what that spells for Nichola Sturgeons career . Its all good and well having a poll now a few days after a divisive result in a national referendum when tensions are high . But can that anger sustain itself long enough for a second referendum to be carried out and the result the SNP want to be produced ?

As a remain voter given the choice between EEA membership with the retention of free movement and access to the single market I would rather that then trying to get the UK back into the EU but having to adopt the Euro and join schengen . But then if this issue was being played out in Scotland alone and people got presented with those same choices would that national identity complex inform the debate a bit more .

And have the economic arguments changed any since the last referendum because I seem to remember them being somewhat divisive with the alleged gap in public finances . Could the EU assist in making up any gap in an Independent Scotland's public finances , or would the eu budget requirement increase any gap .
 

DelayRepay

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I respect completely the arguments for a referendum .I support Scotland right to a second referendum because the UK it voted to remain a member of in 2014(wow only feels like yesterday) is going to change .It seems obvious like the first minister has said that the option of a referendum should be on the table

I don't think she wants a referendum on Scottish independence and I think she will do everything she can to avoid it. But she is right that as the First Minister she has a duty and an obligation to protect the interests of Scotland. And if Independence is considered the best way of doing this, the people should have the chance to vote. Unlike last week's referendum, I hope any future Scottish referendum takes place after negotiations, so people are presented with two clear choices.

The people of Scotland are lucky to have the SNP at this time. When Westminster should be focusing on working out what the hell to do next, we have the tories in disarray and the main opposition in disarray. Currently it seems the only functioning political parties at Westminster are the Lib Dems, the Green Party and UKIP - a total of 10 MPs between them.
 

St Rollox

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Another Scottish Referendum?
Been laughing all weekend.
Considering that Scottish Labour has collapsed, i'm trying to figure out who will do the street work for unionism.
 

VauxhallandI

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If you voted remain and are unhappy zip down this checklist and be comforted.

1 Call every white person who voted "Leave" a racist conveniently ignoring the fact that Europeans are also white. Make sure also that you marginalise and ignore ethnic minority "Leave" voters.

2 Claim that that the enormous turnout wasn't high enough. 72%? It should have been at least 75%. 80%? It should have been at least 85%. Make sure to keep moving the figures to suit your complaining.

3 Make a stupid e-petition demanding another referendum, just like the socialists did when Labour lost the last General Election. Referendums are needed until the correct result is reached.

4 Get over-exited about the economy , even if nothing has really happened. Pretend that that third class degree in Russian-Social economics that you got from the L.S.E. makes you an expert on the world markets.

5 Attack the very idea of democracy because it's only a good thing when it goes the way that you want it to. Working class voters don't know what's good for them but middle class liberals from Islington and Hampstead do. (Expect an outpouring of grief from champagne socialist pin-up girl Emma Thompson any day now).

6 Share memes attacking brexit voters whilst ignoring the unwelcome and uncomfortable realisation that you are in the minority of public opinion (see 5 above).

7 Boldly claim that Scotland will leave the U.K. forgetting - like most Scottish Nationals do - that they can't afford to, the EU probably don't want them and the majority of Scotland voted to leave.

8 Make fun of Boris Johnson whilst secretly hoping that he won't become Prime Minister (for what it's worth I don' think that he will).

9 Like the Labour party (currently starting to implode) learn nothing from the campaign blaming the result on everything and everybody except yourself. Scaremongering and bullying are brilliant tactics, what could possibly go wrong?

10 Curl up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep whilst humming "Ode to Joy".

Oh dear http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
 

Antman

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Voting in UK should be compulsory. How many "remain"ers also regretted their vote. Holy Moly , what a shocking state of affairs. Let's keep on voting until we get the result some idiots want. It happened , Britain voted out . Deal with it.

My guess is that all that wanted to leave voted, all those that wanted to remain couldn't be bothered. Tough.

What are we going to have police officers dragging people to the polling station?

My 22 year old daughter didn't vote, she wasn't bothered either way and it seems many of her friends were the same.

And yes it is quite laughable that some people are demanding a rerun because they didn't get the result that they wanted.
 

Phil.

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I'm a bit unhappy with the result and yet I acknowledge that not all brexiters are racist. Only some of them are, so this point doesn't apply to me.



I'm not bothered by the turnout, I'm bothered by the result.



It's called democracy, and you have to question the validity of the result when we don't know how many brexiters regret their vote



Stuff has happened, just do some research (businesses withdrawing staff, the decline of sterling etc). Are you an expert on world markets? Most experts supported remaining.



This boils down to education, there have been quite a few uninformed votes and it's no coincidence that better-educated people tended to support remaining.



48% is still quite a lot, but what do I know?



The probably will end up getting another referendum, although I personally think that the case for Scottish independence doesn't add up. Either way, most Scots actually voted to remain so you are wrong. Also are you qualified to say the EU doesn't want them?



Do you want him as PM?



Not really. The remain campaign was pretty poor and failed to achieve its objective, while the leave campaign was based on scaremongering and lies. Quite ironic, really.

I'm not convinced.

Looks like items 2 and 5 apply to you. Get it into your head. There was a vote, it was a majority (on a higher turn-out than the last three general elections) for leave. End of.
 

miami

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Can't have another referendum. We're all adults, we've all done things we regret the next morning. There weren't enough people affected by the trains/weather/floods to have made a difference.

We need to move on, and democratically you might think a general election is a good idea (it's a new world needing new manifesto commitments), however if we had one now, with both labour and tories in disarray, I see a strong ukip vote and a very worrying future. Things need to calm down. Either that or the SNP needs to stand in England as well.

P.s the ones to blame for this mess are the 65% or young people who didn't bother voting.
 

Phil.

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My immediate reaction, even as a remain voter, is we should't have another one. Just smacks me as wrong and very much like having a strop because you didn't get your own way.

However, on thinking more about it, I can't actually decide.

For one, more than a few people I know who backed leave said before the vote that if the remain won by less than 5% (this was back when people still assumed remain would win) then there should be a 2nd referendum. And the petition going around was actually created by a leave supporter for that reason.

And secondly, the result was basically based on a whole lot of lies and misinformation. I don't think I can call that democracy if I am honest. We have seen leave MP's distancing themselves from claims made during the campaign and talk of the UK staying in the single market (so also keeping freedom of movement) which wasn't really mentioned much beforehand. Certainly I think at least some people would revisit their choice based on what has come out since Thursday.

And finally, the government are introducing certain criteria that Trade Union's must meet when it comes to members voting for strike action (I can't remember the figures but I think it was something like 40% of all eligible voters must vote for strike action for it to be valid). If the government think that strike action is so much of a big issue that it needs that kind of protection against it happening, why on earth does something like us leaving the EU (which is a hell of a lot bigger than any one trade union striking) not have the same conditions required?

If I am honest I probably still think we shouldn't have a second referendum, but I do think the above points really should make people at least think about what is wrong with politics.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Some of the points are valid, some of the points are just silly.

However two I do have a real issue with.

In the case of working class voters in Wales, they very much did vote against their own best interests. Basically, in parts of South Wales, poor people from poor areas have just voted to make their area and themselves poorer.

Item 5 applies

And as for the whole racism thing, I really think you are naive if you think that wasn't one of the things that swung the vote. There were a lot of people who did vote leave because they are racist / xenophobic. Please don't confuse that with saying anyone who voted leave is, because I am not saying that. Basically not all leave voters are racists but out of all the racists in the UK, those who voted probably voted leave.

Item 1 applies.
 

me123

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P.s the ones to blame for this mess are the 65% or young people who didn't bother voting.

No wonder young people didn't vote. The campaign largely consisted of privileged white men shouting "What Ifs" at each other. It was the most god awfully boring campaign of my lifetime.
 

miami

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No wonder young people didn't vote. The campaign largely consisted of privileged white men shouting "What Ifs" at each other. It was the most god awfully boring campaign of my lifetime.

And supposedly educated young people were incapable of looking up the consequences themselves? Or each other? They have to be spoon fed by old white men?

They have no cause to complain. Had they all bothered to turn up we'd be staying in.

This is the second time they shot themselves in the foot. The first time was punishing the lib dems for bringing in £10k personal allowance, free school meals, gay marriage, voting reform referendum, protected international aid, etc etc etc
 

me123

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If you're going to encourage people to vote, you have to actually engage them. This campaign did the exact opposite. Even I was bored, and I'm very politically engaged.
 

miami

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If you're going to encourage people to vote, you have to actually engage them. This campaign did the exact opposite. Even I was bored, and I'm very politically engaged.

The remain campaign didn't make much effort, but this isn't x-factor or a football match. If you're too thick to realise how important the vote was, and too thick to research the pros and cons yourself, then you can't complain afterwards.
 

Antman

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Can't have another referendum. We're all adults, we've all done things we regret the next morning. There weren't enough people affected by the trains/weather/floods to have made a difference.

We need to move on, and democratically you might think a general election is a good idea (it's a new world needing new manifesto commitments), however if we had one now, with both labour and tories in disarray, I see a strong ukip vote and a very worrying future. Things need to calm down. Either that or the SNP needs to stand in England as well.

P.s the ones to blame for this mess are the 65% or young people who didn't bother voting.

I don't see how you can 'blame' anybody, people are entitled not to vote if they wish and we will never know which way they would have voted anyway.
 

muz379

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I don't see how you can 'blame' anybody, people are entitled not to vote if they wish and we will never know which way they would have voted anyway.

I dont agree with much of what you say . But I agree with this

Take for example me and my sister , I went to university studied a subject that closely revolves around politics and got into a relationship with someone who did study politics so I understand politics and will always vote . But my sister chose a different path in life , took up vocational education and now works in healthcare . She does not understand politics a great deal and has no interest in doing so even though arguably she should as a public sector worker because she has a lot to loose or gain .

But the facts are some people are not interested and do not feel able to make a choice , its better surely that those people dont make a choice than make the wrong choice or just randomly pick sides ?

If anything blame politicians for the disgraceful way this and every other debate in this country is framed , for not engaging people . Blame our education system , before I went to sixth form college and associated with people who studied politics at that level and had the choice to study it myself I had no formal education in politics . I was politically engaged because one of my best friends parents where both strong trade unionists , one was a journalist and the other was a councillor (in addition to a main job) I spent a lot of time at his around those kinds of people so you absorb it . But that was sheer luck of the draw .

Dont blame people who did not feel informed enough to make a choice in this referendum .
 

miami

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Dont blame people who did not feel informed enough to make a choice in this referendum .

When I went to university, self education was all the rage. Rather than having people tell you what to think, it was your responsibility to learn yourself.

I guess that today's youth aren't like that then? Everything must be spoonfed.
 

Harbornite

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When I went to university, self education was all the rage. Rather than having people tell you what to think, it was your responsibility to learn yourself.

I guess that today's youth aren't like that then? Everything must be spoonfed.

Nothing like a bit of stereotyping is there! Did it ever occur to you that some youths actually did their own research before voting?
 

miami

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Nothing like a bit of stereotyping is there! Did it ever occur to you that some youths actually did their own research before voting?

Yes, it's clear that most that voted did their own research.

However most didn't bother voting, and the argument "nobody sold it to me well enough" is not an excuse
 

muz379

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When I went to university, self education was all the rage. Rather than having people tell you what to think, it was your responsibility to learn yourself.

I guess that today's youth aren't like that then? Everything must be spoonfed.

Wow not sure I should even dignify such rampant stereotyping with a response . Could say as much about the uneducated leave voters spoon-fed lies from Boris , Gove et al

Fact remains when it comes to a general election its quite easy to find out what you are voting for parties produce manifestos clearly stating what it is they intend to do if they win enough MP's to form a government .

In this referendum there was not that clearly defined choice about what would happen next .

I note you said yourself that you went to university . I too went to university and at university self education was still a rather important concept . You did the reading and research yourself or you never found out anything . However when it comes to those that have not attended university they might not have the time , knowledge and skills to self learn .They might not feel confident that they have read enough to still make the decision . This was a monumental decision .And I respect those that decided that they did not know enough to cast a vote
 

neilmc

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The "Leave" campaign pandered disgraceful racist lies so I'm half-tempted to say we should have another referendum because the first has been tarnished by this.

However, I also feel that people should be taught that with privilege comes responsibility, you don't vote on a malicious sound bite from Nigel Farage, you look at the facts intelligently and listen to those with knowledge, wisdom and experience and I'm afraid that whilst Remain prevailed where there is a preponderance of well-educated people, Leave did well where there is a preponderance of the less-educated - and these areas have a majority of grants from the European Social Fund. It's called "biting the hand that feeds you" and if your Japanese car plant moves to Germany and nobody will fund your pet development projects any more, well this is what you voted for yourself, mate.

Meanwhile all those nasty evil bankers, elitists, financial pundits and so on had the kicking you wanted to give them, but they have marketable skills and have simply moved elsewhere and you're still screwed. But there'll be jobs, picking carrots in East Anglia in the middle of winter for minimum wage since the Eastern Europeans all left. Enjoy.
 

ExRes

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The "Leave" campaign pandered disgraceful racist lies so I'm half-tempted to say we should have another referendum because the first has been tarnished by this.

However, I also feel that people should be taught that with privilege comes responsibility, you don't vote on a malicious sound bite from Nigel Farage, you look at the facts intelligently and listen to those with knowledge, wisdom and experience and I'm afraid that whilst Remain prevailed where there is a preponderance of well-educated people, Leave did well where there is a preponderance of the less-educated - and these areas have a majority of grants from the European Social Fund. It's called "biting the hand that feeds you" and if your Japanese car plant moves to Germany and nobody will fund your pet development projects any more, well this is what you voted for yourself, mate.

Meanwhile all those nasty evil bankers, elitists, financial pundits and so on had the kicking you wanted to give them, but they have marketable skills and have simply moved elsewhere and you're still screwed. But there'll be jobs, picking carrots in East Anglia in the middle of winter for minimum wage since the Eastern Europeans all left. Enjoy.

Where were the 'Remain' campaign then?, why didn't they convince the 'less educated' of the benefits the EU had to offer?

You don't convince people by running the totally negative, scaremongering, threatening campaign 'Remain' did

Cameron couldn't even get his friends at the EU to ratify his 'renegotiations' before the referendum was held, why do you think Cameron and his sorry campaign was held in such contempt by so many?
 

WelshBluebird

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Item 1 applies.

You can say whatever point applies, but the facts speak for themselves.
The areas which do benefit from EU money that voted to leave did vote to make their area poorer. I really don't see how you can disagree with that unless you think that Westminster will make up the money in these areas?
This isn't coming from a "middle class liberal from Islington and Hampstead", this is coming from a working class left wing 26 year old who grew up in South Wales and has seen what the area has gained by getting EU funding.

As for racism / xenophobia, are you trying to claim that nobody voted leave because they are racist / xenophobic? Because that is a pretty laughable claim considering the reasons some people have given for voting leave. And totally ignores the fact that I specifically said that not all leave voters are racist etc. I am in no way saying that " every white person who voted Leave is a racist". I am saying that a portion of the Leave support is racist. There is a massive difference.
 
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Harbornite

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Yes, it's clear that most that voted did their own research.

However most didn't bother voting, and the argument "nobody sold it to me well enough" is not an excuse

Fully agree, this has been one of my main bugbears with this ref.
 
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