Should We Carry on with Two Remembrance Days?

[westv]

Prior to our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan the UK really only had Rememberance day (Sunday) for many years.

Now we have this Sunday and today. Whilst Sunday is more "official" both have things that are repeated.

The question is, should we carry on with almost duplicate days each year or should one be dropped?

 

[DarloRich]

Prior to our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan the UK really only had Rememberance day (Sunday) for many years.

this is incorrect.

 

[westv]

this is incorrect.

In what way? The 11th wasn't marked in any special way for a long time from 1946 to 1995 - unless it fell on a Sunday.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Remembrance Day is the 11th November.

Remembrance Sunday is the Sunday nearest to the 11th.

That's always been the case; what has changed is that in recent years there is a greater observance of the 11th when it does not itself fall on a Sunday; this has nothing to do with any recent wars - it's more a revival of how things were originally done. It's a growing awareness, and is quite correct in my view and the 11th should continue to be observed as such in addition to the Sunday events.

 

[swt_passenger]

Until 1945 the national ceremony always took place on the 11th, then it was decided to move it to the nearest Sunday. Not sure what happened during WW2, presumably it was all a bit low key. I remember my dad saying he thought it was moved to the Sunday to avoid London closing down on a weekday. IIRC it was the 50th anniversary of the end of WW2 that precipitated the change of some increased recognition of the 11th.

 

[DarloRich]

In what way? The 11th wasn't marked in any special way for a long time from 1946 to 1995 - unless it fell on a Sunday.

Yes it was. I will agree that observance may have been low key and less "hyped" than today but the 11th was always observed.

 

[westv]

this has nothing to do with any recent wars

I don't think anybody is saying that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2021 ==

Yes it was. I will agree that observance may have been low key and less "hyped" than today but the 11th was always observed.

I was really referring to national observance rather than anything more local. For example, there was no national 2 minutes silence on the 11th for a long time - unless a Sunday of course.

 

[Mag_seven]

Yes it was. I will agree that observance may have been low key and less "hyped" than today but the 11th was always observed.

I have to disagree - I grew up in the 70s and it was only on Remembrance Sunday that anything such as a two minute silence etc was observed. It might have been different in decades before then of course.

 

[DarloRich]

For example, there was no national 2 minutes silence on the 11th for a long time

I may have to disagree again - at school ( that was quite a while a go now we certainly held a 2 minutes silence on the 11th although I do agree it wasn't "pushed" as much as it is now.

Actually I think there is a something of a debate to be had around the commercialisation or perhaps even fetishization of remembrance that we see now. IMO it should be a dignified, solemn and sober affair with little pomp or showiness.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2021 ==

I grew up in the 70s and it was only on Remembrance Sunday that anything such as a two minute silence etc was observed.

Fair enough - I think there has been more focus recently on the 2 minute silence but the 11th was observed. As I said we did observe the 2 minute silence at school but then we did have several teachers who were ex forces. I was also in the cadets so perhaps that influences my memories.

 

[XAM2175]

Actually I think there is a something of a debate to be had around the commercialisation or perhaps even fetishization of remembrance that we see now. IMO it should be a dignified, solemn and sober affair with little pomp or showiness.

I have to agree. The fetishization of the poppy in particular is something I expected more of the US than Britain.

It's interesting to compare Remembrance Day in the UK - and especially England - with how I saw it observed in Australia, where it's a much more discrete and simple affair that's closer to the original concept of commemorating the 1918 Armistice - but in fairness this is perhaps possible because the larger "remembrance" event is held instead on ANZAC Day, the 25th of April.

 

[westv]

Remembrance Day is the 11th November.

Remembrance Sunday is the Sunday nearest to the 11th.

They are still both Remembrance days.

 

[birchesgreen]

It needs to return to being a sober and respectful occasion not the virtue signalling (ironically by people who spend the rest of the year deriding virtual signalling down by "lefties") nonsense it is fast becoming. "War christmas" some have called it and they have a point. Do we need mascots dressed as giant poppies for example?

 

[LOL The Irony]

The question is, should we carry on with almost duplicate days each year or should one be dropped?

Yes, yes we should. Millions of people gave their lives (many times in vein) and it's only 4 minutes out of your year (2 when it falls on a Sunday). I think we can handle it.

Do we need mascots dressed as giant poppies for example?

Also this for those football club poppy badges.

 

[Busaholic]

i got married on 11th November (a Tuesday iirc) and back then there wasn't the recognition of the day itself that there is now, although Remembrance Sunday was commemorated nationwide. We would have married on the 10th but didn't want to conflict with my father-in-law's birthday. I don't remember anyone commenting on it being held on the 11th, but the Second World War definitely dampened some of the impetus for many years afterwards, and I seem to remember there was talk of Poppy Day disappearing as youth was seen as anti-war and sales of poppies were decreasing dramatically. It's certainly been boosted in the last two or three decades.

 

[AlterEgo]

When I was at school, before Afghan/Iraq, we definitely had a silence on the 11th when it fell on a weekday.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I need to correct myself from earlier up the thread.

The 11th is correctly known as Armistice Day, and not as I wrote earlier.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

My Mum recalls both days being observed with silences in the 50s and 60s.

 

[najaB]

When I was at school, before Afghan/Iraq, we definitely had a silence on the 11th when it fell on a weekday.

Same for me in school in the 80s and 90s.

 

[westv]

Never had a silence at my school in the 70s - London.

 

[Mag_seven]

Never had a silence at my school in the 70s - London.

I certainly can't remember one either - the only silence I remember was on remembrance Sunday (when I obviously was not at School)

 

[westv]

According to Wiki one of the reasons to move away from the 11th as the national memorial day was to try to avoid all the focus being on WW1 rather than WW2 plus other wars.

 

[malc-c]

From my understanding Armistice Day has always been marked by two minutes silence at 11:00 GMT on the 11th day of the 11th month, which was the time and date that marked the end of WW1. Post WW2 it was also used to respect those who lost their lives in both wars... In more recent times it's been associated all wars including modern conflicts, and as far as I can recall (I'm 59) the 2 minutes silence has been a regular occurrence on 1th November. The service would often take place on which ever Sunday was closest to the 11th November. My guess is this was due to the fact that a century ago it was more traditional to go to church on Sundays and dare I say that tradition was more practice back then than today, especially given our 24/7/365 working lifestyles.

Should we still continue to mark these events... Yes. Whilst with every passing year there are fewer and fewer survivors for WW1 and WW2, there are still families that have been affected by war and we should continue to support them by remembering those who lost their lives in battle.

You could equally say should we still continue with other traditions such as bonfire night. Should we really continue to "celebrate" what could only be classed a s an act of terrorism that occurred over 400 years ago ??

 

[Busaholic]

Never had a silence at my school in the 70s - London.

Nor at mine in London 1950s and 60s. In the case of my primary school, it was notionally a C of E school, but the only time in the year we attended the local Parish Church was for Harvest Festival.

 

[AlterEgo]

Should we really continue to "celebrate" what could only be classed a s an act of terrorism that occurred over 400 years ago ??

Are people who go to a bonfire and watch fireworks with a hot dog in hand really being inspired by religious terrorism in the 1600s?

 

[birchesgreen]

Well like anything the meaning fades as time goes on and people place new perspectives on events to reflect contemporary values.

Just like poppy day has become a chance for the right wing to virtue signal, as opposed to criticising people for virtue signalling as they do the rest of the year.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We definitely had silences at my school (1990s) but just for one minute. Expecting two minutes of silence was a bit much, it would seem!
I personally do the silence and reflection to this day, but I never ever buy a poppy for environmental reasons. I also don't like the way that anybody in the public eye is condemned if they don't wear a poppy during November.

As for bonfire night, surely the celebration is for the foiling of the attempted terrorism rather than the terrorism itself? We generally don't honour people by burning effigies of them.

 

[birchesgreen]

We didn't have silences when i was at skool in the 70s and 80s.

Re: meaning of bonfire night, what it means varies a lot depending on the person. I have catholic relatives who regard the event as a "celebration" of centuries of catholic repression. Obviously its not a day they like to mark. Kids around the estate just see the day as another excuse to detonate explosives to annoy people.

 

[westv]

As for bonfire night, surely the celebration is for the foiling of the attempted terrorism rather than the terrorism itself? We generally don't honour people by burning effigies of them.

I would hope that everybody knows it celebrates the foiling of the blowing up of Parliament!

 

[DarloRich]

There is a good podcast in the Rest is History series regarding evolution of Remembrance after the first world war. Worth a listen

I would hope that everybody knows it celebrates the foiling of the blowing up of Parliament!

Remember, remember the Fifth of November,
The Gunpowder Treason and Plot,
I know of no reason
Why the Gunpowder Treason
Should ever be forgot.

 

[brad465]

It needs to return to being a sober and respectful occasion not the virtue signalling (ironically by people who spend the rest of the year deriding virtual signalling down by "lefties") nonsense it is fast becoming. "War christmas" some have called it and they have a point. Do we need mascots dressed as giant poppies for example?

Here's a former soldier pretty much agreeing with you here: