Should travel by public transport be free?

[blackfive460]

Thought that would get your attention!

It isn't really but there's someone here who thinks it could be although I'm not sure on which planet that would be 'cause it ain't going to be this one anytime soon.

I'm sure we can all think of the reasons why it wouldn't work here but does anyone, beside the author, think it could?

 

[Matt Taylor]

I think the likes of National Express (coaches) and easyJet etc might have a few objections, not to mention the cost of making thousands of people redundant within and outwith the industry.

 

[Fred26]

I'm not reading that.

I love the idea of public transport being paid for out of general taxation. It's utopian though, not realistic.

 

[tbtc]

With no paid passengers there would be no need for the following: booking office clerks, ticket collectors, ticket inspectors, auditors, etc. Sack ’em all!

I'm sure Bob Crow would love this...

 

[Greenback]

It is a very Utopian idea or vision. Perhaps the displaced staff dealing with money and tickets would all become smiling customer service staff? They could patrol the platforms, trains and car parks helping passengers carry their luggage, prevent anti social behaviour, give out information, clear away snow in bad weather, make sure the facilities are spotless...hang on, I feel the need for a lie down!

 

[W-on-Sea]

I'm guessing from the title of that article that it is intended to be a joke, to illustrate the impossibility of having a fare-free sytem, rather than, as it at first appears to be doing, supporting such a proposal.

(c.f.'s Jonathan Swift's "Modest Proposal", where he suggested that poor Irish parents should eat their children in order to prevent them from becoming a social burden)

I have actually lived somewhere where a fair part of the city public transport system was free to travel on (trolleybuses and trams, but not buses - which I think were in any case run by private operators, not the equivalent of the city corporation or council; there was only a very limited local train service, and that too wasn't free).

This was in the mid-90s, "somewhere in the former Soviet union": so there are numerous factors that don't make for a direct comparison with the UK.

Anyway, it was clear that after a couple of years of this arrangement, lots of the trams were running around with missing windows, a shortage of available rolling stock had meant that several routes had been reduced to the bare minimum or in any case had no timetable that could be relied upon; and the trams were a favourite place for street drinkers to ride back-and-forth on.

It was nice to be able to travel around for free, but there was no way that that system could have been relied upon or was viable.in the long term.

 

[Fred26]

It is a very Utopian idea or vision. Perhaps the displaced staff dealing with money and tickets would all become smiling customer service staff? They could patrol the platforms, trains and car parks helping passengers carry their luggage, prevent anti social behaviour, give out information, clear away snow in bad weather, make sure the facilities are spotless...hang on, I feel the need for a lie down!

This is my thought... a return of platform staff at most stations?! Mouth-whetting!

 

[WatcherZero]

It is 'free' here Bus/Tram/Train after 9:30 (half fare before) if your over 60. Costing a ruddy fortune in subsidy though.

 

[gareth taylor]

I'll pay for a decent service. Then again you get nowt for free these days. How about some new trains for a start? In the north for a start.

 

[EM2]

He mentions in his letter to Ken Livingstone, that the cost of making TfL fare-free should be put on the rates (I assume he means Council Tax).
Unfortunately, the GLC did subsidise London Transport (as was) with money from the rates back in the early '80s, and it was declared unlawful.
From Wikipedia:

The GLC then reduced London Bus and London Underground fares, paid for by a special 'supplementary rate' in a policy known as 'Fares Fair'. Although the measure was generally popular and led to an increase in the use of public transport, it was challenged by the Conservative-controlled Bromley Council where there were no London Underground stations, and struck down as unlawful by the Law Lords in December, 1981

 

[Yank 119]

This was in the mid-90s, "somewhere in the former Soviet union": so there are numerous factors that don't make for a direct comparison with the UK.

Okay, so where was it? I guess it's a big secret. :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Going back to the article he believes that people wouldnt travel any more than they did now if it was free, this is hopelessly optimistic. For example long distance family car journey to London, perhaps £100 in fuel, people choose it over rail for the added baggage space, flexibility and for 4 it would actually cost equal or greater by rail. If suddenly it cost 0 by rail would you still travel by car or would you choose to save £100?

At peak times which are already overcrowded the only thing stopping other users is the much higher fares before a certain time, they therefore arrange the journey to be off-peak often at the cost of an hour less shopping or rushing a bit to get there, if it cost no more to travel peak than offpeak (nevermind being free) they would just add to the peak crush.#

Yes there would be some savings from no longer operating fare systems, but these are only what 5-10% of the total cost? How much more would it cost to lay on the extra capacity?

 

[tbtc]

The article is "pie in the sky" - there's no chance of getting rid of tickets (and if you did then Yorkie would never be the same...)

However, it does raise an interesting point about the journeys people don't do by rail (for one reason or another). The people travelling off-peak because they can't afford peak fares. The people who aren't taking holidays in the UK (and fly abroad, spending money in foreign countries). The "middle of the night" travellers who don't have a train to take...

 

[Butts]

I'm sure Bob Crow would love this...

He'd love it even more if they had "driverless trains" - I'm sure that will come one day - you have "The Maglev" at Birmingham Airport - admittedly the journey is not quite "Birmingham to Edinburgh"

Plus the computers/robots won't demand Triple Time plus a Lieu day for working on a Public Holiday

 

[W-on-Sea]

Okay, so where was it? I guess it's a big secret. :roll:

I could tell you, but I'd have to swallow my cyanide capsule afterwards...


No, it was Odessa, Ukraine. A beautiful city.

 

[Nick O. Teen]

In some places, I would humbly submit, it is already de facto free.

Take, for example, a busy 3-car stopper from Reading to Redhill (e.g. the 0704); 3 minutes between stations which are in many cases unstaffed. You can get on at Crowthorne and get off at North Camp, sit in the front carriage, and not be troubled by a guard. Why? Because we're at the back of the train at each station for despatch.

Genuine fare-payers will sit at the back and cough up without question. On the very rare occasions when I'm on an early spare turn and can cover despatch for a colleague, he or she will make it through to the front and mop up all the free-riders who will willingly pay up when asked, knowing that having to pay for the odd journey is more than made up for by all the freebies.

 

[Aictos]

No, I don't believe in free travel as it's always another fare payer who ends up paying higher fares to subsidy the free travel, take Peterborough for example which on a bus in the morning peak only sees less then a third of full paying passengers as the other part of the bus is made up of free/heavily discounted travel holders.

There's nothing wrong with OAPs having free travel BUT seeing as they don't get free travel on the railway then why pray should they get free travel on the main bus operator in any given town/city, on the railway they can buy discounted tickets which are valid after a certain time if I'm right which is usually after the morning peak when it's a lot quieter which is a similiar price to a child rail ticket so why don't the Government move from the free travel towards discounted travel for OAPs and other groups?

The only other issue I have with Stagecoach in particular apart from their general operations is the fact that they turn a blind eye to the users of this free perk when it's not actually valid to be used, it's like if I got free travel to use buses in Edinburgh but only after 9am but actually using it at 7am which to me is simple abuse especially as Stagecoach advertises a basic 10 minute frequency thoughout the day.

 

[Greenback]

In some places, I would humbly submit, it is already de facto free.

Take, for example, a busy 3-car stopper from Reading to Redhill (e.g. the 0704); 3 minutes between stations which are in many cases unstaffed. You can get on at Crowthorne and get off at North Camp, sit in the front carriage, and not be troubled by a guard. Why? Because we're at the back of the train at each station for despatch.

Genuine fare-payers will sit at the back and cough up without question. On the very rare occasions when I'm on an early spare turn and can cover despatch for a colleague, he or she will make it through to the front and mop up all the free-riders who will willingly pay up when asked, knowing that having to pay for the odd journey is more than made up for by all the freebies.

FGW have clearly decided that the revenue being lost when guards can't collect all of the fares is too small to warrant the extra costs associated with collecting it. If they don't mind the odd local journeys being free, why should the passengers or the staff?

No, I don't believe in free travel as it's always another fare payer who ends up paying higher fares to subsidy the free travel, take Peterborough for example which on a bus in the morning peak only sees less then a third of full paying passengers as the other part of the bus is made up of free/heavily discounted travel holders.

There's nothing wrong with OAPs having free travel BUT seeing as they don't get free travel on the railway then why pray should they get free travel on the main bus operator in any given town/city, on the railway they can buy discounted tickets which are valid after a certain time if I'm right which is usually after the morning peak when it's a lot quieter which is a similiar price to a child rail ticket so why don't the Government move from the free travel towards discounted travel for OAPs and other groups?

There used to be discounted travel schemes before the curent free travel was introduced. It was administered by local authorities. The principle behind either free or discounted travel on public transport for certain grioups is based upon the fact that these groups are less likely to have access to a car for medical reasons. Some will be on low incomes as well, and it's socially desirable to allow them to access travel in order to get to the hospital, shops and to visit friends and relations independently.

The idea of free travel as in the article is nonsensical within a capitlaist, monetary based environment. As yous ay, someone will have to pay for the fuel, staff wages, spare parts, maintenace etc.