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Should tram networks be numbered like buses?

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Bletchleyite

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No, the trams in Nottingham don't use route numbers for either route.

There's less need where there is only one way to a given destination. Metrolink is starting to get to the point where it needs them, though, certainly if a third (underground) city crossing ever happens.

Much easier to say "you need a T1 or T2" than get into where Exchange Square or Piccadilly are.
 
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NCT

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Depends. Traditional European systems are like buses on rails. UK systems tend to be light rail systems that are much more metro-like. I do think there should be line names, but I wouldn't be against continuing the British tradition of having text names (like the Overground line names) or names based on colours (the Sheffield system). The oh-eight-fifty-four to Bury via Market Street does seem inadequate.
 

Bletchleyite

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Depends. Traditional European systems are like buses on rails. UK systems tend to be light rail systems that are much more metro-like. I do think there should be line names, but I wouldn't be against continuing the British tradition of having text names (like the Overground line names) or names based on colours (the Sheffield system). The oh-eight-fifty-four to Bury via Market Street does seem inadequate.

Of course in most of Europe metro lines have numbers too :). Names also work though. The main point being as you say in the latter point - "X via Y" starts to get unnecessarily complicated when there's more than one value of Y.
 

HSTEd

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I don't really see any disadvantage to numbering, and the standardisation is advantageous in terms of simplifying the transport system.
 

LLivery

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Yes. I don't understand the resistance to identify tram routes in the UK (likewise DLR). As soon as the second line opened in Sydney, they were numbered.
 

stadler

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Not numbering our tram lines is one of those UK only oddities. Pretty much every country in Mainland Europe and the rest of the world numbers their tram lines. But we have nothing other than the destination of the tram. Croydon used to number their tram lines (1/2/3/4) and they displayed this on the front of trams and on their timetables and maps and publicity. But for some unknown reason Croydon scrapped this about ten years ago and now only show the destination. It is still used internally for working timetables. Blackpool also numbered their tram lines for a brief period last year after the Blackpool North extension opened (T1/T2/T3) but they have now scrapped the numbering within less than a year.
 
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Uncle Buck

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We should number every public transport service, including all train services. The only exception should be the London Underground, where the line names are so well-known that it would be needlessly disruptive (and it is undoubtedly true that named services are more “charming”).
 

TheGrew

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In the case of Manchester, I wonder if it is in part to allow for greater operational flexibility in the core, where a tram could be rerouted almost anywhere. If you give trams a recognizable name rather than an eventual destination, it could get confusing if a change were made.
 

stevieinselby

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We should number every public transport service, including all train services. The only exception should be the London Underground, where the line names are so well-known that it would be needlessly disruptive (and it is undoubtedly true that named services are more “charming”).
Unless you have a tram network then there's no need to number them.
The main reason for numbering bus routes is to easily distinguish one from another, especially when buses can take a variety of different routes.
If you're getting a bus from Croydon to Addington, there are 3 different services – 64, 433 and 466 – which all run different routes to get there. So if you're going to Addington, you probably want to know which one you're getting on so you don't get on the round-the-houses bus, but more importantly if you're going to Selsdon or Shirley then you really need to know which one you're getting on because some of the buses to the same endpoint won't be going your way. A bus that was just described as "Addington" wouldn't be sufficient information (especially now that TfL have removed intermediate points from the destination boards), and so numbers are needed.
But for the trams, the lines are fixed and there are only four of them. A tram that says "New Addington" on the front is unambiguously going on a set route. Even for passengers who aren't familiar with the transport network and so might not know that a bus to X is the only bus to X, it's pretty easy to find out that there's only one tram line to New Addington. Apart from Manchester, none of our tram networks are big enough to warrant line numbers.

With trains, it kind of goes the other way. In too many cases there aren't set routes that have a consistent calling pattern, and so adding numbers would in many cases make it more complicated than it is now. How many different service numbers would you need for LNER trains? I can see at least 9 service patterns that repeat regularly through the day, not to mention the odds and sods like Hull and Skipton and Aberdeen, but then even among those there are some peak-time variations. But unlike a bus network, trains don't call at all stops along the route. It's very easy to draw a map showing the three different bus routes between Croydon and Addington with each route being numbered, but how do you do that clearly on railway when different trains between London and Newcastle running on the same route have different calling patterns? Does EC01 cover all trains between Kings Cross and Edinburgh including those terminating at York and Newcastle? If so, that's no better than the current system for anyone going to Darlington, if anything it's probably worse. Or do you have different route numbers for EDB fast, EDB slow, NCL and YRK (plus all the other branches and offshoots)? Because now you've got a confusing and unholy mess. If the rail network had neat, consistent service patterns then route numbers might work, but not with what we've got now!
 

Bletchleyite

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Unless you have a tram network then there's no need to number them.

I think it was the second city crossing that has brought us there in Manchester's case. It is now quite confusing in my view.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

With trains, it kind of goes the other way. In too many cases there aren't set routes that have a consistent calling pattern, and so adding numbers would in many cases make it more complicated than it is now. How many different service numbers would you need for LNER trains? I can see at least 9 service patterns that repeat regularly through the day, not to mention the odds and sods like Hull and Skipton and Aberdeen, but then even among those there are some peak-time variations. But unlike a bus network, trains don't call at all stops along the route. It's very easy to draw a map showing the three different bus routes between Croydon and Addington with each route being numbered, but how do you do that clearly on railway when different trains between London and Newcastle running on the same route have different calling patterns? Does EC01 cover all trains between Kings Cross and Edinburgh including those terminating at York and Newcastle? If so, that's no better than the current system for anyone going to Darlington, if anything it's probably worse. Or do you have different route numbers for EDB fast, EDB slow, NCL and YRK (plus all the other branches and offshoots)? Because now you've got a confusing and unholy mess. If the rail network had neat, consistent service patterns then route numbers might work, but not with what we've got now!

I wasn't proposing it with trains, but it is telling to me that LNER's service is so messy compared to the WCML that this would be hard to do. Virgin did number the WCML routes, and there were only 5 or 6 of them if I recall rightly. But the WCML, aside from very early/late in the day, is a pretty simple pattern and is totally clock face, LNER is a bit more random with its through services to anywhere and everywhere.
 

Sorcerer

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Without doing proper research on the matter, the answer for me to this question lies in whether or not Switzerland does it, and then I would advocate following their example as the masters of public transit. :D
 

py_megapixel

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Metrolink, curiously, has different coloured routes on the map but doesn't refer to these by name or give them numbers. It's odd how averse they are to it.

Link to a Metrolink map:
There used to be letters (on the map but nowhere else) but they were removed. Bizarrely there's a new-ish departure board at Manchester Airport which does actually refer to the "Navy Line" but it's the only example I'm aware of anywhere on the network that does this! (And there's only one line at the Airport, so it's a bit redundant).

The other problem is that they seem to be running out of colours. We already have both blue and navy (and there's also purple, which is difficult to distinguish from those for some colourblind people; I'm sure that's not the only colour combination on the map that presents the same challenge).

They should really just number them something like T1 though T7 and be done with it...
 

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Bantamzen

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In the case of Manchester, I wonder if it is in part to allow for greater operational flexibility in the core, where a tram could be rerouted almost anywhere. If you give trams a recognizable name rather than an eventual destination, it could get confusing if a change were made.
This has been the case over the last year with lots of closures for maintenance & repairs, so there may be value in not numbering them as routes can be changed quickly to suit changing needs. So long as a) There is adequate information at stops such as network maps, and announcements when changes are taking place, and b) the information is clear once on the trams where it is routed to and which stops to make interchanges at I don't see a need to change anything.
 

eldomtom2

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This has been the case over the last year with lots of closures for maintenance & repairs, so there may be value in not numbering them as routes can be changed quickly to suit changing needs.
Bus routes can be changed even more easily, yet they're numbered.
 

PTR 444

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With trains, it kind of goes the other way. In too many cases there aren't set routes that have a consistent calling pattern, and so adding numbers would in many cases make it more complicated than it is now. How many different service numbers would you need for LNER trains? I can see at least 9 service patterns that repeat regularly through the day, not to mention the odds and sods like Hull and Skipton and Aberdeen, but then even among those there are some peak-time variations. But unlike a bus network, trains don't call at all stops along the route. It's very easy to draw a map showing the three different bus routes between Croydon and Addington with each route being numbered, but how do you do that clearly on railway when different trains between London and Newcastle running on the same route have different calling patterns? Does EC01 cover all trains between Kings Cross and Edinburgh including those terminating at York and Newcastle? If so, that's no better than the current system for anyone going to Darlington, if anything it's probably worse. Or do you have different route numbers for EDB fast, EDB slow, NCL and YRK (plus all the other branches and offshoots)? Because now you've got a confusing and unholy mess. If the rail network had neat, consistent service patterns then route numbers might work, but not with what we've got now!
I think it could work for inner-suburban heavy rail services though. The SWR metro network for example could be given a range of numbers for each of its off-peak services, with suffixes for peak extras that skip or call at additional stations.
 

Tester

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Without doing proper research on the matter, the answer for me to this question lies in whether or not Switzerland does it, and then I would advocate following their example as the masters of public transit. :D

Then you will be advocating for numbers!
 

zwk500

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Lines do not specifically need numbers, but for Metro/Tram networks I would strongly advocate some kind of distinct naming for each line.
That could be numbers, letters, colours, or names (as per LU) or a combination of them.

Interestingly google maps will tell you to get a blue line tram in Manchester.
 
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Interestingly google maps will tell you to get a blue line tram in Manchester.
We used the tram from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Victoria for the first time last September. I knew we needed to get the yellow line so having sorted out the ticket we saw a yellow tram approaching and hopped on.

I then noticed that the onboard information didn't appear to show us going to Vic so asked a fellow passenger who told me that yes we were not on a yellow line tram so we alighted at the first stop to await the correct tram.

It was only while standing at the tram stop that it dawned on me - I claim too many birthdays in mitigation - that ALL the trams are yellow! I was expecting a blue line tram to be blue and a yellow line one to be yellow etc.

Maybe if I'd known I needed a number 3 tram rather than a yellow line I wouldn't have made the same mistake!
 

zwk500

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Maybe if I'd known I needed a number 3 tram rather than a yellow line I wouldn't have made the same mistake!
Tbf that could also be mitigated by 1. Not using the livery colour for a specific line (or using the livery colour for the most important line only) and 2. Having the line colour very visible on the displays (Manchester's destination displays aren't the brightest/clearest I've found).

Sheffield trams have been blue for quite a while and use a Blue, Purple and Yellow line. Do people regularly end up on the wrong line for Sheffield? I know their network is essentially a big Y but I don't think this would be a killer issue for making numbers preferable.
 

aron2smith

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Traditional tram networks (late 19th/ early 20th century) had dozens and dozen of routes and in the bigger networks were ran by multiple companies.

No trams in Britain today are close to big enough to that to justify numbers. All of today's tram systems seem more like light rail metro instead of anything like a bus. Manchester's is by far the biggest but feels more like the tube but with street running in the centre instead. I couldn't help but compare it with the Tube and Tyne and Wear Metro when riding it.

So in short trams are a long way from needing route numbers. Croydon's is 3 or 4 routes. Manchester is possibly 7 routes. Nottingham 2. Sheffield 4. Blackpool, Birmingham and Edinburgh just 1! It's nothing to what existed before the 50s.
 

TheWierdOne

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Sheffield trams have been blue for quite a while and use a Blue, Purple and Yellow line. Do people regularly end up on the wrong line for Sheffield? I know their network is essentially a big Y but I don't think this would be a killer issue for making numbers preferable.
Manchester Bee Network could definitely take a leaf from Sheffield here. Especially given they have a yellow line, and literally all of their trams are yellow. I’d imagine that if their current end displays cannot do different colours it would be something to specify in a refit, which the older M5000s must be due for in the not too distant future?
 

HSTEd

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I make Manchester's system between nine and eleven routes for trams, depending on you deal with the diversions of the Eccles trams to MEdia City and the extensions of Piccadilly terminators to the Etihad.


I think that is more than enough to justify numbers, personally.
 

zwk500

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I make Manchester's system between nine and eleven routes for trams, depending on you deal with the diversions of the Eccles trams to MEdia City and the extensions of Piccadilly terminators to the Etihad.


I think that is more than enough to justify numbers, personally.
And yet London copes fine with names for far more routes. At least having colours makes them distinct from ordinary bus routes in journey planners or what else. Manchester definitely needs a bit more than just the final destination and a via point though.

That being said, I did find Berlin's S-bahn practice of having a route with a single-digit number, and then various branches of that route taking two-digit numbers using that first digit (e.g. S2 and S25). So you could call the Eccles-Ashton service line 'M1' and then services via MediaCity are route 'M11', while the MediaCity-Etihad Campus route could be 'M15'.
 

YorksLad12

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Leeds (being Leeds) numbered its tram routes sequentially from 1 to around 27-ish. Route 1 was the actual first public transport route, over 150 years ago, running from the centre of Leeds out towards Headingley. A while back, First renumbered this to 24 as it was a 24-hour service. Don't get me started...

When motor bus routes came in, the sequence continued from 28-ish upwards (to around 77 in the 1970s). As tram routes were converted to motor bus, many kept their original route number.

I suspect that these days they're given colours and similar to mark them as being 'different' to the nasty motor bus.
 

William3000

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And yet London copes fine with names for far more routes. At least having colours makes them distinct from ordinary bus routes in journey planners or what else. Manchester definitely needs a bit more than just the final destination and a via point though.

That being said, I did find Berlin's S-bahn practice of having a route with a single-digit number, and then various branches of that route taking two-digit numbers using that first digit (e.g. S2 and S25). So you could call the Eccles-Ashton service line 'M1' and then services via MediaCity are route 'M11', while the MediaCity-Etihad Campus route could be 'M15'.
The names have been there for decades and are engrained in the psyche. I am still getting used to the new Overground names and still not always sure which is which but I guess in a couple of decades they will be one second nature
 

Bletchleyite

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No trams in Britain today are close to big enough to that to justify numbers. All of today's tram systems seem more like light rail metro instead of anything like a bus. Manchester's is by far the biggest but feels more like the tube but with street running in the centre instead. I couldn't help but compare it with the Tube and Tyne and Wear Metro when riding it.

And both the Tube and the T&W Metro have line identifiers. They're not numbers, sure, but they also aren't just destinations.
 
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