Should train driving be a graduate profession?

[bramling]

Good job nobody had any ideas like this when I joined the railway. I didn’t even finish school or take a single exam let alone go on to any sort of further education. I couldn’t wait to get away from it yet have been in continuous railway employment for over 38 years the last 24 of them up front

I don’t think anyone is advocating that having a degree-level qualification should be a *requirement*. Absolutely not, as having a mix of people is going to bring multiple strengths to the table.

However the other extreme is that I’m sensing here that some people feel that qualifications are essentially worthless and undesirable, which I don’t think is, or should be, the case either. It’s not unreasonable that someone who has taken the time and trouble to get a qualification should gain an element of advantage from that.

 

[Stigy]

Good job nobody had any ideas like this when I joined the railway. I didn’t even finish school or take a single exam let alone go on to any sort of further education. I couldn’t wait to get away from it yet have been in continuous railway employment for over 38 years the last 24 of them up front

Likewise. I left school with no GCSEs and was at a time when if you weren’t particularly high achieving, you were left to get on with it and forgotten about.

 

[dk1]

I don’t think anyone is advocating that having a degree-level qualification should be a *requirement*. Absolutely not, as having a mix of people is going to bring multiple strengths to the table.

However the other extreme is that I’m sensing here that some people feel that qualifications are essentially worthless and undesirable, which I don’t think is, or should be, the case either. It’s not unreasonable that someone who has taken the time and trouble to get a qualification should gain an element of advantage from that.

Within grades like train driving many qualifications just seem worthless to me. I looked further education as stopping me from the potential to earn good money which in the end the railway gave me. I was always going to be guaranteed an income through my parents trade as publicans but being on that side of the counter never appealed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Likewise. I left school with no GCSEs and was at a time when if you weren’t particularly high achieving, you were left to get on with it and forgotten about.

I was never keen on learning anything I wasn’t interested in but always knew I had potential given the right incentive. Right from the days of my 11 plus my Mum would say “he’s not going to do well today, he’s not in the mood” but then given the right career I could & have proved myself hard working with an exemplary attendance record to boot.

 

[jettofab]

I'm not advocating one way or the other for this but I thought that a discussion could be opened regarding the idea.

I'll try and lay out a for and against argument. Firstly, any time TOCs advertise for trainee drivers they are inundated with applications running into the thousands for often only a few vacancies. I have never worked in recruitment so cannot comment about the TOCs' sifting methods to separate the wheat from the chaff. Often the wrong type of candidate is allowed to work their way through the system and secure their trainee position.

Without trying to be condescending, reading the grammar of some prospective drivers on this very forum and some of the comments made shows that education maybe hasn't featured highly in their lives. Being able to read and write well would prepare candidates for the classroom, a university education proves that candidates have a track record of immersing themselves in information and can deal with the theory in the training process.

Looking to the aviation sector, it is not necessary for an airline pilot to be a graduate but then again airlines attract a different kind of candidate. Why is that? Are pilots considered to be professionals and train drivers not? Trainee drivers do not need to worry about paying for their training, yet pilots do through repayment of bonds etc. Is train driving viewed as an easy job to land and qualify for, hence the high application numbers? Is the training bond route one for TOCs to explore? After all they would still have a huge amount of applications.

Lastly, who would be excluded from such a policy, apart from the obvious non graduates?

This is fairly poorly constructed for someone passing comment on the education levels of others.

No, train driving should not be a graduate profession. Placing arbitrary barriers in the way of recruitment only narrows the pool and the devaluing of degrees post Blair means many are worthless as a measure of anything other than an ability to complete a UCAS application. The desire to funnel everyone into higher education devalues vocational occupations to the detriment of the country as a whole.

Someone with a degree may find the training school easier than someone without, but that is far from guaranteed and frankly the training school bears only a passing resemblance to the reality of train driving anyway. Equally, a graduate is no more likely to be a bad driver than any other, where graduate refers to an applicant who has a degree rather than someone fast tracked into the role via a graduate scheme.

 

[bramling]

Within grades like train driving many qualifications just seem worthless to me. I looked further education as stopping me from the potential to earn good money which in the end the railway gave me. I was always going to be guaranteed an income through my parents trade as publicans but being on that side of the counter never appealed.

I guess the answer is that it depends.

Someone who wants to progress beyond, or even sideways from, being a driver is definitely going to derive some level of advantage, at the very least from being likely to have a very good standard of written communication. Being able to write good reports, for example, is an extremely powerful skill to have, as is being able to do it quickly. Just thinking through my place, the standard of report-writing is absolutely shocking, and has got worse over time which says a lot for the UK’s education system!

I’m a bit jaundiced on this as my place has some awful graduates in various roles, but a very much higher proportionate number of even more awful non-graduates!

 

[Aviator88]

and the whole system of references is nothing more than a farce IMO.

Hear, hear! Basing a final decision of employment on the lottery of receiving a reference from a stranger with unknown morals or agenda.

 

[dk1]

I guess the answer is that it depends.

Someone who wants to progress beyond, or even sideways from, being a driver is definitely going to derive some level of advantage, at the very least from being likely to have a very good standard of written communication. Being able to write good reports, for example, is an extremely powerful skill to have, as is being able to do it quickly. Just thinking through my place, the standard of report-writing is absolutely shocking, and has got worse over time which says a lot for the UK’s education system!

I also spent 9 of my Railway career years before driving as a clerical officer so that’s never been an issue for me or the paper work involved with my trainee drivers. Some of my colleagues however break into a sweat at the thought of it,

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

The natural progression for some is driver manager. That has never appealed to me & am more than content with my lot. I haven’t had to do nights for 12 years now but would have to occasionally & be on call as a DM. The thought of that & believe it or not, wearing a tie again is enough to not get my application.

 

[bramling]

Hear, hear! Basing a final decision of employment on the lottery of receiving a reference from a stranger with unknown morals or agenda.

Yes an absolutely horrendous way to do things. As you say, essentially a stranger, with any number of potential agendas.

I’ve always thought references should be illegal. A central database simply confirming dates and how a person came to leave a job would fulfil the function just as well.

Having said that, there of course remains the possibility for people to simply pick up the telephone, so there’s always going to be an element of risk.

 

[jettofab]

I guess the answer is that it depends.

Someone who wants to progress beyond, or even sideways from, being a driver is definitely going to derive some level of advantage, at the very least from being likely to have a very good standard of written communication. Being able to write good reports, for example, is an extremely powerful skill to have, as is being able to do it quickly. Just thinking through my place, the standard of report-writing is absolutely shocking, and has got worse over time which says a lot for the UK’s education system!

I’m a bit jaundiced on this as my place has some awful graduates in various roles, but a very much higher proportionate number of even more awful non-graduates!

This is true, although one of the nice things about driving is that it feels like one of the last few occupations where it's not automatically assumed that everyone wants to progress. Long may that continue!

 

[Stigy]

Yes an absolutely horrendous way to do things. As you say, essentially a stranger, with any number of potential agendas.

I’ve always thought references should be illegal. A central database simply confirming dates and how a person came to leave a job would fulfil the function just as well.

Having said that, there of course remains the possibility for people to simply pick up the telephone, so there’s always going to be an element of risk.

That’s generally all a professional reference contains anyway. It’s character references which raise eyebrows.

 

[the sniper]

Why do you hope that day never comes? I’m very intrigued…

Because needing to get a mortgage to buy your way into a shot at a job doesn't sound right?

 

[dk1]

Because needing to get a mortgage to buy your way into a shot at a job doesn't sound right?

Amusing to hear the groans in the messroom from those who are driving trains and still paying off student debt for something they now have no need or use for. Whether that helped them get the job is debatable.

 

[Simotrfc]

I'm not advocating one way or the other for this but I thought that a discussion could be opened regarding the idea.

I'll try and lay out a for and against argument. Firstly, any time TOCs advertise for trainee drivers they are inundated with applications running into the thousands for often only a few vacancies. I have never worked in recruitment so cannot comment about the TOCs' sifting methods to separate the wheat from the chaff. Often the wrong type of candidate is allowed to work their way through the system and secure their trainee position.

Without trying to be condescending, reading the grammar of some prospective drivers on this very forum and some of the comments made shows that education maybe hasn't featured highly in their lives. Being able to read and write well would prepare candidates for the classroom, a university education proves that candidates have a track record of immersing themselves in information and can deal with the theory in the training process.

Looking to the aviation sector, it is not necessary for an airline pilot to be a graduate but then again airlines attract a different kind of candidate. Why is that? Are pilots considered to be professionals and train drivers not? Trainee drivers do not need to worry about paying for their training, yet pilots do through repayment of bonds etc. Is train driving viewed as an easy job to land and qualify for, hence the high application numbers? Is the training bond route one for TOCs to explore? After all they would still have a huge amount of applications.

Lastly, who would be excluded from such a policy, apart from the obvious non graduates?

Can’t tell if this is a wind up or not. Are you a journalist for the Daily Mail?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

If the job paid £30,000 a year top end, would you still be suggesting it should be a graduate position?

I've met a few people during my time as a HGV driver who seem to think that by virtue of having a degree they are entitled to earn more money than those who didn't follow the higher education pathway, and look down on jobs that enable "uneducated" people to earn more. Particularly where I currently work where graduates with responsible jobs earn way above the average, yet still less than I. What they fail to see is that they earn say £40k, but they work 9-5 Monday to Friday. I sacrifice months away from my family every year, not being able to participate in hobbies, and generally having a much lower quality of work/life balance.

The ability to drive well, be it trains, HGVs or even cars is in my opinion an innate skill that can only be taught to a certain level. There are plenty of educated people, who have been passed competent to drive a car, that struggle to negotiate roundabouts in the correct lane, have no sense of direction or geography, or require a rest stop for a 3 hour run down a motorway because the specific type of focus require is mentally draining.

There's a reason why certain industries seem to be a pipeline into the railway industry (police, fire, military, sometimes HGV/Bus drivers) as seen on here, as those industries nuture the type of temperament and mindset that creates a good, calm under pressure, safety conscious employee further down the line.

If you make driving, and let's say signalling, graduate positions, or even created specific degrees in those disciplines, you would be cutting off a massive pool of applicants with the most important asset that I believe Network Rail/the various TOCS look for. Life and work experience. Many on here, like myself, are looking at the railway as a second, or even third or fourth career.

It could well be my own projection here, but this topic smells quite a bit of "Keep the well paying jobs for the graduates that have "earned" them, leave the school leavers to the minimum wage"

Absolute nail on the head.

 

[the sniper]

Amusing to hear the groans in the messroom from those who are driving trains and still paying off student debt for something they now have no need or use for. Whether that helped them get the job is debatable.

I must be more compassionate, I feel sorry for them!

 

[Sheridan]

Someone with a degree may find the training school easier than someone without, but that is far from guaranteed and frankly the training school bears only a passing resemblance to the reality of train driving anyway.

Indeed, I don’t think my degree course with its maximum of 6 hours’ teaching a week (less in some years) would really prepare anyone for a train driver course, apart from the need to do work in your own time perhaps.

 

[matt_world2004]

Very few jobs are “working class jobs” now and a driver’s salary is certainly not working class.

Working class isn't dependent on salary but weather the job is physical or sells their body as labour (Like construction work , cleaning etcbetc) , going on the Marxist definition I would argue despite sitting in the cab of a train . The job is physical because the environment doesn't have the comforts of an office particularly when it comes to toilet breaks and facilities

 

[Efini92]

Why do you hope that day never comes? I’m very intrigued…

Having a pay to train model would only attract applicants that are wealthy or have family members who are willing to remortgage their house.
All the potential candidates that don’t fall into those categories would never get a chance.

 

[Ediswan]

Wealth isn't a requirement for going to university. Fees etc are all paid in retrospect based on earning.

There are numerous reports that the maintenance loans are not sufficient. Something has to fill the gap, either wealth, or taking a job (or two).

 

[Wyrleybart]

Some of the best drivers I know only have high school education, one doesn’t even have a licence to drive cars.

Agree.
My best buddy never had a driving licence but was an excellent train driver. Another driver I know had to leave DB because of their reorg a few years ago, because he didn't have a driving licence.

To be honest, I think the OP's tone is a little derogatory, and as another poster puts it, train driving is a working class job. I have worked with train drivers since 1994 although socialising with them from the early 1980s, but I agree the role has changed somewhat - moreso because of the political demographic in the UK.

 

[devon_belle]

My university education has not featured any grammar tests...

This post has a very strange tone to it. Graduates are typically above average on only very specific axes of intelligence/competence. I would not feel more comfort in knowing my train driver evaluated the Classics or derived the Schrödinger equation, as opposed to finding out they have good reflexes, attention span, and technical memory!

So many people are forced into getting a degree because they think they need it to get a good job. I don't think we need to make this problem worse by extending this fact to other industries.

 

[bramling]

My university education has not featured any grammar tests...

This post has a very strange tone to it. Graduates are typically above average on only very specific axes of intelligence/competence. I would not feel more comfort in knowing my train driver evaluated the Classics or derived the Schrödinger equation, as opposed to finding out they have good reflexes, attention span, and technical memory!

What someone has a degree in isn’t really what counts, except in certain specialised industries. However it does show certain things.

Firstly that the person achieved decent results at school, as to reach university someone needs to have successfully negotiated the school system from start to finish; that’s an achievement in itself. Then completing the degree will have required a certain amount of dedication, endurance, oral and written communication, and perhaps most of all good self-organisation and self-motivation.

Perhaps ironically there is actually a fair amount of relevance to train driving in that list, especially when one considers that two of the aspects of train driving many people struggle with are getting through the very long and intensive training, and disciplining their life around shifts.

So many people are forced into getting a degree because they think they need it to get a good job. I don't think we need to make this problem worse by extending this fact to other industries.

Again, degrees aren’t really necessarily about simply getting a good job. But what a good degree *is* likely to do is get someone into that good job rather more fast-tracked than someone without one.

Take something like London Underground as a real example, who used to run a graduate scheme (not sure if they still do). Someone could be in an operational management role by the age of about 24 off the back of that. Without this route it would be seriously pushing it to do that. Having said that, ex apprentices can wind up in certain well-paying roles like driver or service control on LU at quite a young age, but can then find they hit a glass ceiling precisely because some people struggle with stuff like report writing.

It may well be argued that someone aged 24 is a bit young for some of these roles, but to be brutally honest I’d take a 24-year-old sharp graduate any day of the week over some late middle-aged simpleton of whom the only thing they’re good at is winding desk lamp cables round table legs - and I’m sorry to say that’s a real example!

There may well be people who wonder themselves, or have other wondering on their behalf, “did I really need a degree to do this?”, however should they decide to go for something else they will still likely find they have elements of advantage, even many years after.

 

[Stigy]

What someone has a degree in isn’t really what counts, except in certain specialised industries. However it does show certain things.

Firstly that the person achieved decent results at school, as to reach university someone needs to have successfully negotiated the school system from start to finish; that’s an achievement in itself. Then completing the degree will have required a certain amount of dedication, endurance, oral and written communication, and perhaps most of all good self-organisation and self-motivation.

Perhaps ironically there is actually a fair amount of relevance to train driving in that list, especially when one considers that two of the aspects of train driving many people struggle with are getting through the very long and intensive training, and disciplining their life around shifts.




Again, degrees aren’t really necessarily about simply getting a good job. But what a good degree *is* likely to do is get someone into that good job rather more fast-tracked than someone without one.

Take something like London Underground as a real example, who used to run a graduate scheme (not sure if they still do). Someone could be in an operational management role by the age of about 24 off the back of that. Without this route it would be seriously pushing it to do that. Having said that, ex apprentices can wind up in certain well-paying roles like driver or service control on LU at quite a young age, but can then find they hit a glass ceiling precisely because some people struggle with stuff like report writing.

It may well be argued that someone aged 24 is a bit young for some of these roles, but to be brutally honest I’d take a 24-year-old sharp graduate any day of the week over some late middle-aged simpleton of whom the only thing they’re good at is winding desk lamp cables round table legs - and I’m sorry to say that’s a real example!

There may well be people who wonder themselves, or have other wondering on their behalf, “did I really need a degree to do this?”, however should they decide to go for something else they will still likely find they have elements of advantage, even many years after.

You don’t need to be successful at school to go to university, just have the grades that will get you in. These can be obtained any time.

 

[Carl98k]

It makes no difference if someone has a degree or not. I get that it proves you’ve taken and completed a course, however, nothing can make up for the specific skills required.

Being able to remain calm under pressure, make sound decisions and follow strict rules isn’t something that you learn at university. Life experience and certain job roles hold you in much better stead than a degree.

Before I came on the railway I worked as a petrol tanker driver, and the amount of graduate managers thought tried to tell you me how to complete my job was unreal. I wouldn’t mind but no of them had ever been in the cab with a driver, and they’re trying to tell you how to deliver fuel because they’ve read a book on it.

These exact same people would also carry out investigations in to incidents and try and tell drivers the best way to manage sleep. Which went down well with the union as these “managers” work Monday to Friday 9-5.

 

[Runningaround]

No - limiting the eligibility pool reduces the likelihood of finding the best talent, and thus negatively affects safety.

Also, I hate to say it, but if you need to turn up for work at a time dictated by somebody else in order to keep a roof over your head, you're working class! Middle class is financial independence from employment and upper class is vast inherited wealth in my opinion.

Are footballers:
Working class; Due to the nature of the job, outdoor work, physically demanding, no qualifications needed. It's much more physically demanding than train driving and if you include training on and off the job more time consuming

Middle class; Above National league well paid to extremely well paid or in semi-pro in two jobs and free to choose.

Upper class; So well paid at elite level they can afford to never work again and are living a life that only the aristocracy and industrial barons could afford.

 

[bramling]

It makes no difference if someone has a degree or not. I get that it proves you’ve taken and completed a course, however, nothing can make up for the specific skills required.

Being able to remain calm under pressure, make sound decisions and follow strict rules isn’t something that you learn at university. Life experience and certain job roles hold you in much better stead than a degree.

Before I came on the railway I worked as a petrol tanker driver, and the amount of graduate managers thought tried to tell you me how to complete my job was unreal. I wouldn’t mind but no of them had ever been in the cab with a driver, and they’re trying to tell you how to deliver fuel because they’ve read a book on it.

These exact same people would also carry out investigations in to incidents and try and tell drivers the best way to manage sleep. Which went down well with the union as these “managers” work Monday to Friday 9-5.

That’s a different problem, though. Firstly that the industry described above evidently hadn’t given the graduate managers enough of a grounding, and perhaps secondly that it had recruited people with the wrong attitude.

The flip side of the coin is that you can have someone who has been doing a job for very many years but simply can’t get to grips with stuff like report-writing or the analytical skills that management requires.

Where this becomes relevant to train driving is the next level up requires people who are good at both knowing/understanding the job *and* the aforementioned other stuff. My observations suggest finding such people proves extremely difficult. Same with the earlier point about DI’s having to fill out paperwork. As I posted elsewhere, having a mix of backgrounds brings the most to the table. That table needs to be well filled with skills if the setup as a whole is going to function effectively.

 

[devon_belle]

What someone has a degree in isn’t really what counts, except in certain specialised industries. However it does show certain things.

Firstly that the person achieved decent results at school, as to reach university someone needs to have successfully negotiated the school system from start to finish; that’s an achievement in itself. Then completing the degree will have required a certain amount of dedication, endurance, oral and written communication, and perhaps most of all good self-organisation and self-motivation.

Perhaps ironically there is actually a fair amount of relevance to train driving in that list, especially when one considers that two of the aspects of train driving many people struggle with are getting through the very long and intensive training, and disciplining their life around shifts.

I do agree with you - degrees are useful and many of them indicative of genuine positive qualities. However, there is also a lot that a degree doesn't teach you, which definitely needs to be taken into account by employers. I've taught a fair amount of undergraduates recently and there is a real sense of tumbling through education in order to gain qualifications, without any direction or auxiliary skill-development. It probably depends greatly on the degree programme too.

I am not a train driver so I may have a warped perspective on how useful a degree is to that job. My point was that I am opposed to a degree being treated as a requirement for a role when there are many people that would be great (e.g.) train drivers without one. It is a very expensive burden to place on young people/people changing careers.

If train companies are struggling to sift through thousands of applications, for example, then perhaps they should invest in more hiring staff or a better application process. Salary alone should not be a reason for a job to be graduates-only.

 

[Aviator88]

Are footballers:
Working class; Due to the nature of the job, outdoor work, physically demanding, no qualifications needed. It's much more physically demanding than train driving and if you include training on and off the job more time consuming

Middle class; Above National league well paid to extremely well paid or in semi-pro in two jobs and free to choose.

Upper class; So well paid at elite level they can afford to never work again and are living a life that only the aristocracy and industrial barons could afford.

I think you answered your own question - class isn't necessarily defined by job title, but by overall circumstances!

 

[bramling]

I do agree with you - degrees are useful and many of them indicative of genuine positive qualities. However, there is also a lot that a degree doesn't teach you, which definitely needs to be taken into account by employers. I've taught a fair amount of undergraduates recently and there is a real sense of tumbling through education in order to gain qualifications, without any direction or auxiliary skill-development. It probably depends greatly on the degree programme too.

I am not a train driver so I may have a warped perspective on how useful a degree is to that job. My point was that I am opposed to a degree being treated as a requirement for a role when there are many people that would be great (e.g.) train drivers without one. It is a very expensive burden to place on young people/people changing careers.

If train companies are struggling to sift through thousands of applications, for example, then perhaps they should invest in more hiring staff or a better application process. Salary alone should not be a reason for a job to be graduates-only.

I’d agree with the above. In a perfect setup you’d have a mix of graduates and non-graduates, and in a well performing environment they would mentor and learn from each other which in the end would form a strong workplace team.

Hence you’d expect companies to look favourably on degrees, but not see it as a requirement, nor a magic bullet.

My immediate workplace did once work a bit like that as different people brought different things to the table, but what’s happened is over time the experienced longer servers have gone, and have essentially been replaced with rubbish as the proverbial barrel has had to be scraped. I don’t mean to sound dismissive when I talk about rubbish, but when 50% of the team has been off sick over Christmas for three years running I’d say the term is entirely appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are numerous reports that the maintenance loans are not sufficient. Something has to fill the gap, either wealth, or taking a job (or two).

Many students do it via jobs. Wealth may give you more drinking time but is not necessary.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I went to university. I saw professors with doctorates struggle to turn on a projector. Academic achievement doesn't necessarily show competence.

And some of the worst teachers (that literally can not teach) are PhDs. So I agree with your sentiment.