Should train companies use Starlink to provide on-board internet access?

[azOOOOOma]

Moderator note: Split from

LNER Further Improves 4G Mobile and WiFi Coverage on East Coast Main Line

Hopefully this helps a little bit in mobile phone reception on this part of the ECML. https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2025/09/lner-further-improves-4g-mobile-and-wifi-coverage-on-east-coast-main-line.html in May 2025 mobile operator O2 announced the deployment of a new custom-built...

www.railforums.co.uk

I wish they’d use SpaceX. I think Qatar Airways have it now. If you can do it on a plane you can do it on a train.

 

[JamesT]

I wish they’d use SpaceX. I think Qatar Airways have it now. If you can do it on a plane you can do it on a train.

Planes don’t generally go through tunnels…

 

[azOOOOOma]

True but for the 99% of the time that trains aren’t in tunnels, it would be an amazing service.

 

[skyhigh]

True but for the 99% of the time that trains aren’t in tunnels, it would be an amazing service.

Bridges, station canopies, cuttings etc would probably also make it quite unreliable (not to mention the cost).

 

[D1537]

I wish they’d use SpaceX. I think Qatar Airways have it now. If you can do it on a plane you can do it on a train.

Where are you mounting the satellite dish?

Starlink is expensive for anything more than residential use, as well.

 

[ainsworth74]

How's the trial working out on Scotrail with Starlink?

Trains operating in the Scottish Highlands will offer unprecedented access to satellite technology – transforming how customers can stay connected when travelling with ScotRail.

In a UK-first for onboard passenger Wi-Fi, ScotRail has worked with Clarus Networks to design a new system which allows trains operating in rural Scotland to connect with a Low Earth Orbit (LEO) satellite network.

Six class 158 trains, which will be in service in the north of Scotland from Inverness to Wick, Thurso, Kyle of Lochalsh, and Aberdeen, have been fitted with this equipment for a six-month trial.

The project will address the long-standing on train connectivity challenges in the region, and is the result of a partnership between ScotRail and Bathgate-based Clarus Networks.

It has been supported by the Scottish Government, Highlands and Islands Enterprise, and the Scottish Futures Trust.

ScotRail kicks-off a new era in rail communication technology

Trains operating in the Scottish Highlands will offer unprecedented access to satellite technology – transforming how customers can stay connected when travelling with ScotRail.In a UK-first for onboard passenger Wi-Fi, ScotRail has worked with Clarus Networks to design a new system which allows...

www.scotrail.co.uk

 

[QueensCurve]

I wish they’d use SpaceX. I think Qatar Airways have it now. If you can do it on a plane you can do it on a train.

We really shouldn't be giving business to someone who incites violence in our country and seeks to undermine our democracy.

 

[azOOOOOma]

I’m not sure what you mean. But if we are going to go into the owners of products and whatnot, surely the diesel fuel needs looked at given the widespread human rights abuses in many of the countries that we import crude oil from to create diesel products?

I’d hate for anyone to be able to claim that there is a two tier system where people want to ban a product over the words of one CEO, versus the actual actions of numerous regimes who mistreat migrant workers, stone women and execute LGBT. Not to mention the human rights abuses involved in the mining of elements for use in batteries.


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Where are you mounting the satellite dish?

Starlink is expensive for anything more than residential use, as well.

Where did Scotrail mount theirs?

 

[Pete_uk]

Where did Scotrail mount theirs?

On the roof.

I would have thought 5G would be better in both terms of high capacity (1.8/2.1Ghz) and coverage (700Mhz) (other frequencies are available)

The wifi on board would then be limited to the TOCs back end systems.

 

[D1537]

Where did Scotrail mount theirs?

Not sure. But they used a very small amount of older units which probably have more space to install this type of stuff. There are 65 Azumas.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Well. No matter where aerials are mounted or provides it, something needs to be done as the WiFi is abysmal.

What about having the current system plus Starlink as a paid for extra?

 

[MrJeeves]

I would have thought 5G would be better in both terms of high capacity (1.8/2.1Ghz) and coverage (700Mhz) (other frequencies are available)

In those frequency ranges, benefits of 5G versus 4G are extremely limited. Really not worth it at all.

 

[D1537]

Well. No matter where aerials are mounted or provides it, something needs to be done as the WiFi is abysmal.

What about having the current system plus Starlink as a paid for extra?

Then you'd have to have enough people paying to make the costs worthwhile. Many people would like to have Internet access on their train - however the number (a) for whom it is very important, and (b) who are willing to pay for it, is in my experience very small indeed - especially when there is regular 4G/5G along the line, even if there are a few dead spots.

 

[WirralLine]

We really shouldn't be giving business to someone who incites violence in our country and seeks to undermine our democracy.

So we shouldnt use a modern day method to improve connectivity because the media tells you you're not supposed to like the guy who owns it?

 

[azOOOOOma]

So we shouldnt use a modern day method to improve connectivity because the media tells you you're not supposed to like the guy who owns it?

That was my understanding. But at the same time we are ok using oil products from dictatorships, human rights abusers, LGBT murderers and subjugators of women.

Make it make sense.

 

[Starmill]

Well. No matter where aerials are mounted or provides it, something needs to be done as the WiFi is abysmal.

What about having the current system plus Starlink as a paid for extra?

I believe so far Starlink have refused to enter into any contracts without one of the terms being that there must be no charges to consumers.

Of course, Starlink have competitors.

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I wish they’d use SpaceX. I think Qatar Airways have it now. If you can do it on a plane you can do it on a train.

Qatar Airways and Air France are rather more premium-focused than LNER. They can afford to spend outrageous amounts of money on mobile data when they're running aircraft with so many premium, business and first seats onboard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==

On the roof.

I would have thought 5G would be better in both terms of high capacity (1.8/2.1Ghz) and coverage (700Mhz) (other frequencies are available)

The wifi on board would then be limited to the TOCs back end systems.

The Far North may be one of the better options for a supplementary form of satellite data because there are hardly any overall rooves or canopies at intermediate stations along the route, and few overbridges. The existing mobile data towers are relatively under-developed and would cost relatively more to upgrade given the small number of users and train services. Whether Starlink are competitive on price even for that smaller-scale deployment I don't know. The Edinburgh - London route is mostly within the range of where conventional data systems can be upgraded or new hardware installed to reach particular areas that passenger trains go through without much call for the public to be there in any other circumstances. The inside of tunnels in central London fit that description of course.

 

[jon0844]

So we shouldnt use a modern day method to improve connectivity because the media tells you you're not supposed to like the guy who owns it?

I don't need the media to tell me Elon Musk is a horrible, racist, snake oil salesman. But I charge my car at Tesla super chargers so guess I'm a hypocrite!

 

[Chris125]

So we shouldnt use a modern day method to improve connectivity because the media tells you you're not supposed to like the guy who owns it?

Helpfully he provides all the evidence you need for this on his own social media platform.

 

[Starmill]

So we shouldnt use a modern day method to improve connectivity because the media tells you you're not supposed to like the guy who owns it?

I think the post you're quoting has little to do with the media nor anything really other than his recent speech concerning what he claimed was "uncontrolled" migration to Britain.

In case anyone isn't familiar with the actual words in use, here's what he said:

"Whether you choose violence or not, violence is coming to you. You either fight back or you die."

I'd say that's pretty clear and doesn't require any media inferences. I also do not think that it has been the first bit taken our of context, nor could it really be. The same speech was also used to call for the dissolution of the British Parliament.

 

[Brubulus]

I believe so far Starlink have refused to enter into any contracts without one of the terms being that there must be no charges to consumers.

Of course, Starlink have competitors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==


Qatar Airways and Air France are rather more premium-focused than LNER. They can afford to spend outrageous amounts of money on mobile data when they're running aircraft with so many premium, business and first seats onboard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Sep 2025 ==


The Far North may be one of the better options for a supplementary form of satellite data because there are hardly any overall rooves or canopies at intermediate stations along the route, and few overbridges. The existing mobile data towers are relatively under-developed and would cost relatively more to upgrade given the small number of users and train services. Whether Starlink are competitive on price even for that smaller-scale deployment I don't know. The Edinburgh - London route is mostly within the range of where conventional data systems can be upgraded or new hardware installed to reach particular areas that passenger trains go through without much call for the public to be there in any other circumstances. The inside of tunnels in central London fit that description of course.

The prices that Starlink charge for railway connectivity don't seem outrageous at first. They would charge £324 per month for 2tb plus £150 per additional TB for their single country Land Mobility package. I suspect this would be a substantial increase on current prices but not that ridiculous given the improvement in connectivity.

 

[jon0844]

The prices that Starlink charge for railway connectivity don't seem outrageous at first. They would charge £324 per month for 2tb plus £150 per additional TB for their single country Land Mobility package. I suspect this would be a substantial increase on current prices but not that ridiculous given the improvement in connectivity.

As you say, it would be a large increase on what operators pay today. It's been some time since I've seen the rates charged to businesses (which are unlimited, although perhaps with a fair use policy that is substantially greater than consumer or SME tariffs) but I think they'll be about a tenth of that.

Three, which never really made it in the business world and thus offered stupid deals, was charging small businesses £2.50+VAT per month for unlimited data - with the only condition being it was an add-on account for a primary number. But you could multiple SIMs for the same £2.50! Absolutely insane pricing. That deal did end some time ago and now as part of the Vodafone Three merger is unlikely to return - but, getting back to my point, I think Starlink is likely going to be too expensive unless there are significant business discounts.

 

[Brubulus]

As you say, it would be a large increase on what operators pay today. It's been some time since I've seen the rates charged to businesses (which are unlimited, although perhaps with a fair use policy that is substantially greater than consumer or SME tariffs) but I think they'll be about a tenth of that.

Three, which never really made it in the business world and thus offered stupid deals, was charging small businesses £2.50+VAT per month for unlimited data - with the only condition being it was an add-on account for a primary number. But you could multiple SIMs for the same £2.50! Absolutely insane pricing. That deal did end some time ago and now as part of the Vodafone Three merger is unlikely to return - but, getting back to my point, I think Starlink is likely going to be too expensive unless there are significant business discounts.

The comparison for Starlink isn't with existing solutions though, it's with the legal changes to allow MNOs to use NR infrastructure for 5G, given they will likely pay for it themselves or with a small subsidy from the railway. (Starlink wipes the floor in comparison to the capital cost of the construction of separate infrastructure on almost every line)

 

[yorksrob]

No, not until its owned and managed by a fit and proper person to run a company.

Even then, I'd think twice as it would exacerbate our over-dependence on American tech.

 

[jon0844]

The comparison for Starlink isn't with existing solutions though, it's with the legal changes to allow MNOs to use NR infrastructure for 5G, given they will likely pay for it themselves or with a small subsidy from the railway. (Starlink wipes the floor in comparison to the capital cost of the construction of separate infrastructure on almost every line)

Building proper ground infrastructure that can be upgraded with future technologies would be wiser than just chucking money at Starlink, which I am not sure is making sufficient money to keep maintaining the sheer number of satellites up there, going up, or needing to be replaced in the coming years.

As with anything from Elon, the market doesn't seem to care about profitability or longevity. All it needs is for him to stand on a stage and promise that something even better is 'coming next year'.

Don't get me wrong, Starlink works well and I saw dishes all over the Lakes and it's also great for people travelling/camping (the newer ones consume a lot less power so can be powered from portable power stations with ease) but there are a lot of flaws that someone camping doesn't need to worry about, while the railway should.

 

[JamesT]

Building proper ground infrastructure that can be upgraded with future technologies would be wiser than just chucking money at Starlink, which I am not sure is making sufficient money to keep maintaining the sheer number of satellites up there, going up, or needing to be replaced in the coming years.

As with anything from Elon, the market doesn't seem to care about profitability or longevity. All it needs is for him to stand on a stage and promise that something even better is 'coming next year'.

Don't get me wrong, Starlink works well and I saw dishes all over the Lakes and it's also great for people travelling/camping (the newer ones consume a lot less power so can be powered from portable power stations with ease) but there are a lot of flaws that someone camping doesn't need to worry about, while the railway should.

Starlink is probably profitable. https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/...ly-as-it-faces-a-moment-of-promise-and-peril/

An updated projection from the analysts at Quilty Space estimates that the service produced $7.8 billion in revenue in 2024, with about 60 percent of that coming from consumers who subscribe to the service. Similarly, the media publication Payload estimated that Starlink generated $8.2 billion in revenue last year.

These estimates indicate that Starlink produced a few hundred million dollars in free cash flow for SpaceX in 2024. However, with revenues expected to leap in 2025 to above $12 billion, Quilty Space estimates that free cash flow will grow to about $2 billion. SpaceX is privately held, so its financial numbers are not public.

Remember that SpaceX's reusable rockets have massively decreased the cost of getting stuff into orbit.