Should there be more stations on HS2?

[Bletchleyite]

The appropriate solution for the Chilterns is a Dutchified timetable to Moor Street when punters pick up HS2 services to the north from Curzon Street. 1.5 hours at 160km/h plus the rest of the way at ~300km/h at a half-hourly frequency for most destinations is a high-quality journey by any European standard.

In theory it is, but people won't do that. In the UK most people prefer to drive to a station for a direct train to their destination. This is largely because of the unreliability of connections.

See also the not insignificant use of Wigan North Western by car from the areas north of Liverpool despite it theoretically being just as easy to take Merseyrail into Liverpool and change there.

 

[NCT]

In theory it is, but people won't do that. In the UK most people prefer to drive to a station for a direct train to their destination. This is largely because of the unreliability of connections.

See also the not insignificant use of Wigan North Western by car from the areas north of Liverpool despite it theoretically being just as easy to take Merseyrail into Liverpool and change there.

Then the UK can carry on being a flailing failing country. These are the national habits that make ourselves an inefficient laughing stock. We should be tackling these structural problems at source. Instead there's an obsession of pandering and proposing even more inefficient 'workarounds' (see discussions on 'de-Thameslink') - they just make the problems worse.

 

[MarkyT]

Fortunately for the railway, that side of the city is the very well off part, which means more demand for parking one's Range Rover up to pay a full price Anytime Return for a trip to London. It's replicating this near London (Buckinghamshire is one of the richest parts of the country) that I see as a massive lost opportunity.

Interesting point.

These people aren't going to drive to Aylesbury and take an hour-long stopper into Marylebone then faff about getting to Euston from there, nor probably even drive to Tring* even with its direct into Euston, they'll just drive the Rangie all the way to where they're going, or possibly drive to Heathrow (which is far easier to drive to than OOC or Euston) and fly on BA.

But stopping long-distance trains there en route to Northern cities is wasteful of paths, unless all trains stop. An arrival path and a departure path is needed for every stopper, that can't be used for anything else. Note OOC will be far more accessible by road from west London suburbia than Euston.
Some Chilternites may find a drive to Birmingham Interchange a viable alternative, for more northerly destinations rather than those in the West Midlands clearly.

* Tring may as well be called "South Buckinghamshire Parkway" - that's a significant proportion of its usage given how slow (albeit civilised) the Aylesbury line is and given how Tring itself is little more than an oversized village.

I'd rather nothing was called 'parkway'. That's not to say I'm against stations having car parks, which most outside dense urban areas already have anyway! My proposal, with two additional junctions and no new stations on HS2 itself, could provide some new Chilterns - The North connectivity by stopping the HS2 - Oxford trains at Bicester Village. That could also provide single change rail connectivity to towns between there and Marylebone such as High Wycombe. That London journey times from Aylesbury are fairly poor and 'drive' many people in surrounding towns and villages to other local stations on faster parallel routes is perhaps a good reason to improve the 'South Bucks' offering by implementing my fast commuter service diverging from HS2 at Wendover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting point.

But stopping long-distance trains there en route to Northern cities is wasteful of paths, unless all trains stop.

I don't see why all trains shouldn't stop. After all HS2 is about capacity and connectivity. It might even be a good idea to partner with coach companies to provide a network of connecting coaches from places like Brackley that have no rail service at all!

An arrival path and a departure path is needed for every stopper, that can't be used for anything else. Note OOC will be far more accessible by road from west London suburbia than Euston.

I'm not arguing against OOC, I'm arguing for an additional station (though only one, more than that would start to negate the point).

Some Chilternites may find a drive to Birmingham Interchange a viable alternative, for more northerly destinations rather than those in the West Midlands clearly.

Some will, yes. I'm not convinced as many will as if there was a station further south, particularly not from places in Metroland much closer to London. (And no, they largely won't drive to OOC, it's too far into the built up area).

 

[NCT]

I don't see why all trains shouldn't stop. After all HS2 is about capacity and connectivity. It might even be a good idea to partner with coach companies to provide a network of connecting coaches from places like Brackley that have no rail service at all!

Connectivity can be achieved with conventional sensible European solutions.

Whatever the strategic objective, there's still the marginal benefits (a trickle of Chiltern punters) vs marginal disbenefits (all through passengers suffering a longer journey) vs costs (15-minute increase in round trip time, the capex of an OOC sized station). I can't ever see anything other than an extremely p!ss poor marginal business case.

 

[eldomtom2]

If you think of HS2 as an extra pair of tracks for the WCML and the Chiltern line and not a separate line (or think of the existing lines as the HS2 slow lines), they already in effect have stations in the locations you mention and the fastest trains already pass through without stopping at these stations so why would you stop trains that you are seeking to speed up further at locations such as these when existing fast trains don’t stop?

The Tokaido Shinkansen literally was (as part of a legal dodge to avoid going through some potentially hostile governmental approvals) classed as new tracks for the existing conventional lines, and it has nine stations over its first 140 miles, the same length as HS2 Phase 1, which has four stations. Many of these stations were right on the outskirts of the urban areas they were intended to serve when they first opened in the 1960s. Intermediate stations are even being built to serve minor cities on the Chuo Shinkansen maglev, built to relieve the Tokaido Shinkansen and take a more direct route directly through mountain ranges.

 

[Krokodil]

I think this misses the point of a Buckinghamshire or Maple Cross Parkway. This wouldn't be for travelling to London, but *from* it - indeed, for the exact reason you state I wouldn't expect tickets from such a station to/from London to be sold at all. These Parkway stations tend to do well - consider Stockport as an example, because most people live in suburbs, not in city centres.

300k people live within a 5km radius of Stockport. Only 60k people live within 5km of Maple Cross. Stockport is much further into Manchester than Maple Cross is to London.

 

[SynthD]

nor probably even drive to Tring* even with its direct into Euston

How is this theoretical station better than Tring for the whole network? What better could be done with Tring (on top of the HS2 benefits) for far cheaper than additional stations? (Same also applies north of Birmingham at stations I couldn’t name. I think it's on topic as it's asking which fast line should serve city suburbs and rural towns as parkways.)

 

[biggerisbetter]

I don't see why all trains shouldn't stop. After all HS2 is about capacity and connectivity. It might even be a good idea to partner with coach companies to provide a network of connecting coaches from places like Brackley that have no rail service at all!


I'm not arguing against OOC, I'm arguing for an additional station (though only one, more than that would start to negate the point).

I cannot see justification for stopping every long distance high speed train at a parkway station in the London commuter belt where passengers will not be able to travel to London. If this were viable then would every Avanti service not stop at Milton Keynes but be set down only towards London?

How much demand is there for slightly quicker journey times north from this part of the country? If residents already have access to a car then they can drive to another station for a slower service north as at present or may already live within walking distance of a station to travel into London or Old Oak Common to pick up a faster service there.

Don’t get me wrong I am not saying there would be no demand or that there wouldn’t be any benefits but I don’t think it would justify the additional infrastructure and operational costs plus the increased journey times for the vast majority of travellers.

What I could see as an alternative (and this is where my previous marketing, communication and timetabling points come in) might have been improvement of an existing station such as Tring through stopping more northbound services there post HS2, increased car parking and potentially coupled with some further residential development around the station to boost usage to provide better links north for that Buckinghamshire Parkway market.

 

[Topological]

It primarily is with regard to London trains. Many of the users of London services are likely driving there from leafy, rich South Manchester and north Cheshire and aren't locals. If HS2 2B ever happens, Manchester Airport station will replace most of its role in that sense.



It's really not anything like Old Oak Common. It has a bit in common with Stratford in terms of its local transport role, but not in terms of the Parkway role because it's much easier to drive to (just off the M60) than either OOC or Stratford.



Fortunately for the railway, that side of the city is the very well off part, which means more demand for parking one's Range Rover up to pay a full price Anytime Return for a trip to London. It's replicating this near London (Buckinghamshire is one of the richest parts of the country) that I see as a massive lost opportunity. These people aren't going to drive to Aylesbury and take an hour-long stopper into Marylebone then faff about getting to Euston from there, nor probably even drive to Tring* even with its direct into Euston, they'll just drive the Rangie all the way to where they're going, or possibly drive to Heathrow (which is far easier to drive to than OOC or Euston) and fly on BA.

* Tring may as well be called "South Buckinghamshire Parkway" - that's a significant proportion of its usage given how slow (albeit civilised) the Aylesbury line is and given how Tring itself is little more than an oversized village.

I do agree.

I also think we have to be realistic about the need to build houses. Focusing around a HS2 station would make a lot of sense, instead of piecemeal adding to all the villages in the area with no public transport provision.

I can see that going up the M40 and using Birmingham Interchange works too though, so I would allow London tickets on HS2. They would just be more like Birmingham to London price and then people can buy them if they really want (and I think they would).

 

[Bletchleyite]

300k people live within a 5km radius of Stockport. Only 60k people live within 5km of Maple Cross. Stockport is much further into Manchester than Maple Cross is to London.

Maple Cross is just off the M25. I'd expect a far larger hinterland than that.

Stockport is closer in, but it's just off the M60.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2025 ==

How is this theoretical station better than Tring for the whole network? What better could be done with Tring (on top of the HS2 benefits) for far cheaper than additional stations? (Same also applies north of Birmingham at stations I couldn’t name. I think it's on topic as it's asking which fast line should serve city suburbs and rural towns as parkways.)

Tring isn't on HS2. It's that simple.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2025 ==

I cannot see justification for stopping every long distance high speed train at a parkway station in the London commuter belt where passengers will not be able to travel to London. If this were viable then would every Avanti service not stop at Milton Keynes but be set down only towards London?

To be fair, as it grows, one of the key reasons for HS2 Phase 1 is improved services at MKC...