Yes, on new units (since at least around 2018) it's standard for them to support remote OTMR viewing. My TOC is currently implementing it on 15x too, so it's hardly impossible.
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Should there be discretion on Delay Repay thresholds?
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Kilopylae
Member
I would have to agree with Watershed and redreni here. If the train comes to a stand 10 minutes before the doors can be safely released, most wouldn't be impressed at being told their journey wasn't delayed by 10 minutes!
Furthermore, as I understand it, if we are being as pedantic as this, the present data feeds don't actually establish when the train came "to a stand", but when it entered the platform's signal section.
redreni
Established Member
I'm no expert but based on earlier discussions, there's a timed event such as passing a track circuit at the end of the platform (or sometimes at some earlier point) plus an offset which is supposed to allow time for the train to enter the platform and release the doors. It's usually pretty accurate, but not accurate enough to be declining claims where the data says the delay was 29 and 3/4 minutes.
If by 'recording delays' you mean the arrival time that counts for Delay Repay, I don't need to campaign for anything. It is already the legal position, as recognised in aviation law for example (where EU/UK261 similarly don't define the 'arrival' time). When a wrongly rejected/underpaid claims is appealed, TOCs typically accept this point.
If there is anything to campaign for, it is the use of more accurate data to decide claims in the first instance.
The time the train comes to a stand is a complete irrelevance as far as the passenger is concerned. They cannot alight it yet at that point give the interlocking on modern trains; there may have been more mileage in such an argument in the days of non-CDL slam-door stock but that's long gone now. It is the time you are first able to alight that counts.
The fact that you're talking about other people impeding your exit and suggesting people "would try it" - none of which I suggested, nor do they have any bearing on Delay Repay - makes it clear that you're just interested in supporting the industry's position no matter how unreasonable it might be, rather than looking at the matter objectively.
On many trains there will be a 5-10 second wait before the doors are released. On some occasions it will be considerbaly longer, e.g. if the guard has to release the doors but is completing a ticket sale or isn't at the right door in time. Even more so if the train is being coupled up on arrival or there is a technical fault which delays release.
I agree that's what happens in practice but that does not mean that the industry data used is definitive. As mentioned above, if a passenger challenges the delay recorded (ideally with contradicting evbidence), the TOCs don't really have grounds to stand on and most accept such appeals.
The industry currently uses TD data because it's not interested in putting in the legwork to use a more accurate source, and most people just accept that. I agree that this should be changed but there is no point lobbying for it, you would have to design an end-to-end technical solution and market it to the TOCs or NR for there to be any chance of it getting anywhere.
I'm not in a position to do that, but I'm quite entitled to put across my views - as well as to explain the legal position - on this as it is a forum for discussions.
Whilst I do agree that morally arrival time should be taken as once the doors open, as a parallel I am also cognisant that aviation quotes the landing (touchdown) time and not the on stand or door open time - which can be very different, especially if there is congestion on the apron, or one or the stairs, transfer bus or driver for the air stairs doesn't turn up, or the airport can't handl passengers embarking one aircraft whilst another flight disembarks so you get held in the plane or indeed your transfer bus crashes on its way to the terminal. Yup, I have experienced all of the above.
The touchdown time is not the arrival time in aviation, much though some onboard announcements like to suggest it is .
Kilopylae
Member
You must have thought the staff were making that one up when they announced the reason for the delay in getting the doors open.
walkingsophie
Member
Most people are willing to argue over a few pounds. Most people are not willing to argue over a few pence, which is what this would amount to.
Arrival time is clearly defined for the purposes of EU261 - it’s the time the first passenger door is opened and available for use for the first passenger to leave the aircraft. The latter part was established by a court case and only really comes into play if the aircraft is on a remote stand and buses are not available immediately.
Most modern aircraft record opening time automatically, to the nearest second, with separate records for ‘first passenger door’ and ‘first cargo door’, so there is no need (or even ability) for airlines or crews to adjust or doctor the figures. Most even upload the data automatically too. To put ‘modern’ in context, for BA the last aircraft where any part of this was a manual process were retired in 2020.
There is no reason something similar couldn’t be used in the railways, if the will were there. I’d be surprised if the most modern trains didn’t record it already, even if it doesn’t go anywhere.