Should the UK join Schengen?

[XAM2175]

Ireland is a complication to the whole thing, I'd agree. However Ireland does benefit more from freedom of physical movement (i.e. the CTA) with the bit of the UK it is physically joined to.

I'm with you that if the land border is removed, then the issue is massively simplified, but that's not where we are now.
I also agree that Ireland's priority will be maintaining free movement with the UK, but I would also contend that Ireland has shown it would prefer to be in Schengen.

It's worth noting for the avoidance doubt that "freedom of movement" can be quite a semantically-tortured phrase, and it's important to draw the distinction as in the original post between "freedom of physical movement" (that is, the absence of routine controls) and "freedom of movement" in the EU sense (that is, the right to pass through controls). There is nothing at all preventing the co-existence of routine controls with freedom of movement - as of course that was the arrangement up until the time the UK left the EU.

Technically the CTA functions in the same way; it guarantees the rights of British and Irish citizens to freedom of movement throughout the CTA, but conveys no explicit freedom from controls. Indeed the Irish government's official position is that crossing from Northern Ireland into the Republic without controls is only available to British, Irish, or EU/EEA citizens - persons of other nationalities are (on paper, at least) required to present themselves to the Garda or Irish Immigration Service after they've crossed.

 

[102 fan]

Continuing from another thread.



Ireland is a complication to the whole thing, I'd agree. However Ireland does benefit more from freedom of physical movement (i.e. the CTA) with the bit of the UK it is physically joined to.

However, I'd see Irish reunification as near inevitable within 30 years or so. This being the case, the whole island of Ireland could then join Schengen if it saw fit at that point. The main need for the CTA is for travel between the two parts of Ireland, which would simply be one country then. It's not really needed for Ireland<->Great Britain, because we just get back to "if you're flying or going on a boat, showing your passport is not a great hassle".

Potential Scottish independence is a complicator. However, I'd rather a hard, patrolled border than giving in to Sturgeon's unworkable "leaky CTA" proposal, and it needs to be made clear that if Scotland does join Schengen that is near certain to be what happens. At present, Sturgeon is selling something that is impossible - being in the CTA *and* Schengen - and that misselling must be called out. It is one or the other, and if it's Schengen then there will be a hard border. And that's on the basis that I would vote for Scottish independence were I a Scot - but I would want Scotland to remain in the CTA, not Schengen. The EU is playing hardball on this at present but I reckon in practice it would relent.

But the Channel Tunnel isn't a proper land border. You can't drive over it, you can't walk over it, and even if we were in Schengen there wouldn't be a half hourly local stopping EMU running over it. It acts like air travel, and still would even were we in Schengen.



Certainly. Showing your passport is simply not an effort when compared to the law enforcement and immigration issues that would be posed by having fully open borders to the EU. It does cause queues when flying, but usually those queues are just time you'd spend standing by the baggage carousel. In the vast majority of my experience I'm at the carousel before my bags, even at fast airports like Luton. OK, some people don't check a bag, but the pricing schemes of low cost airlines are now pushing people back towards doing so, having discovered that lots of large carry-ons slow boarding significantly, and most people can't do more than a one night trip on the very small size of underseat bag that is now free.

I also wouldn't rule out in-person passport checks (which the UK doesn't do outbound anyway) being phased out in favour of some form of electronic checks before boarding card issue, for instance, alongside a quick automatic biometric or photo check on boarding. Then the friction is reduced to entering your passport details once on the website of the transport provider, and if you use them more than once they can be saved on there for re-use.

It's very easy to blithely talk about reunification when it isn't your political future in question.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Because neither the UK nor Ireland has ID cards?

No need for that, it would be enough to adopt the Irish rules on an all-CTA basis. They have pretty sensible rules for British/Irish citizens.

 

[Starmill]

As an aside, I once had a VERY bad work week which went London-Turin-Milan-Frankfurt-Stockholm-Zurich-Paris-London and I didn't need my passport except for the first and last legs which was ..... weird!

I wouldn't see that as weird though, I think that's a uniquely British lens. It works well between the continental countries specifically because it lowers the friction of travel for work and leisure so much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2022 ==

It's very easy to blithely talk about reunification when it isn't your political future in question.

I agree that the point is deeply serious and that blithe tone is unhelpful, but the essence of the matter is that the UK leaving the EU in the way that it did is likely to be be irreversible, and also likely to be fatal to Northern Ireland's place in the UK.

The Trade & Cooperation Agreement inevitably pushes Northern Ireland's economy away from that of England, Wales, and Scotland and towards that of the Single Market. Lots of people are trying to deny that right now but unfortunately it's an inescapable conclusion. I suspect that deep down many of those people know they're wrong, and this is just their holding position while they await further events.

As it's so difficult to reverse this process, and more to the point nobody in power in England is currently willing to even contemplate reversing it, it's likely to be a matter of when rather than if that Northern Ireland severs its union with England, Scotland and Wales.

 

[Cloud Strife]

It's worth noting for the avoidance doubt that "freedom of movement" can be quite a semantically-tortured phrase, and it's important to draw the distinction as in the original post between "freedom of physical movement" (that is, the absence of routine controls) and "freedom of movement" in the EU sense (that is, the right to pass through controls). There is nothing at all preventing the co-existence of routine controls with freedom of movement - as of course that was the arrangement up until the time the UK left the EU.

Yes, I think it's important to note that Freedom of Movement as a concept started with the Treaty of Rome in 1957, but freedom of physical movement wasn't implemented fully until 1995, and even then, it wasn't part of the EEC/EC/EU structures originally. Schengen wasn't even originally intended to be about full freedom of physical movement, but rather it was to only provide a way of passing through border controls without stopping, only slowing down.

The original agreements can be found here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2000:239:0001:0473:EN:PDF

I really recommend anyone interested in the topic to read the original agreements, because it contains quite a lot of interesting information about how Schengen evolved. For instance, from the original 1985 Treaty:

Article 1 As soon as this Agreement enters into force and until all checks are abolished completely, the formalities for nationals of the Member States of the European Communities at the common borders between the States of the Benelux Economic Union, the Federal Republic of Germany and the French Republic shall be carried out in accordance with the conditions laid down below.

Article 2 With regard to the movement of persons, from 15 June 1985 the police and customs authorities shall as a general rule carry out simple visual surveillance of private vehicles crossing the common border at reduced speed, without requiring such vehicles to stop. However, they may carry out more thorough controls by means of spot checks. These shall be performed where possible off the main road, so as not to interrupt the flow of other vehicles crossing the border.

Article 3 To facilitate visual surveillance, nationals of the Member States of the European Communities wishing to cross the common border in a motor vehicle may affix to the windscreen a green disc measuring at least eight centimetres in diameter. This disc shall indicate that they have complied with border police rules, are carrying only goods permitted under the duty-free arrangements and have complied with exchange regulations.

This shows that the original intent of Schengen was to formalise what already existed, i.e. that controls were already becoming very light between the five original signatories.

Indeed the Irish government's official position is that crossing from Northern Ireland into the Republic without controls is only available to British, Irish, or EU/EEA citizens - persons of other nationalities are (on paper, at least) required to present themselves to the Garda or Irish Immigration Service after they've crossed.

Yes, they are to present themselves at the first available opportunity. I've asked the Garda before what this means in practice, and they replied that if you're travelling by public transport, then you should do it at your destination, otherwise on foot/private transport, you should do it at the first police station upon entering the State.

The UK is intending on implementing the same thing, and I would say that it would be a great improvement to the CTA if there were common rules regarding entry among all five jurisdictions.

 

[Enthusiast]

This debate about "freedom of Movement" somewhat misses the point. It wasn't the freedom of physical movement that troubled many people who voted to leave. It was the freedom to settle here which disturbed them. Some 450m people had the inalienable right to settle in the UK whether the UK government liked it or not, and some 6m did. That was the issue with FoM, not whether or not they had to wave a passport or ID card at the airport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This debate about "freedom of Movement" somewhat misses the point. It wasn't the freedom of physical movement that troubled many people who voted to leave. It was the freedom to settle here which disturbed them. Some 450m people had the inalienable right to settle in the UK whether the UK government liked it or not, and some 6m did. That was the issue with FoM, not whether or not they had to wave a passport or ID card at the airport.

I know that was the issue of the Brexiteers, but it's not so much my issue. My issue is that we need control of who enters the country, not who settles from the EU. Thus we need hard outer borders.

"Freedom of movement" is a misnomer as it applies to non-Schengen EU membership, it might be better phrased as "freedom of settlement and work".

 

[AlterEgo]

I know that was the issue of the Brexiteers, but it's not so much my issue. My issue is that we need control of who enters the country, not who settles from the EU. Thus we need hard outer borders.

"Freedom of movement" is a misnomer as it applies to non-Schengen EU membership, it might be better phrased as "freedom of settlement and work".

We don’t have hard outer borders in practice. 1% of Albania’s adult male population have already entered the country in the last two years via small boats, and they’re not in the EU, even.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We don’t have hard outer borders in practice. 1% of Albania’s adult male population have already entered the country in the last two years via small boats, and they’re not in the EU, even.

Imagine how many would have done if they could just jump on a ferry or Eurostar...

 

[AlterEgo]

Imagine how many would have done if they could just jump on a ferry or Eurostar...

Make no mistake, the asylum and "small boats" system is broken as hell. But the Albanians - who come from a designated safe country and thus their only asylum claim is "being trafficked", which they have done voluntarily, simply to make that claim - must be sent back and severely disincentivised from arriving here. They are dragging the resources of an already appallingly underfunded Border Force and Home Office away from helping individuals and families who are genuinely fleeing persecution and war. And yes, the government's sheer incompetence and malice in regard to the latter is just as much a factor. A total mess.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Make no mistake, the asylum and "small boats" system is broken as hell. But the Albanians - who come from a designated safe country and thus their only asylum claim is "being trafficked", which they have done voluntarily, simply to make that claim - must be sent back and severely disincentivised from arriving here. They are dragging the resources of an already appallingly underfunded Border Force and Home Office away from helping individuals and families who are genuinely fleeing persecution and war. And yes, the government's sheer incompetence and malice in regard to the latter is just as much a factor. A total mess.

I can't disagree with any of that.

 

[johncrossley]

Do people in Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium etc. wish they never joined Schengen or the Euro?

 

[zwk500]

Do people in Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium etc. wish they never joined Schengen or the Euro?

It's fairly popular but not unviersally: https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2218 (this paper is from 2018, so before the Pandemic.) Notably in that paper is that 40% of UK respondents believed that the UK was in the Schengen Area!

 

[GS250]

Do people in Germany, the Netherlands, France, Belgium etc. wish they never joined Schengen or the Euro?

Belgium has always been something of a 'non country'. Yes... I'm aware of who also said this.

Netherlands and France would be interesting as they appear to be a bit less EU enthusiastic than before.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can see the benefits in terms of making it easier to trade across borders, but countries like Greece and Germany sharing monetary policy was never going to work well. I understand the Blair government were initially in favour of the UK adopting the Euro - I think we had a lucky escape.

Are you under the impression that the £ is a stronger currency that the €?
The £ has sunk, at varying dates and speeds, against most competitor currencies since WW2 (or WW1, when the first economic disaster struck).

The UK's ambivalent attitude to the Euro (ranging from toleration to outright Daily Express hostility) means we are "on our own" with the £ in a small world.
The Euro has 5 times the base of the Pound, and multiple strong trading economies behind it (DE, FR, NL, FI etc).
Most of the EU non-Euro states are actually closely tied to it (eg DK, SE).
Us joining the Euro would have strengthened the Euro (particularly against the US$) and given us a more stable currency.
Only Gordon Brown's 5 tests stopped us joining in the early Blair years - he was anti, Blair was pro.
Much the same considerations apply to Schengen, to which we turned our noses up around the same time.

Rejoining the EU in any capacity would commit us to join both Euro and Schengen - as Scotland, if it goes independent, will discover.
The multiple opt-outs we had will no longer be on the table.

 

[Sm5]

This thread seems way off topic.

should we join Schengen..

Why, what benefit would it bring to the UK if implemented in isolation ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==

Are you under the impression that the £ is a stronger currency that the €?
The £ has sunk, at varying dates and speeds, against most competitor currencies since WW2 (or WW1, when the first economic disaster struck).

The UK's ambivalent attitude to the Euro (ranging from toleration to outright Daily Express hostility) means we are "on our own" with the £ in a small world.
The Euro has 5 times the base of the Pound, and multiple strong trading economies behind it (DE, FR, NL, FI etc).
Most of the EU non-Euro states are actually closely tied to it (eg DK, SE).
Us joining the Euro would have strengthened the Euro (particularly against the US$) and given us a more stable currency.
Only Gordon Brown's 5 tests stopped us joining in the early Blair years - he was anti, Blair was pro.
Much the same considerations apply to Schengen, to which we turned our noses up around the same time.

Rejoining the EU in any capacity would commit us to join both Euro and Schengen - as Scotland, if it goes independent, will discover.
The multiple opt-outs we had will no longer be on the table.

100% agree.

we sunk our own boat and cast away our recuers, we are in the water and need to learn how to swim on our own now.
sadly a lot of our own are going to suffer, through poor communications of those who seeked to influence voter decisions voters who chose to hit the red button rather than thinking about it first.

Academics globally will study this for at least a hundred years. When I filled in the 2021 census, there was a comments section in it for the first time, and I made my thoughts known for those reading in the future.

 

[GS250]

The Euro also has a number of basket case economies to answer to as well. Let's also be fair, the immediate benefit to most ordinary UK citizens was the relative strength of the pound when it came to holiday time. In or out the EU, Euro, SM etc, a lot of Brits still like to go to Europe for their holidays. Maybe a short sighted reason to believe in a strong currency but there you go.

The elephant in the room for Schengen was the apparition of a huge number of refugees/economic migrants into the Eurozone. All of a sudden the spirit of union of which Schengen was supposed to have fostered across the EU was shattered. Most notably when a handful of countries started to erect physical barriers.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why, what benefit would it bring to the UK if implemented in isolation ?

Compared to most of the rest of Europe, we are in isolation.

 

[Cloud Strife]

We don’t have hard outer borders in practice. 1% of Albania’s adult male population have already entered the country in the last two years via small boats, and they’re not in the EU, even.

What I find strange is that the UK is so poor at processing asylum claims. It shouldn't be difficult to figure out that "oh, this bloke is Albanian" and put him immediately on a flight home. People think Schengen is the problem, but a huge part of the problem is an asylum system that isn't fit for purpose.

Most notably when a handful of countries started to erect physical barriers.

I would argue that the existing barriers is much closer to what was intended with Schengen in the first place. The idea that borders would be completely unmanned was never part of the original concept, and in fact only became the aim once the EEC (as it was) agreed to remove customs posts from the borders as of 1993.

 

[AlterEgo]

What I find strange is that the UK is so poor at processing asylum claims. It shouldn't be difficult to figure out that "oh, this bloke is Albanian" and put him immediately on a flight home. People think Schengen is the problem, but a huge part of the problem is an asylum system that isn't fit for purpose.

The asylum system is very opaque. The problem isn't the Albanians' origin it's that their sole claim to asylum is *having been trafficked*, supposedly not wilfully, and argue that being sent back risks...being trafficked...back...to England.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The asylum system is very opaque. The problem isn't the Albanians' origin it's that their sole claim to asylum is *having been trafficked*, supposedly not wilfully, and argue that being sent back risks...being trafficked...back...to England.

Which is utter tripe and should simply be called out.

 

[miklcct]

* For a bit of crossover to the cash thread, the Euro is now effectively pointless in a world of electronic payments, and the inability to control quantitative easing and interest rates would have made the 2008 crisis far worse for the UK - we would have been in a position more like Greece. If the issue is bank interchange charges, legislate to ban them - but some banks offer bank rate without fees anyway - Monzo does if on their paid account.

The use of a common currency signifies a common economy - which is what the EU is about.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Which is utter tripe and should simply be called out.

It should be. There is an argument (from an EU perspective) that it's time to revoke visa-free access to Schengen for both Albania and Serbia, too.

 

[GS250]

Hands up I was totally ignorant regarding Albania as a Nation. I've seen some photos of it though...looks a great place to live. Then again a few tourist images don't tell the full story.....

 

[Sm5]

What I find strange is that the UK is so poor at processing asylum claims. It shouldn't be difficult to figure out that "oh, this bloke is Albanian" and put him immediately on a flight home. People think Schengen is the problem, but a huge part of the problem is an asylum system that isn't fit for purpose.

100% agree.

It shouldnt be that hard to create a law that indicates people arriving from non hostile states, without prior approval arriving through non-recognised immigration channels will not have asylum claims recognised.

That then doesnt preclude anyone “jumping ship” from a hostile country in passing through the channel, which may be legitimate, but anyone setting sail from the EU is immediately excluded unless they were pre-approved to do so.
There should be no reason to “flee” France, without approval.

I still fail to see what was wrong with the Rwanda idea.

We still have a few woebegone UK overseas territories to, which could do with some investment. If they could be processed there, it would give much needed investment. There could even be a fast track immigration route for those chosing it, and one for helping to build / maintain it, as they are demonstrating commitment to the UK. if they are genuinely fleeing, any UK territory should be safe.

 

[HullRailMan]

The asylum system is very opaque. The problem isn't the Albanians' origin it's that their sole claim to asylum is *having been trafficked*, supposedly not wilfully, and argue that being sent back risks...being trafficked...back...to England.

I think this is a loophole in the May-era modern slavery legislation that is now being industrially exploited. Along with ‘human rights’ legislation, our government seem far too good at creating legislation that may be well intentioned but simply creates laws that are then used against us. The Albanian issue and our inability to deport criminals or transfer to Rwanda are all self-inflicted wounds by the UK government, any any attempt to fix them just sets off the usual voices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The use of a common currency signifies a common economy - which is what the EU is about.

A common economy is infeasible between such a disparate set of countries. It'd work between say France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, but even bringing in Italy, Portugal or Spain breaks it a bit, Greece rather more and even more eastern European countries. Not being in the Euro saved our bacon by allowing us to "print money" on several occasions.

The EU should primarily be a free trading bloc (including freedom of settlement and employment), not effectively one country. The United States of Europe idea is fundamentally unworkable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2022 ==

Hands up I was totally ignorant regarding Albania as a Nation. I've seen some photos of it though...looks a great place to live. Then again a few tourist images don't tell the full story.....

It's not a bad place, but it doesn't have great economic prospects and there has long been a bit of an organised crime issue and a very large diaspora. It is probably comparable-ish with rural Greece and the likes. Worth a holiday, certainly for a ride on its rather quirky survivor of a railway before it ends up closed.

 

[Sm5]

any any attempt to fix them just sets off the usual voices.

who funds these voices ?
I’m sure the undocumented arrivals are not.

If someone arrives illegally, they shouldn't be receiving state aid… “no recourse to public funds” … so where is the money coming from ?

 

[Ediswan]

A common economy is infeasible between such a disparate set of countries. It'd work between say France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, but even bringing in Italy, Portugal or Spain breaks it a bit,

Italy has enough trouble by itself. They have had a serious north-south economic divide for decades.

 

[Roast Veg]

I think my thoughts around this question will probably change once the EU has better entry systems for UK citizens implemented. As it stands, the current situation is awful, and Schengen looks very attractive for the CTA wholesale.