-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Should the London Underground have first class?
- Thread starter Cdd89
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Hong Kong's MTR is a model to be copied in some areas, but first class is absolutely not one of them. In my opinion it doesn't belong anywhere on short-distance services, least of all high capacity metros. Forget using it to try and encourage people who otherwise wouldn't use the Underground to use it, because ridership is most definitely not an issue with public transport in London. It's not perfect, but it's absolutely one of the best rapid transit systems in the world, and in terms of areas for improvement, first class is not on most passenger's agenda.
Just as an ‘add’ - the East Rail Line of the Hong Kong MTR used to be a seperate line and not part of the MTR system, and was run as a Heavy Rail service by the Kowloon-Canton Railway company. It traces its history back to 1910, and was built by the British. Hence the first class, which has carried forward from then.
It would be just silly on LU.
It would be just silly on LU.
Last edited:
stevieinselby
Established Member
The on-train part of the journey is probably less traumatic than walking through the stations and waiting on the platform.
You could count on the fingers of one foot the number of potential passengers travelling to/from Zone 1 who would be persuaded to use the Underground by having a first class carriage and who wouldn't be deterred by the crush and long walk through the stations and on the platform – and while for handful passengers in the outer reaches who are making local journeys and so wouldn't suffer the pain of Z1 stations, this might make a difference, they will be such a minuscule proportion of total ridership that it wouldn't even register on the second decimal place.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
So you accept first class is not viable when a line has most people travelling on it (and, by inference, highest number of people with a potential demand* for a first class offering.
So - why on earth would you offer it when a service has low (off peak) demand.and, as a result, low revenue-potential?
* Personally - after 18 years of using these services - I do not see any such demand for that. Post 11 (linked) explains why.
Should the London Underground have first class?
I'm currently in Hong Kong on the East Rail Line, which is a (mostly) metro-type service. This line has platform validators to pay a surcharge to use a first class car. I've also seen this in quite a few other Asian cities, e.g. Shenzhen. The carriages do seem to be relatively well used, the...
www.railforums.co.uk
Last edited:
Topological
Established Member
No. There is no reason to have First Class on TfL.
It is interesting to see how this compares to the situation at Heathrow and the Heathrow Express. There you do have a premium product and people want to get rid of it because they believe it takes up capacity that could be offered at TfL fares. In actuality, the HEX does not cause issues because paths between Airport Junction and Reading do not exist. HEX does function as an expensive product for people who want to avoid the crush of the Elizabeth Line. People buy HEX tickets and the system works.
On a London Underground line, the best use of capacity is regular stopping trains on uniform headways. Ultimately, those headways get as small as possible. There is no scope for a limited stop train to save time, so there is no time premium as on HEX. All you can do is reduce standard capacity. Reductions of capacity are not ideal.
Ultimately, first class for the underground is an executive taxi.
It is interesting to see how this compares to the situation at Heathrow and the Heathrow Express. There you do have a premium product and people want to get rid of it because they believe it takes up capacity that could be offered at TfL fares. In actuality, the HEX does not cause issues because paths between Airport Junction and Reading do not exist. HEX does function as an expensive product for people who want to avoid the crush of the Elizabeth Line. People buy HEX tickets and the system works.
On a London Underground line, the best use of capacity is regular stopping trains on uniform headways. Ultimately, those headways get as small as possible. There is no scope for a limited stop train to save time, so there is no time premium as on HEX. All you can do is reduce standard capacity. Reductions of capacity are not ideal.
Ultimately, first class for the underground is an executive taxi.
Chiltern 165
Member
I think it could work if you were able to do it as an impulse/spur of the moment.
With National Rail ticketing, you book ahead and nobody has the foresight to think “what if they book a 2 car and it’s really busy in 5 weeks”.
Many people take the Thames Clipper/riverbus instead of the tube, even though it the Tube or a rail route is a-lot quicker and cheaper in almost every journey.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Possibly at National Rail prices, but it could work if it was something like 15%
birchesgreen
Established Member
The only place it might vaguely work is on the Metropolitan Line from Chesham or Amersham, but i doubt many would be that bothered and it would probably cause many problems.
The only time I’ve heard of anyone taking that for that reason is strikes. Most people take it as tourists of because of the view that you get on it.
To make it worthwhile to operate, you want first class to at least match the reduction in capacity. i.e. if you have half the seats in the first class carriage, the fares are double standard class. Would only 15% less crowded be sufficiently attractive?
Sun Chariot
Established Member
No it couldn't. It's the same crush through station entrance / booking hall / escalator or lift or stairs / platform / repeat at other end, or where changing between lines. I'm speaking from 18 years of experience.
In hot weather, I often walked from my Paddington office to Westminster Pier and took a Thames Clipper (a bar on board the Hurricane Clipper - commuting red wine!).
Then, at Woolwich Arsenal Pier, walk under Thames Tunnel, or take a Woolwich ferry; then 5 minutes' walk home.
All to avoid the hateful Underground experience.
A taxi is for end-to-end convenience, it's not merely "carriage-substitute" bit.
I reiterate my post 11:
With the exception of the outer reaches of the Metropolitan Line and, arguably, the Central Line east of the Hainault loop, London's Underground proposition is of a mass-transit, high-frequency, high-capacity transport and with (generally) short travel-duration on any one particular train (although, overall, the "point to point" journey might use multiple TfL lines).
In London's travel, social habits & expectations have altered since "class divide" of 19th and early 20th century patrons.
Today, we need efficiency and productivity, not indulgence.
Last edited:
Good luck in increasing the Victoria line frequency. It's already 33 trains per hour in the peak.
Ironic that you raise this when HMG is, and has been for some time, systematically removing First class from National Rail commuter trains.
Is it desirable - yes. Is it practicable - no. The system is too crowded, so the conversion of some existing capacity to first class may well bring disproportionate discomfort to the standard passengers. Plus the likelihood that enforcement (otherwise there is no point in provision) would be disproportionately costly to the additional revenue generated.
I've not been to Hong Kong for a while, but when I was last there the first class cars each had an attendant, who checked tickets of everyone boarding immediately after they did so and sat down. It seems this has been replaced by a convoluted automated system. It was also disappointing that half the time when boarding the first class coach all seats were already taken and you had to stand anyway - a situation I recall from the old days on the Paris Metro.
The real issue with segmented accommodation of any type is the proportions vary through the operating day. Provision for children goes unused in the evening. Luggage provision on services to the airport is wasted at the opposite end of a cross-city route.
The real issue with segmented accommodation of any type is the proportions vary through the operating day. Provision for children goes unused in the evening. Luggage provision on services to the airport is wasted at the opposite end of a cross-city route.
Out of interest why do you think a first class on London Underground is desirable even if you acknowledge it as impractical? What could the extra expenditure and reduced capacity possibly offer a rapid transit system? Those who would genuinely want a premium experience getting across Central London will probably just hire a private taxi or even a chauffer if they are a first class customer.
Yes, except the private taxi or chauffeur would likely be contributing to, and stuck in, the surface traffic. The extra 'comfort' would merely be a less crowded carriage, with the main attraction being travelling with less of the riff-raff and more secure, because of the presence of the 'enforcement' attendant.
I think that anyone that fussed about the riff-raff would already be in a taxi and paying the price of being stuck in the traffic they were contributing to. And, given the practicalities of enforcement even when the Tube had guards, I suspect the benefit of enforcement would rapidly be replace by frustration at its absence.
The question I have then is whether or not London is dealing with unsustainable massive traffic problems? All things considered the city is very well set up in terms of public transit because the tube is efficient, buses are plentiful, and taxis are some of the most abundant in the world, not to mention the new prevalence of Uber and Lyft. If London needs to solve more traffic issues, then First Class on the Underground is most certainly not one of the solutions.
birchesgreen
Established Member
Should this first class underground service have an at seat service of light refreshments?
The HEX is doubly interesting because not only is the product itself a premium-Elizabeth Line, but it has an actual First Class carriage despite a journey time of only 15 minutes (in line with underground journeys).
Facts in random order:
- I use First Class through the GGL benefit
- The last 10 journeys I've taken, there's been no enforcement in the middle First Class carriage (HEX also do not operate a penalty fares scheme)
- It's always quite busy, but that may be related to the point above, which is also why I don't know how others are qualifying
- There are usually seats available in Express Class, making First Class pretty pointless
- It's recently been relaunched to throw in Fast Track security at Heathrow
bramling
Veteran Member
This part isn’t actually too difficult in principle, as the very nature of having a selective and less crowded part of the train would be appealing to some.
Realistically achieving it is another matter entirely.
Which is exactly one of the reasons why I said I consider it impractical.
It may be one of the solutions, but hardly likely to be a priority.
Ideally, but considering that the basic provision is impractical, this would just add to the impracticability.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Quite
birchesgreen
Established Member
I'd love to see it, be like a carry on film.
It's obviously not a lot in the overall context of London commuting but if you ever travel on the Clippers during the evening rush hour you'll see plenty of commuters - most of them won't be paying attention to the view, they'll be in the inside seats with a paper or looking at their phone. If I'd ever had a suitable combination of job/home locations I might have used it for commuting myself.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
First class withdrawal timeline
1940: First Class travel was officially abolished on all local and Uxbridge Metropolitan services to ease growing wartime congestion.
October 1941: First Class was permanently abolished on the remaining mainline, long-distance Metropolitan trains running out into "Metro-land" (like Buckinghamshire and Hertfordshire).
London Transport's rationale
Keeping luxury, segregated First Class carriages for a small number of wealthy commuters while standard carriages were overcrowded was seen as a waste of space.
Removing class distinctions allowed London Transport to maximize seating and standing capacity across the entire train, streamlining boarding times during air raids and staff shortages.
Sources: MyLondon, Wikipedia
Perhaps you've hit upon a potential answer. Standard class carriages could be standing-only apart from a small number of priority seats (with future trains), a bit like most airport peoplemovers – and first class carriages could conversely have more seating and minimal standing space.
Sun Chariot
Established Member
If I was paying for a first class travel, I'd at least expect my Priority Lane experience: of separate (carpeted and wider and seated) escalators; separate, a sound-proofed area of platform; in-train multimedia (and programmes will need to range in length, from 5 minutes to half an hour).