Should the HSTs be Replaced?

[CockneySparrow]

Just come across this online

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sinkplunger/5733074602/

Don't know much detail about it presume a rail tour of some description but could HSTs do the Liverpool to Norwich run in the future

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

The age should not come into any decision. Simply the cost of the next projected overhaul to bring them up to date

I'm glad you're only joking (surely), because this is absolutely barking mad! Anyone with any experience of operating older vehicles (whether trains, aircraft or anything else) will be hooting with laughter at this.

If I had to wait another hour to be able to travel on an HST instead of a Voyager I would.

Good for you - I'm sure we all envy the amount of time you have on your hands. But how about the majority of the travelling public who need to get somewhere quickly and reliably?

 

[starrymarkb]

It is quite possible that the HST has one of those rare attributes of being infinitely renewable. It may not be perfect but it is proven and apparently predictably affordable (which in financial circles is a huge plus). I personally am challenged to explain why electrification should extend west of say Paignton.

The steep gradients west of Newton Abbot for a start. Look what the Swiss use on their steep gradients, small, compact and very powerful electrics, some of which have almost twice the power of an HST set!

 

[455driver]

I personally am challenged to explain why electrification should extend west of say Paignton.

It would upset the Paignton And Dartmouth railway if they did!

 

[ainsworth74]

It would upset the Paignton And Dartmouth railway if they did!

Would it? They already have full LED colourlight signalling and it appears even track circuits! Their signalling appears more modern than those on the mainline!!

 

[Kneedown]

Just come across this online

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sinkplunger/5733074602/

Don't know much detail about it presume a rail tour of some description but could HSTs do the Liverpool to Norwich run in the future

That would be either the Mid Norfolk Marauder or Silver Lining railtour from St Pancrad to Dereham. I was one of the Drivers on both tours.
As regards regular use on Liverpool-Norwich, i see no reason why not, subject to timetable tweaks, infrastructure improvements, set shortening etc, but they not the most ideal stock.

 

[merlodlliw]

Ah well, Welsh Government are considering using them on the Cardiff/Manchesters & Holyhead/Cardiffs, after IEP.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ah well, Welsh Government are considering using them on the Cardiff/Manchesters & Holyhead/Cardiffs, after IEP.

Why they want the IC125s on Holyhead - Cardiffs rather than just on Manchesters to release 175s for more Cardiff - Holyhead I have no idea. Besides they also want electrfication of the north Wales coast line, which more Holyhead - Cardiff services won't help with.

 

[47802]

Ah well, Welsh Government are considering using them on the Cardiff/Manchesters & Holyhead/Cardiffs, after IEP.

I suspect when they realise the cost of updating them, not to mention the MTU versions needing replacement engines in the early 2020's, and the cost of operating them, I dont think that idea will ever see the light of day.

Im sure some HST's will work beyond 2020 but they will need a very strong business case.

 

[The Ham]

I suspect when they realise the cost of updating them, not to mention the MTU versions needing replacement engines in the early 2020's, and the cost of operating them, I dont think that idea will ever see the light of day.

Im sure some HST's will work beyond 2020 but they will need a very strong business case.

Would not when the enginees need replacing come down to how many miles they have travelled and/or how hard they've worked rather than just on their age (which would be 20 years old in 2025, so should have a few more years in them than that). For instance if some of the latest to be replaced enginees left mainline service first as IEP came along then these could potentially last for a few more years, esp. if they were being used less intesively.

Having said that, it could well be enough to tied them over until they can start using Voyagers as there could be lots of them with not much to do early in the 2020's.

 

[47802]

Would not when the enginees need replacing come down to how many miles they have travelled and/or how hard they've worked rather than just on their age (which would be 20 years old in 2025, so should have a few more years in them than that). For instance if some of the latest to be replaced enginees left mainline service first as IEP came along then these could potentially last for a few more years, esp. if they were being used less intesively.

Having said that, it could well be enough to tied them over until they can start using Voyagers as there could be lots of them with not much to do early in the 2020's.

Well my understanding of MTU is that the engine block is only good for 2 overalls and on current usage that is equiv to about a 15 year service life obviously that doesnt apply to VP185 versions.

Will there be lots of spare voyagers in thed mid 2020's i think thats debatable, clearly if cp5 is completed some voyagers could be replaced by a dual voltage emu, however when it comes to cp6 filling in the cross country gaps my not be the highest priority.

 

[AndyLandy]

Will there be lots of spare voyagers in thed mid 2020's i think thats debatable, clearly if cp5 is completed some voyagers could be replaced by a dual voltage emu, however when it comes to cp6 filling in the cross country gaps my not be the highest priority.

I don't expect any XC Voyagers to be freed up any time soon, but MML electrification should free up the Meridians, and if someone can figure out how to electrify to Chester, we could possibly see some Virgin 221s freed up.

 

[The Ham]

Well my understanding of MTU is that the engine block is only good for 2 overalls and on current usage that is equiv to about a 15 year service life obviously that doesnt apply to VP185 versions.

But that is my whole point, once IEP comes along theycould well see a lot less usage than they curretnly do, meaning that they last a bit longer.

Will there be lots of spare voyagers in the mid 2020's i think thats debatable, clearly if cp5 is completed some voyagers could be replaced by a dual voltage emu, however when it comes to cp6 filling in the cross country gaps my not be the highest priority.

It doesn't matter too much if there are only a few gaps wired up in the XC network, as once the ICWC franchise is let there will be 20 x 221's freed up, add to that a further 8-12 for the CP5 routes which could be run as EMU's. Which is before any additional sets are freed up by any further electrification.

 

[47802]

But that is my whole point, once IEP comes along theycould well see a lot less usage than they curretnly do, meaning that they last a bit longer.



It doesn't matter too much if there are only a few gaps wired up in the XC network, as once the ICWC franchise is let there will be 20 x 221's freed up, add to that a further 8-12 for the CP5 routes which could be run as EMU's. Which is before any additional sets are freed up by any further electrification.

Unless you get derrogation from the disibility reg I doubt the upgrade work would be viable for only a few years, you are problably looking at wanting to keep them another 10 years to justify the work, and unless you can get hold of the VP185's , then your going to need new engines as well.

I dont think its a given that some or all will leave the the west coast franshise, 8to 12 freed up by electrification could end up being used to replace XC HST's and even if 20 WC voyagers are freed up they could well be used to increase capacity on remaing voyager services and cascade onto some 170 XC services.

Obviously at the moment its unclear whats happening to the 222's, although as much as many people dont like that option I think they may end up on West Country services.

 

[atolepnauj]

I will certainly miss HST 's legroom. Being 6'3" my knees are literally round my ears in Voyagers.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Well my understanding of MTU is that the engine block is only good for 2 overalls and on current usage that is equiv to about a 15 year service life obviously that doesnt apply to VP185 versions.

Will there be lots of spare voyagers in thed mid 2020's i think thats debatable, clearly if cp5 is completed some voyagers could be replaced by a dual voltage emu, however when it comes to cp6 filling in the cross country gaps my not be the highest priority.

I'm surprised the block would only be good for 2 overhauls. The 4000 series engine has wet liners which form the bores. These can be replaced complete with pistons meaning a rebore should never be required, so unless you put a rod through the block casting should be good indefinitely.

 

[AndyLandy]

even if 20 WC voyagers are freed up

Now that would be an impressive feat, given there are only 15 in the fleet!

 

[HSTEd]

As ETCS rollout continues, 125mph rolling stock will probably become less widespread as things like the "Desiro Express" with its 118mph top speed (since speeds will now be in kph they will be able to run at the full 189/190) remove the time advantages as well as having operational advantages like being able to have gangways.

(Also HS2 will kill off most of the long distance expresses, leaving them as stubs that would probably nto notice 2 minutes on the running time, or less, from running at 118 instead of 125)

 

[D365]

Now that would be an impressive feat, given there are only 15 in the fleet!

Pretty sure the VWC fleet does total 20 - excluding the shortened 221144.

As ETCS rollout continues, 125mph rolling stock will probably become less widespread as things like the "Desiro Express" with its 118mph top speed (since speeds will now be in kph they will be able to run at the full 189/190) remove the time advantages as well as having operational advantages like being able to have gangways.

(Also HS2 will kill off most of the long distance expresses, leaving them as stubs that would probably nto notice 2 minutes on the running time, or less, from running at 118 instead of 125)

Does sound like an interesting compromise. With the gangways allowing full on-board operation when in multiple and units splitting at the country ends to serve various destinations. A HS2-period follow-on from IEP?

 

[anthony263]

Ah well, Welsh Government are considering using them on the Cardiff/Manchesters & Holyhead/Cardiffs, after IEP.

I can understand the WG suggesting this for the Cardiff - Holyhead service seeing as these are subsidised by the WG but I cannot understand why the suggestion has come up for the Cardiff - Manchester service seeing as there should be enougfh class 175's for that route if the hst's are deployed on the Cardiff - Holyhead services.

 

[47802]

I'm surprised the block would only be good for 2 overhauls. The 4000 series engine has wet liners which form the bores. These can be replaced complete with pistons meaning a rebore should never be required, so unless you put a rod through the block casting should be good indefinitely.

Well I woulnt swear to it being correct either but I have heard that comment about MTU on a number of forums, looking at some of MTU's own info on the web today it suggests a lifecycle of 20 to 30 years, but it doesnt really indicate what level of usage that is based on and whether there is an overhaul limit.

 

[AndyLandy]

Pretty sure the VWC fleet does total 20 - excluding the shortened 221144.

It would appear you're quite right. I wonder where I got 15 from...

 

[starrymarkb]

Could it be that the Engines are on a short lease contract? before being returned to MTU for a rebuild and onward sale. Given the refurb specification was intended to take the trains through to 2014 (as at the time the refurb/re-engine programme was specified, IEP was *supposed* to be in squadron service from 2012/2013), it would make sense to have the engines on a lease contract rather then scrapping them with the Power Cars

 

[D365]

Could it be that the Engines are on a short lease contract? before being returned to MTU for a rebuild and onward sale. Given the refurb specification was intended to take the trains through to 2014 (as at the time the refurb/re-engine programme was specified, IEP (or the then-equivalent) was *supposed* to be in squadron service from 2012/2013), it would make sense to have the engines on a lease contract rather then scrapping them with the Power Cars

Does that mean that 43s preserved in working condition will all have to return to the original specification? (as with 41001/Project Miller which is being adapted to standardise with the squadron build for commonality)

Unless some sort of deal is brokered, but I can't see anyone who'd favour a re-engined 43 in preservation.

And there's still those people who are saying the IEP diesel units are a waste of resources, will be scrapped when routes are electrified etc...

 

[starrymarkb]

Does that mean that 43s preserved in working condition will all have to return to the original specification? (as with 41001/Project Miller which is being adapted to standardise with the squadron build for commonality)

Unless some sort of deal is brokered, but I can't see anyone who'd favour a re-engined 43 in preservation.

And there's still those people who are saying the IEP diesel units are a waste of resources, will be scrapped when routes are electrified etc...

if that were the case I suspect MTU would be happy sell/donate at least one engine for preservation if asked. I'm pretty sure they/Voith were overhauling parts for preserved Westerns. Though I can see the Rivet Counters/OMG@DaVALENTAAAAAH!!!!1two!! crowd preferring that didn't happen!

 

[tbtc]

I can understand the WG suggesting this for the Cardiff - Holyhead service seeing as these are subsidised by the WG but I cannot understand why the suggestion has come up for the Cardiff - Manchester service seeing as there should be enougfh class 175's for that route if the hst's are deployed on the Cardiff - Holyhead services.

Surely the Manchester route is the busier of the two, and could therefore justify longer trains (than the Holyhead route)?

(I can't see HSTs at W&B - they'll need a lot of money spending on them, considering that the best HSTs are going to be retained for Cornish services, so anything "spare" for W&B is going to be pretty knackered by the time FGW don't need it)

 

[AndyLandy]

What are linespeeds like between Cardiff and Holyhead? Using HSTs on services like that seems like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me.

 

[tbtc]

What are linespeeds like between Cardiff and Holyhead? Using HSTs on services like that seems like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut to me.

There's presumably some reasonable speeds from Cardiff to Newport and west of Chester, but I think that the current Holyhead services are timed to allow a 75mph DMU to work it if required - could be wrong.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's presumably some reasonable speeds from Cardiff to Newport and west of Chester, but I think that the current Holyhead services are timed to allow a 75mph DMU to work it if required - could be wrong.

I think a fair amount of the ATW routes from Cardiff to Holyhead and Manchester has linespeeds greater than 75mph (80-90 probably, perhaps with a bit of 100mph between Newport-Cardiff and Crewe-Manchester) but I don't have any firm knowlage. My assumption is just the impression I have from the speeds we appear to be traveling at when looking out the window and the few linespeed signs I've noticed.

Cardiff/Swansea - Manchester could use longer trains. 3-car 175 should be the minimum with some services needing 4x mark3s like Gerald (or maybe even 5 mark3s, depending on whether one of them is a buffet 1st).

 

[al.currie93]

These are all good points

I love the HSTs, and they are definitely a British icon. But I do (grudgingly) feel that their replacement is justified, not because of age, not because of their ability to perform their role (I find them amazing at what they do :P and I haven't found many people who disagree with me), but because of their resource (not just money, but fuel, replacement components and so on) cost to operate, which is becoming very expensive, and also because of the electrification of much of their routes which makes them less preferable in almost every operational and environmental factor.

I'll miss them a lot when they do go out of mainstream service , but I feel it is time for them to be replaced, and they have done very well to get 40 years of frontline service :P .

However, what I feel would be great is if one or two were kept in service, running a dedicated, low demand service (such as a Paddington to Bristol service and the corresponding return on a Sunday afternoon) that changed every two months or so. This would mean that a few select trains would stay in service, running services which were still part of the national railway service, be fairly easy and cheap to operate as they wouldn't be put under too much strain, while bringing some 'heritage' to those services: in a way, similar to what Chiltern have done with their 121s, or what Virgin unintentionally did with the Pretendolino :P . The new stock would take over, but one or two HSTs would be kept and maintained to a good standard to 'keep the flag waving' for as long as they could be maintained Pretty sure I've posted that somewhere before, but it's just a little thing I wish would happen :P