Should speed through mainline stations be slower?

[stuu]

The underground does slow down to 5mph to pass non-stop through stations.

That's because of the overlaps on the signalling. One of either the Victoria or Jubilee line don't do it any more after resignalling, and trains go through closed platforms much faster

 

[Ianno87]

Does the pendolinos go through platforms at Milton keynes that are in regular service. If not the platform should be fenced

Platforms are far too narrow (the sections with buildings on) for that to be practical.

 

[Kite159]

Is there a list of stations that operate the rule of restricting access until shortly before a stop? Is that a majority of stations that permit >100mph running?

Romford for platform 3 (down main). Access is controlled via a gate which is opened a couple minutes before the train is due to arrive.

 

[notadriver]

It's like the road safety advert around 15 years ago isn't it, with the child's voice:

"If you hit me at 40 mph there's an 80% chance I'll die, if you hit me at 30 there's an 80% chance I'll live"

Between 100 mph and 125 mph, a fairly insignificant difference in chance (zero) of survival I would think. The train is unable to scrub off meaningful speed upon sighting someone right at the platform edge anyway (unlike braking a car) and the ability of someone to get out of the way at 125 compared to 100 little different. If they're not paying attention, they're not paying attention.

It’s interesting how road safety speed adverts have no bearing on the railway whatsoever ‘speed kills, kill your speed’ for example.

 

[skyhigh]

Quite a number of suicides over the years, sadly. (And, yes, the higher speed is a factor in the choice of location)

That's a bit different to an accidental injury though (and I'm not sure 100mph vs 125mph would make a real difference to people choosing the location)

 

[Ianno87]

It’s interesting how road safety speed adverts have no bearing on the railway whatsoever ‘speed kills, kill your speed’ for example.

Because railways are designed to be as fast as they are.

Roads are designed for one speed, but people drive in excess of that.

 

[miami]

Does the pendolinos go through platforms at Milton keynes that are in regular service. If not the platform should be fenced

MKC has trains calling at Platforms 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 in the next 20 minutes. I don't think there's a zero or seven.

 

[zwk500]

MKC has trains calling at Platforms 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 in the next 20 minutes. I don't think there's a zero or seven.

There's no platform 0, the only platform that isn't regularly used is 2A, which is a 5-car south-facing bay.

 

[bramling]

I have noticed in recent years that Pendolinos do not slow down when passing through Milton Keynes Station, along with other busy mainline stations like Rugby and I'm guessing similar on other mainline routes.
Using Milton Keynes platform 4 as an example, the platform is quite narrow in places and it can feel quite foreboding when an Avanti train whizzes through. An announcement is made beforehand to warn passengers to stand back (not much behind the yellow line though!) but nonetheless would it be a good idea if Pendolinos slowed down to say 100mph when passing through Milton Keynes especially to make it a bit safer, without compromising the timetable too much? I'm sure they always used to do it anyway.

I’d say no. Places like Stevenage have seen trains pass at 125 mph for many years, and it isn’t really an issue. It isn’t worth the time and capacity penalty.

 

[Falcon1200]

Quite a number of suicides over the years, sadly. (And, yes, the higher speed is a factor in the choice of location)

Not always; One of the saddest incidents I was involved in was a young girl who decided to take her own life at her local station; The train actually stopped there so speed made no difference to her decision, or the tragic outcome.

 

[bramling]

That's because of the overlaps on the signalling. One of either the Victoria or Jubilee line don't do it any more after resignalling, and trains go through closed platforms much faster

All of the ATO lines now pass through faster, either 18 or 20 mph.

An empty ATO train generally stops at the platforms though, as there’s an issue that if the driver became incapacitated then the train would travel on and on with no one realising. If the train is being driven manually then it can be set to non-stop, if the signaller is sufficiently inclined to do the necessary mouse clicks!

A manually driven train on the Central Line physically can pass platforms at full speed, but there’s a rule book instruction not to. I remember one weekend quite a few years ago when there was engineering work and trains were running non-stop Hainault to Woodford (this section used to close at 2000, but Hainault was still being served with the intermediate stations closed), some drivers were taking the opportunity to run through Chigwell at the full 100kph. Nowadays there’s also a rule book instruction not to exceed 85kph as well. I think even then it was supposed to be 32kph through platforms, though with Central Line ATP there was no safety implication in going faster.

Certain LU platforms have always had faster speeds authorised, for example the Met Line local lines north of Harrow.

 

[matt_world2004]

All of the ATO lines now pass through faster, either 18 or 20 mph.

An empty ATO train generally stops at the platforms though, as there’s an issue that if the driver became incapacitated then the train would travel on and on with no one realising. If the train is being driven manually then it can be set to non-stop, if the signaller is sufficiently inclined to do the necessary mouse clicks!

A manually driven train on the Central Line physically can pass platforms at full speed, but there’s a rule book instruction not to. I remember one weekend quite a few years ago when there was engineering work and trains were running non-stop Hainault to Woodford (this section used to close at 2000, but Hainault was still being served with the intermediate stations closed), some drivers were taking the opportunity to run through Chigwell at the full 100kph. Nowadays there’s also a rule book instruction not to exceed 85kph as well. I think even then it was supposed to be 32kph through platforms, though with Central Line ATP there was no safety implication in going faster.

Certain LU platforms have always had faster speeds authorised, for example the Met Line local lines north of Harrow.

I would have thought ATO would have still required the driver to operate some vigilance device even in automatic operation

 

[bramling]

I would have thought ATO would have still required the driver to operate some vigilance device even in automatic operation

The vigilance is pressing the ATO start buttons at each platform. The idea being that the train will always reach a platform, where if it sits down someone will soon notice.

There are a few other features built into the modern systems - for example on TBTC the signaller gets an alarm “Interstation stop detected” in certain circumstances. So no more sneaky fruit-picking on rural sections!

There may also be something like “train XXX not departed Y station for 2 mins”, if my memory serves correctly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, that would massively impact the timetable

If Milton Keynes passengers can't be trusted to stand behind the yellow line, perhaps they should be kept off the platform entirely.

To permit through running above 160km/h for the Hamburg-Berlin upgrade (which is similar to the WCRM* in many ways) DB installed fences about 1-1.5m back from the platform edge, the idea being you stay behind those until the train stops. Perhaps MKC and similar stations could do with those. Though I don't recall hearing of an accident there (other than suicides which if they weren't there would be elsewhere).

* West Coast Route Modernisation

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Jul 2021 ==

Does the pendolinos go through platforms at Milton keynes that are in regular service. If not the platform should be fenced

You can't realistically fence it in the traditional way because trains also stop there. WCML stations where services don't routinely stop on the fasts have already been fenced.

You couldn't hold people away from the platforms entirely because the trains that stop run only just behind the ones that don't, so it would cause delay.

A fix will be along in 10 years or so anyway - when HS2 opens, near enough everything will stop there, because most if not all trains that don't will be on HS2 instead.

 

[miami]

A fix will be along in 10 years or so anyway - when HS2 opens, near enough everything will stop there.

Not freight though - what's the limiit for freight on the relief lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not freight though - what's the limiit for freight on the relief lines?

Nowhere near 125! I don't think it slows down, if that's what you mean, but there's a world of difference between a train going through at 125 and one at say 75.

 

[zwk500]

Not freight though - what's the limiit for freight on the relief lines?

The only Relief Lines near MK are between Denbigh Hall South Jn and Bletchley (Relief 1 is 40mph, Relief 2 is 30mph)! The Up slow is 85mph, the Reversible slow is 40mph both ways, and the Down Slow is 100mph in the right direction, 75mph wrong-road.

 

[Ianno87]

Nowhere near 125! I don't think it slows down, if that's what you mean, but there's a world of difference between a train going through at 125 and one at say 75.

Though freights do generate considerably more turbulent air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though freights do generate considerably more turbulent air.

Than a unit at a similar speed, yes, but having stood on the platforms at MKC for both a 125mph Pendolino and a freight passing, the former produces a much greater rush of air and is far more "scary" feeling.

 

[CW2]

Passenger services passing at 125 mph generate turbulence from the front of the train, whereas with a 75 mph intermodal train - particularly one that has many intermediate gaps - the turbulence comes after several vehicles have passed. The measured air turbulence from the freight is often higher, but you get some warning of the train's approach, whereas with a passenger train the higher speed creates an element of surprise = shock.

 

[Irascible]

whereas with a passenger train the higher speed creates an element of surprise = shock.

Also a literal shock ( somewhat ) - or at least a pressure wave & then a reasonably smooth rush of air, vs the many chaotic vortices from something irregular like a container train.

 

[CW2]

To answer the OP, the increase in speed through passenger platform from 100 / 110 mph to 125 mph was thoroughly risk assessed by the West Coast Route Modernisation project. The mitigation of painting yellow lines and making announcements prior to a train passing through was deemed sufficient and proportionate. There is a huge financial value attached to 1 minute additional journey time for 1 train, so in fifnancial terms you would soon rack up extended journey times worth well into the tens of millions of pounds by slowing everything down to 100 mph through station platforms.

 

[Aictos]

One point with reducing speeds of non stop services though any station including one as busy as Milton Keynes is the fact that the average long distance passenger now has their journey time extended because someone can't use common sense when the existing status quo has worked fine for decades.

 

[Senex]

To permit through running above 160km/h for the Hamburg-Berlin upgrade (which is similar to the WCRM* in many ways) DB installed fences about 1-1.5m back from the platform edge, the idea being you stay behind those until the train stops. Perhaps MKC and similar stations could do with those. Though I don't recall hearing of an accident there (other than suicides which if they weren't there would be elsewhere).

See the image I posted at #26. I'm not aware of any platform-edge accidents there either. Quite a number of the railway people involved thought it was an overkill solution at the time, but it was the simplest they could get done quickly that would keep the H&S people happy. It's not too ugly, and it doesn't need people to be let through gates to get to any stopping train.

 

[Philip]

To answer the OP, the increase in speed through passenger platform from 100 / 110 mph to 125 mph was thoroughly risk assessed by the West Coast Route Modernisation project. The mitigation of painting yellow lines and making announcements prior to a train passing through was deemed sufficient and proportionate. There is a huge financial value attached to 1 minute additional journey time for 1 train, so in fifnancial terms you would soon rack up extended journey times worth well into the tens of millions of pounds by slowing everything down to 100 mph through station platforms.

They could go a bit further to knock a further minute off journey times by modifying the door opening and closing set up; it is ridiculously slow and I have noticed that Pendolinos tend to be stood at platforms 30 seconds or so longer than necessary because of the slow doors.

 

[CW2]

They could go a bit further to knock a further minute off journey times by modifying the door opening and closing set up; it is ridiculously slow and I have noticed that Pendolinos tend to be stood at platforms 30 seconds or so longer than necessary because of the slow doors.

That's possibly for another thread. Having a bit of time in reserve at stations isn't a bad idea, and assists punctuality.

 

[zwk500]

They could go a bit further to knock a further minute off journey times by modifying the door opening and closing set up; it is ridiculously slow and I have noticed that Pendolinos tend to be stood at platforms 30 seconds or so longer than necessary because of the slow doors.

The doors on Pendos don't open until the step is extended, and the step is necessary because of the height of the door above the platform, which is necessary for the tilting mechanism to be accomodated under the floor. The only way to speed this up would be to fit faster motors, but that's not going to gain you back 60 seconds, because of the need to prove the step is in the correct position before opening the doors. It's a significant drop down.

 

[Ianno87]

The doors on Pendos don't open until the step is extended, and the step is necessary because of the height of the door above the platform, which is necessary for the tilting mechanism to be accomodated under the floor. The only way to speed this up would be to fit faster motors, but that's not going to gain you back 60 seconds, because of the need to prove the step is in the correct position before opening the doors. It's a significant drop down.

The only minor improvement would be to have the steps deploy automatically once door release is given (currently they only deploy when the passenger presses the open button)

 

[zwk500]

The only minor improvement would be to have the steps deploy automatically once door release is given (currently they only deploy when the passenger presses the open button)

Does door release happen significantly earlier than the door open button is activated? I've never really noticed anybody waiting for more than about 1 second once the button lights up.

 

[Ianno87]

Does door release happen significantly earlier than the door open button is activated? I've never really noticed anybody waiting for more than about 1 second once the button lights up.

It would at least help the stragglers who don't realise you need to press a button to get the last couple of doors opened promptly.