Should some HS2 trains be 250m long?

[Halish Railway]

With the scaled back nature of HS2, there will be less of a need for portion working requiring two 200m units to make the most out of the 400m maximum length, thus more services running as single units, with fixed 400m long trains only likely to be used on services from London Euston to Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly once HS2 reaches Manchester.

This would most likely leave the vast majority of services being worked with 200m long trains, representing a decrease in capacity from an 11 carriage Pendolino. With this in mind, should some HS2 trains be 250m/10 coaches long to make the most out of platform lengths on the classic routes that HS2 services will use?

I'd suggest that 250m long trains be used on the initial London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly services as part of the Phase 1 and Phase 2A service pattern, being displaced by fixed 400m long units once Phase 2B is complete and moved onto other services not involving portion working that make use of classic infrastructure.

 

[RobShipway]

With the scaled back nature of HS2, there will be less of a need for portion working requiring two 200m units to make the most out of the 400m maximum length, thus more services running as single units, with fixed 400m long trains only likely to be used on services from London Euston to Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly once HS2 reaches Manchester.

This would most likely leave the vast majority of services being worked with 200m long trains, representing a decrease in capacity from an 11 carriage Pendolino. With this in mind, should some HS2 trains be 250m/10 coaches long to make the most out of platform lengths on the classic routes that HS2 services will use?

I'd suggest that 250m long trains be used on the initial London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly services as part of the Phase 1 and Phase 2A service pattern, being displaced by fixed 400m long units once Phase 2B is complete and moved onto other services not involving portion working that make use of classic infrastructure.

I suspect that the first trains built for HS2 will be no different than a class 807 in length, i.e. 7 coach train. These trains will be the trains that can work both on HS2 and classic infrastructure.

Since HS will initially be Old Oak Common to Curzon Street, I cannot see any trains dedicated to HS2 only being built until all phases of HS2 have been completed, probably some time in the 2050's.

If anything the trains will be OOC to London Manchester Piccadilly initially, since building to Euston is being delayed/postponed for a time in the future.

So rather than the 250M trains that you state, you are probably looking at 182M trains with each carriage in the train being 26M, otherwise if it is any longer I do not believe that you would get it able to be used on the classic infrastructure.

 

[The Planner]

I didnt think there were any fixed 400m units, just 200m in multiple? You likely have to redesign Washwood Heath if you altered the train lengths.

 

[zwk500]

I didnt think there were any fixed 400m units, just 200m in multiple? You likely have to redesign Washwood Heath if you altered the train lengths.

This is my understanding as well - identical to French and German practice.

Unless the additional carriages were able to be reformed into the later units for 2x200m operation, I don't really see the benefit of blocking out 40% of the potential capacity at the start.

 

[Trainbike46]

With the scaled back nature of HS2, there will be less of a need for portion working requiring two 200m units to make the most out of the 400m maximum length, thus more services running as single units, with fixed 400m long trains only likely to be used on services from London Euston to Birmingham Curzon Street and Manchester Piccadilly once HS2 reaches Manchester.

This would most likely leave the vast majority of services being worked with 200m long trains, representing a decrease in capacity from an 11 carriage Pendolino. With this in mind, should some HS2 trains be 250m/10 coaches long to make the most out of platform lengths on the classic routes that HS2 services will use?

I'd suggest that 250m long trains be used on the initial London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly services as part of the Phase 1 and Phase 2A service pattern, being displaced by fixed 400m long units once Phase 2B is complete and moved onto other services not involving portion working that make use of classic infrastructure.

I'm with others here, doing lengths other than 200m (with 2x200m where possible & desirable) is a bad idea, because you prevent running in multiple. Remember trains last about 40 years, so if you buy 250m units you are stuck with them for a very long time, and the madness of the current government will long be forgotten by then.

in addition, an 11 car pendolino is 589 seats (9 car 469 seats, source wikipedia), so you would only lose 39 seats for a 200m HS2 train (1100 seats on a 400m train, so 550 for a 200m), and gain way more once 400m operation starts (or when replacing a 9 car)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect that the first trains built for HS2 will be no different than a class 807 in length, i.e. 7 coach train. These trains will be the trains that can work both on HS2 and classic infrastructure.

The specification is for an 8-car train exactly 200m long, i.e. 25m vehicles. It's remarkably detailed - a Giruno wouldn't comply for instance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

I'm with others here, doing lengths other than 200m (with 2x200m where possible & desirable) is a bad idea, because you prevent running in multiple. Remember trains last about 40 years, so if you buy 250m units you are stuck with them for a very long time, and the madness of the current government will long be forgotten by then.

If it's going to be a single homogeneous order, it's possible you could order 250m units (10 car) with two of the vehicles as "dead" trailers able to be moved into later 200m builds. This might make sense - reducing capacity at the outset is not a great idea.

 

[Nottingham59]

They could of course order 250m units in groups of 4 at a time, with the intention of re-forming them at a later date into 3x200m and 1x400m units, by swapping centre cars around. But as the planner says that may not be feasible with the current depot strategy.

The biggest missed opportunity was at the original design stage. They should have specified 500m trains with 520m platforms for HS2 stations. This would have given HS2 an additional 25% capacity at very little extra cost, while still serving all those existing stations that can handle 11-car Pendolinos (265m)

As it is, all the biggest stations on the classic network are now condemned forever to run their flagship London services with 20% less capacity than they could have had.

 

[The Planner]

They could of course order 250m units in groups of 4 at a time, with the intention of re-forming them at a later date into 3x200m and 1x400m units, by swapping centre cars around. But as the planner says that may not be feasible with the current depot strategy.

The biggest missed opportunity was at the original design stage. They should have specified 500m trains with 520m platforms for HS2 stations. This would have given HS2 an additional 25% capacity at very little extra cost, while still serving all those existing stations that can handle 11-car Pendolinos (265m)

As it is, all the biggest stations on the classic network are now condemned forever to run their flagship London services with 20% less capacity than they could have had.

That would have driven the captive and classic compatible sets though. No way are you stopping double sets on the conventional network which the Scots services were.

 

[Nottingham59]

That would have driven the captive and classic compatible sets though. No way are you stopping double sets on the conventional network which the Scots services were.

Sorry, but I don't understand your post. Is there a word missing perhaps?

Under the original plans, HS2 classic-compatible trains were due to serve places like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Wigan, Warrington, Darlington with 200m units, by splitting 400m consists at Crewe, Carlisle and Toton. AIUI, all of those places can take 250m trains, without any additional infrastructure. If HS2 had standardised on 500m trains (both captive and classic), then all of those provincial cities could have had longer 250m trains to London and to Birmingham.

 

[BayPaul]

Personally I'd go for some 125m 5 car trains. That would allow 250m or 375m combos, to fill classic and HS2 platforms. This would also allow things like 2 units to Edinburgh, 1 unit to Glasgow.

 

[The Planner]

Sorry, but I don't understand your post. Is there a word missing perhaps?

Under the original plans, HS2 classic-compatible trains were due to serve places like Edinburgh, Glasgow, Liverpool, Newcastle, York, Sheffield, Wigan, Warrington, Darlington with 200m units, by splitting 400m consists at Crewe, Carlisle and Toton. AIUI, all of those places can take 250m trains, without any additional infrastructure. If HS2 had standardised on 500m trains (both captive and classic), then all of those provincial cities could have had longer 250m trains to London and to Birmingham.

Only if the 500m double sets didnt stop at provincial stations.

 

[zwk500]

Personally I'd go for some 125m 5 car trains. That would allow 250m or 375m combos, to fill classic and HS2 platforms. This would also allow things like 2 units to Edinburgh, 1 unit to Glasgow.

375m won't fit in very many platforms.

 

[BayPaul]

375m won't fit in very many platforms.

375m for the 400m HS2 platforms, 250m for the large classic platforms. 125m for less popular services.

 

[Nottingham59]

Only if the 500m double sets didnt stop at provincial stations.

Nor do the 400m double sets. These will only stop at the HS2 stations and (I believe) Carlisle, Preston, and Crewe. The latter three could have been extended.

Personally I'd go for some 125m 5 car trains. That would allow 250m or 375m combos, to fill classic and HS2 platforms. This would also allow things like 2 units to Edinburgh, 1 unit to Glasgow.

That's brilliant. I'd never contemplated splitting the 400m into other than two equal portions. Splitting into three 130m (or 130m & 260m) could optimize platform utilization on the classic network.

The proposed Macclesfield and Liverpool services could be 260m from Euston, rather than 200m now.

 

[The Planner]

Nor do the 400m double sets. These will only stop at the HS2 stations and (I believe) Carlisle, Preston, and Crewe. The latter three could have been extended.


That's brilliant. I'd never contemplated splitting the 400m into other than two equal portions. Splitting into three 130m (or 130m & 260m) could optimize platform utilization on the classic network.

The proposed Macclesfield and Liverpool services could be 260m from Euston, rather than 200m now.

Would love to see how that could have been done.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I didnt think there were any fixed 400m units, just 200m in multiple? You likely have to redesign Washwood Heath if you altered the train lengths.

At first many I believe were supposed to be fixed at 400m, these were also previously to be compatible with the European loading gauge and be slight bigger. Until they realized the stupidity in having only half the fleet able to run upon the existing rail network. Now all are to be 200m long.

I'm with others here, doing lengths other than 200m (with 2x200m where possible & desirable) is a bad idea, because you prevent running in multiple.

Why do you want to run in multiple ? Splitting and joining services is a nightmare anyway, having two sets require two guards at least!

Generally speaking now...

400m long is silly anyway, as to run services that length into places like Leeds you would either need to wait until billions have been spent on a new station or the existing station rebuilt!

I would go with length which would fit on platforms at most major stations, many stations are capable of doing more than just 200m!

Another thing probably more relevant to the future of on train catering thread that got me thinking about it, presumably HS2 trains will have a buffet style car in each. If both aren't staffed they all you be doing is carrying around dead weight!

 

[Trainbike46]

At first many I believe were supposed to be fixed at 400m, these were also previously to be compatible with the European loading gauge and be slight bigger. Until they realized the stupidity in having only half the fleet able to run upon the existing rail network. Now all are to be 200m long.



Why do you want to run in multiple ? Splitting and joining services is a nightmare anyway, having two sets require two guards at least!

Generally speaking now...

400m long is silly anyway, as to run services that length into places like Leeds you would either need to wait until billions have been spent on a new station or the existing station rebuilt!

I would go with length which would fit on platforms at most major stations, many stations are capable of doing more than just 200m!

Another thing probably more relevant to the future of on train catering thread that got me thinking about it, presumably HS2 trains will have a buffet style car in each. If both aren't staffed they all you be doing is carrying around dead weight!

I think you're missing the point a bit:

- Services that stay entirely within HS2 will be 2x200m or 400m
- Services that go to stations outside hs2 will be 200m
- To optimise paths you can combine/split in service, but even if you don't having 200m trains makes more sense as that will allow units to be used on both types of services above

 

[zwk500]

At first many I believe were supposed to be fixed at 400m, these were also previously to be compatible with the European loading gauge and be slight bigger. Until they realized the stupidity in having only half the fleet able to run upon the existing rail network. Now all are to be 200m long.

Don't believe Captive sets were ever proposed as fixed 400m, only that they would run always coupled for 2x200m.

400m long is silly anyway, as to run services that length into places like Leeds you would either need to wait until billions have been spent on a new station or the existing station rebuilt!

400m is a normal length for HS trains in europe

I would go with length which would fit on platforms at most major stations, many stations are capable of doing more than just 200m!

But a surprising number of intercity stations are not 250m long.

Another thing probably more relevant to the future of on train catering thread that got me thinking about it, presumably HS2 trains will have a buffet style car in each. If both aren't staffed they all you be doing is carrying around dead weight!

Even if you were to have a 400m long fixed formation you would want two buffets. Eurostar do.

 

[Nottingham59]

But a surprising number of intercity stations are not 250m long.

Which ones? A ten-car 80X is 260m. And I would have thought that any WCML stations that take 11-car Pendolinos would be 265m or more. Maybe I've been misled by the MML, where the main stations originally had platforms around 300m.

EDIT: And Intercity 225s on the ECML were, I believe, 9 car so 2x19.5m + 9x23m = 246m long. I'd say that 250m+ is more or less the national minimum standard for major station platforms.

 

[Halifaxlad]

where the main stations originally had platforms around 300m

Many stations are near this mark, or just short.

York, Darlington, Newcastle all have platforms much longer than 200m but much shorter than 400m.

Perhaps all services would be better off at 300m ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But a surprising number of intercity stations are not 250m long.

All electrified stations that Avanti West Coast serve can take a 265m 11 car Pendolino. Most without SDO, but the odd one with the back two locked out.

 

[Nottingham59]

the odd one with the back two locked out.

which would those be, out of interest? Thanks

 

[Some guy]

which would those be, out of interest? Thanks

Lichfield and Haymarket

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Are 500m sets really at all viable? Walking say 400m to a reserved seat seems excessive, especially when considered PRM (the people not the requirement). Even myself, as someone with hypermobility, would struggle with a train that length and if I was booked a seat automatically at the opposite end to the entrance would be rather peeved off. I don't know for sure how others who can't walk long distances would feel if expected to walk that far, but myself, I wouldn't be happy

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think we need a poll!

200m
300m
400m
500m

 

[Nottingham59]

Are 500m sets really at all viable?

You could ask the same question about 400m sets. And it's hypothetical now, as HS2 have chosen to standardise on 400m.

At the main stations, I could envisage a moving walkway like you get at airports, if necessary. At the level of the over-bridges, rather than at platform level. Elsewhere, the trains will have split into 250m units before serving most stations on the classic network.

 

[zwk500]

You could ask the same question about 400m sets. And it's hypothetical now, as HS2 have chosen to standardise on 400m.

At the main stations, I could envisage a moving walkway like you get at airports, if necessary. At the level of the over-bridges, rather than at platform level. Elsewhere, the trains will have split into 250m units before serving most stations on the classic network.

2x200m is very common practice on the Continent.

 

[JamesT]

I understand the Euston HS2 station is designed with 450m platforms. So either you would need an enormous redesign to accommodate 250+250 if that’s even possible (fitting the points in between platform end and the tunnels), or you’d give up on being able to run the shorter trains in multiple.

 

[Nottingham59]

I understand the Euston HS2 station is designed with 450m platforms. So either you would need an enormous redesign to accommodate 250+250 if that’s even possible (fitting the points in between platform end and the tunnels), or you’d give up on being able to run the shorter trains in multiple.

Yes. It's far too late to change the design now. And looking to the future, the key capacity constraint in the system is going to be at the London end, so you need to be able maximise throughput there. Which means 400m consists, and therefore units 200m long. However inefficient that make utilization at all the non-HS2 provincial stations served.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes. It's far too late to change the design now. And looking to the future, the key capacity constraint in the system is going to be at the London end, so you need to be able maximise throughput there. Which means 400m consists, and therefore units 200m long. However inefficient that make utilization at all the non-HS2 provincial stations served.

It's going to be decades between opening of the HS2 Core and us being short of capacity on the line. The line will be open a decade before it even makes it to Manchester.

If the initial fleet lasts that long, we can shorten the trains down to 200m if we need to, or just scrap them. Or disproportionate the fleet into 200m and 400m sets.

Trains are not a significant cost in the project, and we should use whatever is operationally best now.