Should seat reservations be abolished?

[bramling]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/available-if-unoccupied.192820/

The more I read on here, the more I think reservations should disappear altogether. We seem to manage perfectly well on routes that don’t have them.

 

[Mag_seven]

The more I read on here, the more I think reservations should disappear altogether. We seem to manage perfectly well on routes that don’t have them.

I agree but there are many who would disagree - have a look through previous threads on the topic!

 

[stj]

Make Inter-City trains reservation only as they are in other countries.

 

[Mag_seven]

Make Inter-City trains reservation only as they are in other countries.

Then you can say cheerio to the walk on railway. If the last train of the evening to your chosen destination is fully booked then tough!

 

[Chester1]

Then you can say cheerio to the walk on railway. If the last train of the evening to your chosen destination is fully booked then tough!

The compromise would be to make peak intercity trains reservation only and price to have them close to 100% occupancy. If someone can't get a seat on a peak time service then they would have to wait until the end of the peak. It would only work on a limited number of routes though.

 

[Ianno87]

I wish they weren't as 'ten a penny' as they currently are. Perhaps restricted to groups of 3 or more, Family/Senior/Disabled Railcards (or other proof of age/Disability), etc.

Perhaps a charge of £5 on everybody else.

What would also help of course would be to have trains consistently of sufficient capacity in the first place so people didn't feel the need to reserve seats.


Notwithstanding, if implemented effectively, seat reservations can have the effect of helping spread passengers along the length of the train, evening loadings and helping dwell times. However, the UK always seems rubbish at inplemebnting these - either clustering all reservations together in the same carriage on an otherwise empty train, or not giving 'Composition des Trains' information on the platform when boarding, so the spreading effect is lost.


With technology, the alternative is to go the whole hog and make long distance trains compulsory reservation. That does not necessarily mean losing the walk-up railway, but selecting your seat(s) on an App when you know when you want to travel. Spontineity being preserved by making quotas of seats unreservable until 10/20/30 etc. minutes before departure.

 

[VT 390]

I think that seat reservations are needed on long/distance intercity routes so you can guarantee not having to stand for long periods of time and you can get a seat you actually want such as if you prefer a Window seat to an aisle seat. But to stop people reserving them just because they can a small charge of around £1 should be introduced for each train you reserve a seat on, also there should be at least 1 unreserved carriage per train so it does not end up like Trans Pennine Express where all the seats can be reserved.

 

[Hadders]

There’s an argument to move wholly to counted place reservations, not making trains compulsory reservation only.

You’d need to have a way for certain people, e.g. disabled to book a specific seat but for everyone else it would be a free for all.

Not sure if I’d want it to happen but it’s an option.

 

[Failed Unit]

I filled in a very concerning survey from LNER.

they are proposing to move to the airline model of you get a free seat reservation but must pay to have a seat where you want it. Or if you want to sit with your friends/ family you must pay as the free reservation could put you anywhere.

I filled in the response with negative feedback. Hopefully LNER doesn’t take it forward.

I liked the BR system of £1 per group of 4. You could ask for a table if you wanted. But I don’t think removing the ability to reserve is a good move. People in small groups can’t sit together. Already happens where 1 person takes a table and then a group of 4 needs to have 2 airline seats.

 

[Hadders]

I filled in a very concerning survey from LNER.

they are proposing to move to the airline model of you get a free seat reservation but must pay to have a seat where you want it. Or if you want to sit with your friends/ family you must pay as the free reservation could put you anywhere.

I filled in the response with negative feedback. Hopefully LNER doesn’t take it forward.

I liked the BR system of £1 per group of 4. You could ask for a table if you wanted. But I don’t think removing the ability to reserve is a good move. People in small groups can’t sit together. Already happens where 1 person takes a table and then a group of 4 needs to have 2 airline seats.

Quite disgraceful if that’s their intention.

Train companies need to stop thinking they’re airlines and run the railway properly. I’d rather see no seat reservations at all than that sort of model.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If reservations are as they are today, there need to be signs saying "if reservations are not shown above the seat they do not apply" or somesuch. Then everyone knows where they are.

I favour, however, changing to a model of having unreserved and reserved coaches/areas but not marking reservations. This would allow that whole area of the train to have reservations added at any time, from your phone, a TVM, the ticket office or whatever. And it doesn't require any tech to work.

 

[AndyHudds]

Yes they should, the cause big big issues on TPE rush hour services at tea time. Trains pull in with reserved tickets on, practically the whole train causing people to stand up leaving empty seats, people who sit down are then ousted when there is standing room only peeing people off. You get on and there are reserved seats between Leeds and Huddersfield or Leeds and Dewsbury arrggh.

I guess the problem is exacerbated by on line booking, even buying an open return you get offered the chance to reserve a seat.

 

[VT 390]

Yes they should, the cause big big issues on TPE rush hour services at tea time. Trains pull in with reserved tickets on, practically the whole train causing people to stand up leaving empty seats, people who sit down are then ousted when there is standing room only peeing people off. You get on and there are reserved seats between Leeds and Huddersfield or Leeds and Dewsbury arrggh.

I guess the problem is exacerbated by on line booking, even buying an open return you get offered the chance to reserve a seat.

If you had a small charge for seat reservations and had at least 1 unreserved carriage this problem would mostly be solved, but getting rid of them it would mean people who need a certain seat or want to sit together would not be able to on some very busy services.

 

[hexagon789]

I think there will always be a need and demand for them on long-distance InterCity services, but I don't think that TOCs should try to emulate airline reservation schemes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think there will always be a need and demand for them on long-distance InterCity services, but I don't think that TOCs should try to emulate airline reservation schemes.

FWIW I would be happy to pay a little extra (maybe £5/leg) for reservation of an extra legroom priority seat as it would discourage others from reserving them if they didn't need them (with the seat selector Coach A Seat 45 on the Pendolino, my favourite seat, which I even prefer over First Class, is now proving VERY hard to get). At the moment there is no reason not to pick one (technically you could get unseated by someone needing it more than you, but that's actually never happened to me, as on IC type services such people tend to reserve a seat themselves anyway - Old Granny Smith probably never travels walk-up).

 

[hexagon789]

FWIW I would be happy to pay a little extra (maybe £5/leg) for reservation of an extra legroom priority seat as it would discourage others from reserving them if they didn't need them (with the seat selector Coach A Seat 45 on the Pendolino, my favourite seat, which I even prefer over First Class, is now proving VERY hard to get). At the moment there is no reason not to pick one (technically you could get unseated by someone needing it more than you, but that's actually never happened to me, as on IC type services such people tend to reserve a seat themselves anyway - Old Granny Smith probably never travels walk-up).

I guess but I think it might be better to simply restrict the ability to reserve priority seats rather than charge extra perhaps?

 

[VT 390]

I guess but I think it might be better to simply restrict the ability to reserve priority seats rather than charge extra perhaps?

The issue with this is if someone actually really needed a priority seat they may not get one, especially if 2 people needing one want to sit together, but if there are quite a few on a train then some could be reserved with others being left unreserved (in an unreserved carriage).

 

[hexagon789]

The issue with this is if someone actually really needed a priority seat they may not get one, especially if 2 people needing one want to sit together, but if there are quite a few on a train then some could be reserved with others being left unreserved (in an unreserved carriage).

That's precisely why I'd restrict it though, to those who need it rather than price it higher.

 

[VT 390]

That's precisely why I'd restrict it though, to those who need it rather than price it higher.

I agree that they should only be for people who need them but the people who need them should be able to reserve them so they do not have to worry about asking people to move out priority seats.

 

[hexagon789]

I agree that they should only be for people who need them but the people who need them should be able to reserve them so they do not have to worry about asking people to move out priority seats.

Indeed, isn't that what I was saying?

 

[VT 390]

Indeed, isn't that what I was saying?

Sorry, I thought you meant something different to what you actually meant.

 

[hexagon789]

Sorry, I thought you meant something different to what you actually meant.

No worries, think there's been crossed wires somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree that they should only be for people who need them but the people who need them should be able to reserve them so they do not have to worry about asking people to move out priority seats.

How would you define need, though, and prioritise the hierarchy of need?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I know we all moan about it, but how well do counted place reservations work for 'the ordinary customer'? Do they feel that they have lost out by not having a specified seat, or does the counting actually work in ensuring there's a seat for everyone?

If it turns out that counted places make everyone happy, how about going over entirely to that? If I have understood things correctly, that would need no change to the seat reservation computer coding at all (or at worst, no more than a minimal change). And going further would it be possible to mix a counted seat offer with a small number of specifically reserved seats for those who need them /who are willing to pay (so maybe free for disabled and senior Railcard holders, £5 a pop for anyone else)? I can see that this might need recoding though...

 

[yorkie]

I know we all moan about it, but how well do counted place reservations work for 'the ordinary customer'? Do they feel that they have lost out by not having a specified seat, or does the counting actually work in ensuring there's a seat for everyone?

If it turns out that counted places make everyone happy, how about going over entirely to that? If I have understood things correctly, that would need no change to the seat reservation computer coding at all (or at worst, no more than a minimal change). And going further would it be possible to mix a counted seat offer with a small number of specifically reserved seats for those who need them /who are willing to pay (so maybe free for disabled and senior Railcard holders, £5 a pop for anyone else)? I can see that this might need recoding though...

But is it really right that someone who has hearing difficulties (and someone travelling with them) and therefore entitled to a Disabled railcard should get a free reservation, while someone with a broken leg on crutches - who doesn't qualify - has to pay £5?

How would you define need, though, and prioritise the hierarchy of need?

Quite. The view of some ticket office staff is that the extra legroom seats are not for tall people, but are for elderly or disabled people with reduced mobility.

But even someone of average height, let alone a tall person, would really struggle with the amount of legroom deemed adequate by some train companies: https://twitter.com/RailFareWatch/status/980024613915643904 (image shows seats with hardly any legroom on a Northern service)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite. The view of some ticket office staff is that the extra legroom seats are not for tall people, but are for elderly or disabled people with reduced mobility.

I think that's the hierarchy of need - people of reduced mobility get first pick, then second pick for tall people, then third pick for everyone else. The trouble with allowing reservations is how on earth do you do that? They are best remaining unreserved, to be honest, then they can be taken (and given up if necessary) according to need on the day. This until the advent of the seat selector was how VTWC treated them.

That said, if all long-distance stock had the legroom of the Class 800 the issue would go away (I never choose a priority seat on those). There are many complaints about 80x, but the excellent legroom is one thing they got VERY right. Not only does it benefit tall people, but it helps solve the luggage problem as shorter people can put bags in front of their knees.

 

[VT 390]

I know we all moan about it, but how well do counted place reservations work for 'the ordinary customer'? Do they feel that they have lost out by not having a specified seat, or does the counting actually work in ensuring there's a seat for everyone?

If it turns out that counted places make everyone happy, how about going over entirely to that? If I have understood things correctly, that would need no change to the seat reservation computer coding at all (or at worst, no more than a minimal change). And going further would it be possible to mix a counted seat offer with a small number of specifically reserved seats for those who need them /who are willing to pay (so maybe free for disabled and senior Railcard holders, £5 a pop for anyone else)? I can see that this might need recoding though...

The issue with counted place reservations is it does not guarantee a seat as there could be lots of people on Anytime tickets on the train as well taking up seats.

I agree that people with certain railcards should get free reservations but for other people who may need them as well perhaps a system could be introduced where you pay for one but can claim it back somehow, although it may be easier for people with temporary disability's to just use priority seats but a way would need to be found to get a priority seat easier such as temporary priority seat cards.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Counted places are not seat reservations in the manner of say National Express (who sell no more tickets for a given service than the number of seats, but you sit wherever). They are purely for Advance quota reasons and have no other purpose, nor, other than with a system of compulsory reservation, could they feasibly have.

Counted places do not give any entitlement to a seat.

 

[Meerkat]

Ending seat reservations would be shocking PR - it just shouts ‘we can’t run a railway’.
And the high fare people will just get in their car if they can’t be sure they have a seat on a train.

Also can you imagine the stampedes down the ramp at Euston if the entire train was first come first served!!

 

[PeterC]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/available-if-unoccupied.192820/

The more I read on here, the more I think reservations should disappear altogether. We seem to manage perfectly well on routes that don’t have them.

Going back to the OP I think that the thread referred to, and similar ones, give the impression that the reservation system is seriously broken.
Without some figures to say what proportion of trains run with reservations inactive or how many people are expected to move because their seats have been booked after they boarded it is difficult to make a judgement on the question.