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Should Scotrail order tilting trains?

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RailWonderer

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I was thinking Scotrail with its low line speeds and long sections of curved track could do with 100mph RegioSwinger type trains to allow 156s to scrap and a cascade of 158 sets and even a send off of the HST short sets. Reducing journey times would be the key to improving many of Scotland's longer distance journeys despite many other suggestions posted. Would this be something Transport Scotland, or the DfT/GBR would even consider?
 
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Bletchleyite

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Message to the mods: If this needs to move to speculative, you may do so.

I was thinking Scotrail with its low line speeds and long sections of curved track could do with 100mph RegioSwinger type trains to allow 156s to scrap and a cascade of 158 sets and even a send off of the HST short sets. Reducing journey times would be the key to improving many of Scotland's longer distance journeys despite many other suggestions posted. Would this be something Transport Scotland, or the DfT/GBR would even consider?

Wouldn't make a huge difference in my view. By all means replace the HSTs, I'd go 5-car 80x for those. For the scenic lines I'd go to Stadler for something with a panoramic First Class provision - money for old rope.
 

lachlan

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Agreed that journey times need improving, but I believe tilting trains are on their way out in the UK (HS2 services won't tilt) so I doubt they'll be seen as a good investment for Scotland.

Electrification and the resulting faster accelerations should improve journey times in the future.
 

gordonthemoron

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Whilst the tilting diesel Regio units that DB have are entertaining to ride on, they have a much more marked tilt than on a Pendolino or ICE-T, how popular would they be with the general public
 

Journeyman

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Agreed that journey times need improving, but I believe tilting trains are on their way out in the UK (HS2 services won't tilt) so I doubt they'll be seen as a good investment for Scotland.

Electrification and the resulting faster accelerations should improve journey times in the future.
Yeah, tilt is expensive, complex and heavy in terms of additional kit needed, and much of the advantage it gives has been eroded by faster accelerating new trains.

Note CrossCountry got rid of it pretty quickly, and Avanti's new trains won't have it. It wouldn't surprise me if tilt on the Pendolinos gets isolated/removed eventually.
 

RailWonderer

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Faster accelerating reduces journey times, but tilt would add to that, I don't see why faster acceleration negates the need for tilt, used together will lead to even better improvements. As for electrification, it is overrated. Many lines simply will not be viable to electrify, and its not like we're running out of fuel.
 

The Planner

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Faster accelerating reduces journey times, but tilt would add to that, I don't see why faster acceleration negates the need for tilt, used together will lead to even better improvements. As for electrification, it is overrated. Many lines simply will not be viable to electrify, and its not like we're running out of fuel.
Depends what the tilt speed vs normal speed would be.
For example 1 mile at 75mph is 48 seconds, 80mph is 45 seconds, 90mph is 40 seconds, 100mph is 36 seconds. Unless the tilt speed is significantly higher (bear in mind on the WCML the differences aren't massive) it won't make that much difference to journey times unless there is a significant distance of it. 75mph vs 90mph needs 7½ miles for a minutes gain.
 

RailWonderer

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On the WCML it is a case of 110 vs 125, but on the Scottish network it would be 55-70 vs 90-95 usually. On routes, especially Inverness - Perth, the WHL, the FNL and Arbroath - Aberdeen is quite curvy.
 

lachlan

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On the WCML it is a case of 110 vs 125, but on the Scottish network it would be 55-70 vs 90-95 usually. On routes, especially Inverness - Perth, the WHL, the FNL and Arbroath - Aberdeen is quite curvy.
I reckon for these lines (excluding Arbroath to Aberdeen) the primary constraint is waiting at passing places. More dualling/passing places would reduce this, and would probably be necessary for tilting trains to be effective.
 

RobShipway

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I have not been able find the link on their Youtube site, but a few years ago Network Rail produced a video explaining that on many curves on the WCML, they where replacing the track such that on the bends the outer rail would be that bit higher than the inner rail. This would not only allow the Pendolino's to still be doing their 125mph on the bends, but only non tilting trains to be doing 100 - 110mph rather than having to slow down to 60 - 80mph.

This actually would mean that timing would not make much difference between a Pendolino doing the route or an HST when it came to doing the same route. It was also found that non - tilt trains could catch up the timings on the straight sections.

So with Network Rail making changes to the track such as the above, there is no longer a need for tilting trains once the class 390's have come to the end of their lives.
 

Bald Rick

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I have not been able find the link on their Youtube site, but a few years ago Network Rail produced a video explaining that on many curves on the WCML, they where replacing the track such that on the bends the outer rail would be that bit higher than the inner rail.

That is known as superelevation, or cant, and has been a feature of U.K. railways for as long as I can remember.
 

waverley47

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I was thinking Scotrail with its low line speeds and long sections of curved track could do with 100mph RegioSwinger type trains to allow 156s to scrap and a cascade of 158 sets and even a send off of the HST short sets. Reducing journey times would be the key to improving many of Scotland's longer distance journeys despite many other suggestions posted. Would this be something Transport Scotland, or the DfT/GBR would even consider?


So, firstly why do we have tilting trains?

Tilt exists to make increase the permissible speed for the fastest passenger trains. It does this not by changing any infrastructure, but by making the rules on lateral forces going around sharp curves. Passengers don't feel the outward force because the train tilts to compensate, so drinks don't fly off tables and noone gets slammed into the side of the train.

There isn't any infrastructure change required. Pendolinos use active tilt, which means a trackside beacon tells them to tilt at a specific point, but there are passively tilting trains that just swing slowly.

What this means is that you don't need excessive cant (superelevation or one rail being higher than the other). Every curve on the network has this, but some more than others. On a fast line where everything is going at max speed (think HS2) you can have the perfectly optimised superelevation, but on a mixed traffic route that doesn't work. You need lower cant for the freight trains going at lower speeds, and higher cant for the passengers to compensate for their higher speed, and obviously you can't have both at once. Too high cant means excessive forces from freight, too low and passengers get flung around every time you take a corner at high speeds.

Tilt solves this conundrum. Passengers don't experience the excessive forces, and the track doesn't experience excessive forces from freight trains.

So, tilt is very useful on main lines with very fast passenger trains, but that are very curvy and carry a lot of freight. You can eek out another 15mph or so on curves.

In Scotland this is less of an issue, where passenger trains only travel at 100mph max (WCML and ECML aside). You don't need tilt to compensate and eek out an extra 15mph, as it's less of an issue, and as noted above, you'd need a lot of it to gain a few minutes journey time saving.

Passively tilting trains might work, but they're expensive and quite heavy. Active tilt is basically a dead technology in this country, as that's even more expensive and even heavier. Post HS2, it's likely that we'll see a lot of tilt removed and classic trains on the WCML running at normal (not enhanced) speeds.

In Scotland, you'd be introducing a new technology, with new trains, to save very little in journey time. You'd catch up with stoppers quicker, and likely you probably wouldn't really save much in terms of journey time.

You can receive similar savings in journey time with a unit that accelerates more quickly, or removing the few odd severe speed restrictions across bridges or through tunnels, or using an electric unit which is lighter and accelerates faster.

Faster accelerating reduces journey times, but tilt would add to that, I don't see why faster acceleration negates the need for tilt, used together will lead to even better improvements. As for electrification, it is overrated. Many lines simply will not be viable to electrify, and its not like we're running out of fuel.

Yes, together they'd lead to better improvements, but is it worth spending money on tilt to save 5 minutes from Edinburgh to Aberdeen? That's unlikely.

Electrification is a much more efficient power source, and units can be lighter and accelerate faster. Also remember that most tilt units are electric anyway, so you'd struggle to find new tilting diesel units when the time comes to replace the hsts.

Wiring is expensive, but at the end of the day is a much stronger investment to reduce journey times and increase capacity than tilt north of the border.
 

The Planner

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On the WCML it is a case of 110 vs 125, but on the Scottish network it would be 55-70 vs 90-95 usually. On routes, especially Inverness - Perth, the WHL, the FNL and Arbroath - Aberdeen is quite curvy.
Based on what? how have you come up with those speeds?
I have not been able find the link on their Youtube site, but a few years ago Network Rail produced a video explaining that on many curves on the WCML, they where replacing the track such that on the bends the outer rail would be that bit higher than the inner rail. This would not only allow the Pendolino's to still be doing their 125mph on the bends, but only non tilting trains to be doing 100 - 110mph rather than having to slow down to 60 - 80mph.

This actually would mean that timing would not make much difference between a Pendolino doing the route or an HST when it came to doing the same route. It was also found that non - tilt trains could catch up the timings on the straight sections.

So with Network Rail making changes to the track such as the above, there is no longer a need for tilting trains once the class 390's have come to the end of their lives.
That is nonsense about trains catching up the timings and the differences between HSTs and Pendos.
 

waverley47

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It's notably much less of a feature in Germany, which might be why they were attracted to regional tilt.

That is an incredibly interesting titbit of knowledge, thank you for that.

Has it historically never been a thing or are there operational reasons for such?
 

Bletchleyite

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That is an incredibly interesting titbit of knowledge, thank you for that.

Has it historically never been a thing or are there operational reasons for such?

I don't know I'm afraid, it's just from observation while travelling the rails of Germany (and being thrown all over the place while doing so!)
 

XAM2175

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It's notably much less of a feature in Germany, which might be why they were attracted to regional tilt.
It's a similar rationale behind the only application of tilting technology in Australia, as I've mentioned before: the North Coast line in Queensland is narrow gauge (3'6"), meandering, and very much a dominated by (and tailored to) freight traffic but carries a small number of long-distance passenger services - so it makes sense to have a small fleet of tilting units rather than fiddling with the cant on over a thousand miles of line. There are significant stretches of the line that have a 37 mph difference between tilt and non-tilt stock (99 over 62) and the tilt speed limit everywhere else is between 12 and 24 mph higher than non-tilt.

I don't see as much application here though, where stops are much closer together.
 

Senex

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I don't know I'm afraid, it's just from observation while travelling the rails of Germany (and being thrown all over the place while doing so!)
DB allows up to 160 mm cant and up to 150 mm of cant deficiency on standard-gauge ballasted track, with slightly lower levels as the standard and also through station platforms and pointwork, very much as is done here and on other European networks. There's a good survey of the situation at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Überhöhung which refers to the Eisenbahnbau- und Betriebsordnung and also to the relevant DB Netz/Infrastruktur Richtlinien. It also gives a useful reference to a good historical survey in von Röll's Enzyklopädie (a superb work, and well worth getting to know if you haven't already come across it). I'm afraid the article is German-only — the translations to which links are given are to briefer articles that don't give as much German information.
 

hexagon789

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I was thinking Scotrail with its low line speeds and long sections of curved track could do with 100mph RegioSwinger type trains to allow 156s to scrap and a cascade of 158 sets and even a send off of the HST short sets. Reducing journey times would be the key to improving many of Scotland's longer distance journeys despite many other suggestions posted. Would this be something Transport Scotland, or the DfT/GBR would even consider?
No.

Really isn't worthwhile anywhere.

Firstly the cost of tilting trains.

Secondly they are heavier - so higher track access charges.

Thirdly more expensive to maintain

Fourthly you need to actually have work done to map out 'tilt speeds'

Fifthly - the speed differences will for the most part not be especially high.

Sixthly - the heavier tilting trains will need more power to offeet the weight so they don't actually accelerate slower than non-tilting trains which will increase fuel consumption and costs.

Seven - there are few particularly long sections between stations where higher speeds round curves would save more than a few minutes, most of the fast sections are on straight or reasonably straight sections or if they have low speeds they are often lower than speeds at which tilt would make a difference anyway - such as approaches to stations or junctions.

Eight - increased cost for what benefit?

In my view when the HSTs are done, ScotRail will order some new bi-mode trains for its internal InterCity services which will have improved performance which could cut journey times by a few more minutes anyway. After that tilt isn't really going to save you very much more - distances just aren't that great between most stops for sustained higher speed running in general.
 

RobShipway

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Based on what? how have you come up with those speeds?

That is nonsense about trains catching up the timings and the differences between HSTs and Pendos.
Can I suggest that you read Hexagon789 post above please.
 

The Planner

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Can I suggest that you read Hexagon789 post above please.
What has that to do with what you posted about the WCML? Its already there so the work is done. There is no talk whatsoever about removing tilt off the WCML as it stands.
 

Bald Rick

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It's notably much less of a feature in Germany, which might be why they were attracted to regional tilt.

That is an incredibly interesting titbit of knowledge, thank you for that.

Has it historically never been a thing or are there operational reasons for such?

DB still cant their track, and just as much as we do. However they are more liberal with the speed limits around the curves, resulting in higher levels of cant deficiency - what you experience as being ‘thrown around’. The French are the same. Indeed so are we on a few sections of line (Berks & Hants, ECML north of Newcastle, amongst others).
 
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RailWonderer

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Based on what? how have you come up with those speeds?

That is nonsense about trains catching up the timings and the differences between HSTs and Pendos.
I based it on the German equivalent on the routes the DB class 612 is used on, and assumed Scotland has similar line speeds based on comments on here made by staff who work on Scotrail trains and who have route knowledge. If anyone with that knowledge could clarify I would be glad to be proven wrong.

I understand a lot of the former East German network those tilting diesels are used on were unelectrified and some still are.
Of course, this map is not mine.
 

HSTEd

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I have often pondered this - on the face of it Scotrail could benefit from such a solution.

It has a lot of slow bendy lines where a tilting train with magnetic track brakes and huge installed power could significantly reduce travel time.

To be honest, a study on the impacts of high performance DMUs, alongside the impacts of track brakes (allowing faster approaches to level crossings etc) and tilting, on these routes would be way more useful to society than yet another study on a no-hoper reopening in rural Scotland, Wales or wherever.
 

RobShipway

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This link https://garethdennis.medium.com/is-the-end-already-in-sight-for-britains-tilting-trains-b6ebb496433c from railway engineer Gareth Dennis, helps explain why I am saying that there is no need for tilting trains, once the class 390's have come to the end of their service life.

Here is a section of this piece:

"On the WCML, where the speed differential between slow trains and fast trains is at its most extreme and curves are plentiful, the application of enough cant to enable 125mph for LDHSSs resulted in significant excess cant for freight trains and an unacceptable long-term maintenance liability. Hence the development and use of the tilting train, which essentially adds its own cant on top of that applied by track engineers.

Over the years, however, permanent way engineers have realised that maximising cant deficiency is actually beneficial for the operational railway, particularly in reducing the occurrence of rolling contact fatigue (gauge corner cracking, a type of rolling contact fatigue, caused the 2000 Hatfield derailment).

At the same time, the performance of stopping passenger and “slow” freight trains has increased. More electric trains and multiple units with faster acceleration, freight wagons that are capable of better ride quality at higher speeds, as well as the great leap in intermodal rather than bulk freight all contribute to a reduced speed differential between the slowest and fastest trains."

As the document states tilting trains are like bi-mode trains, there are a solution as an answer cannot be found with the infrastructure. However, in the link it does go on to say "On the WCML, there’s another factor at play. Unlike the East Coast Mainline with its long straight sections and the occasional curvy bit, the West Coast Mainline has a speed profile like a sawtooth, with or without tilt in operation. Even the Pendolino isn’t particularly quick at accelerating out of curves and, in a few cases, drivers can’t make much use of the short stretches of higher permissible speeds."

The above and what is within the link, is why I don't think that Scotrail should purchase tilt trains, as work by engineers on the tracks of the rails is making it such that with the newer trains such as class 8xx and class 397 that have faster acceleration than the class 390 because of the weight that it is carrying, it would be better for Scotrail to invest in bi-mode trains that have fast acceleration speed.

You also got to ask yourself, why would Avanti West coast hire class 8xx units that don't tilt to replace class 221 units that do?
 
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AM9

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... You also got to ask yourself, why would Avanti West coast hire class 8xx units that don't tilt to replace class 221 units that do?
Because over the next 20 years, their ability to not pollute/consume vast quantities of carbon fuel whilst running under OLE from London to Wolverhampton or Crewe is very important. Despite dragging diesel gensets along under the wires, their carbon profile is way better than the Voyagers.
 

RobShipway

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Because over the next 20 years, their ability to not pollute/consume vast quantities of carbon fuel whilst running under OLE from London to Wolverhampton or Crewe is very important. Despite dragging diesel gensets along under the wires, their carbon profile is way better than the Voyagers.
Fair comment, but Advanti still could have requested tilting bi-mode trains. Why was that not done?
 

Irascible

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No manufacturer offers one, for a start, and the order is quite small so the development costs would be very high per unit.

I don't have the engineering articles to hand & haven't read them in years, but weren't there some developments in tilting bogies going on? rather than having to pivot the body you can add a little tilt to the secondary suspension was the idea, ISTR.

Is there any freight in the far North anymore? Scotrail could just increase cant rather than tilt the trains... ( unless they're bumping the limits already, but at those line speeds a bit more tilt is hardly going to make a huge difference then, I'd think ).
 
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