Should people be allowed to stand in 1st class on very crowded services.

[WYSH]

As per the title.

Reason I ask I was on a very crowded voyager the other morning from Wakefield to Leeds. That busy that people were also stood almost on top of one another throughout the train including down the isle in 1st class. One 1st class passenger was not overly happily being very vocal about the crowded nature of the cabin.

It got me thinking should staff stop people entering 1st class on very busy services even if they have no where else to go but be left behind on the platform.

Regards

Jake

 

[bramling]

As per the title.

Reason I ask I was on a very crowded voyager the other morning from Wakefield to Leeds. That busy that people were also stood almost on top of one another throughout the train including down the isle in 1st class. One 1st class passenger was not overly happily being very vocal about the crowded nature of the cabin.

It got me thinking should staff stop people entering 1st class on very busy services even if they have no where else to go but be left behind on the platform.

Regards

Jake

Personal view - not when everything is running normally. There’s a case for declassifying during major disruption.

 

[farci]

If I had paid a 50% premium to sit in first class can I ask for a refund in these circumstances?

 

[gsnedders]

If I had paid a 50% premium to sit in first class can I ask for a refund in these circumstances?

If 1st class is declassified, then yes, you are entitled to a refund of the different in price to a standard class ticket (I don't know how this works with Advance tickets though!).

If there are people standing in 1st who hold 1st class tickets, they no, because they're entitled to be there.

If there are people standing in 1st who don't hold 1st class tickets, then something has gone wrong if they aren't asked to leave or pay to upgrade.

[Edit, to add:]

I'm not going to take quite such a hard line as bramling, but in general 1st class where provided should be restricted to 1st class ticket holders, regardless of how busy the train is; where I will disagree is that I think even when there's no disruption declassifying can be sensible if there's a clear reason that couldn't be forecast. If people are regularly getting left behind as a result, the TOC (potentially in combination with the DfT/TS/WA, depending on contractual requirements) should be revisiting ratio of 1st classtandard class provision, train length, etc.

 

[farci]

So in practical terms Invaders don’t trigger a declassification especially on a crowded service. Implications for revenue?

 

[Starmill]

It is my experience that CrossCountry don't allow passengers with standard class tickets to use First Class even if there is a lot of empty space in there, and standard is so full that it's difficult to board.

Other operators do this sometimes. I've had it myself on TransPennine Express several times.

I have actually seen people being left behind by XC services where there would have been space to allow them to board if First Class were being used to the fullest. So I would say that what you're asking for is already the reality in at least some cases.

 

[Starmill]

If I had paid a 50% premium to sit in first class can I ask for a refund in these circumstances?

50% extra? You can expect to pay far more than that for most CrossCountry flows...

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is my experience that CrossCountry don't allow passengers with standard class tickets to use First Class even if there is a lot of empty space in there, and standard is so full that it's difficult to board.

Other operators do this sometimes. I've had it myself on TransPennine Express several times.

Some operators are by contrast incredibly quick to do it. On certain trains, it seems to be unusual for it not to be done on LNR as well as in LM days.

It's a bit easier for them, though; what they usually do is not declassify until the doors have closed at Euston, which means all the First Class ticket holders get the guaranteed seat they are effectively paying for, and so even if they are technically entitled to claim a refund most of them probably won't (on 350/1 and /3, Standard is more comfortable and spacious than 1st, so there is no other reason to buy a 1st ticket on LNR unless your train is always a 350/2 or 319, the latter having particularly nice 1st with 2+1 seating and the only 1st on the south WCML worth paying for). Declassification southbound is much rarer.

 

[Parallel]

If a train is exceptionally busy then I think the priority should be shifted from ‘providing a first class service’ to ‘getting as many people as possible to their destination’.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a train is exceptionally busy then I think the priority should be shifted from ‘providing a first class service’ to ‘getting as many people as possible to their destination’.

I certainly think declassification should be used in preference to anyone being left on a platform. This is the same approach, after all, that airlines take - they will upgrade people for free rather than leave "bumped" Economy passengers at the airport.

 

[The_Train]

My personal view is that no-one other than those with first class tickets should be in a first class area. At the end of the day, people pay a premium not just for a bit of food and maybe comfier seats but also for the fact it's usually less cramped. For me, if I'm waiting for a Voyager (as an example) and it's announced as a 5 car train I instantly know that I have an opportunity to sit/stand in 4 of those 5 cars and if they are full then it's tough

 

[johntea]

The chances of Wakefield to Leeds checks on these services taking place is 0.0000000001% in my experience anyway, perhaps slightly higher in the opposite direction but not by much!

So it'll probably continue to be a problem whether the first class passengers are happy or not.

 

[cuccir]

I think if we're talking about a train leaving people on the platform, or loading to potentially unsafe levels, then declassificaiton of first class with refunds is appropriate. The bar should be fairly high for this - one thing that people in first class are paying for is to guard against potential overcrowding - but to say never seems a bit inflexible; while first-class ticket holders can be high value customers, if you leave 10 people on the platform when you've space in first class there's a good chance you might lose their business in future and this is likely to be worth much more. If I were refunding 1st class holders on declassfieid trains, I'd offer the difference between first class and standard ticket + 10%, the latter being a gesture of good will.

 

[Jonfun]

Ultimately the decision to declassify First Class is done by the crew on board; my pet peeve though is crew who make no effort to either police First Class or report it as declassified, as folk who have paid for a First Class ticket in those circumstances will find it much more difficult to get the compensation they're allowed if it hasn't been reported to control on the day.

 

[bramling]

I think if we're talking about a train leaving people on the platform, or loading to potentially unsafe levels, then declassificaiton of first class with refunds is appropriate. The bar should be fairly high for this - one thing that people in first class are paying for is to guard against potential overcrowding - but to say never seems a bit inflexible; while first-class ticket holders can be high value customers, if you leave 10 people on the platform when you've space in first class there's a good chance you might lose their business in future and this is likely to be worth much more. If I were refunding 1st class holders on declassfieid trains, I'd offer the difference between first class and standard ticket + 10%, the latter being a gesture of good will.

The point is that people who have paid (quite often quite a bit) extra for first rightly expect that they won't have standard class ticket holders in their area.

It's one thing making an exemption during major disruption when quite reasonably the emphasis should be on getting as many people as possible to their destination in the most painless way. In this case first class users should be compensated accordingly. However during normal running I'd be unhappy if I'd paid a hefty supplement for first to find someone else can use the same accommodation having paid less - especially as in most cases it will be the latecomers who as well as paying less also haven't bothered to turn up early.

There's a perfectly reasonable argument for not having first, particular on commuter routes, however if it's there and the railway takes the extra money off people then it's quite reasonable to expect the full experience.

 

[sefton]

If a train is exceptionally busy then I think the priority should be shifted from ‘providing a first class service’ to ‘getting as many people as possible to their destination’.

Exactly, and perhaps it needs the train company's customers to be a bit more bullish - there is no way I would let a train leave me behind if there was unused standing room in first class.

 

[221129]

Exactly, and perhaps it needs the train company's customers to be a bit more bullish - there is no way I would let a train leave me behind if there was unused standing room in first class.

Good way to end up with either a further delay to the train, or you in court...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good way to end up with either a further delay to the train, or you in court...

Very, very unlikely, as if it's *that* busy no inspectors are going to come through.

 

[221129]

Very, very unlikely, as if it's *that* busy no inspectors are going to come through.

If they are keeping First class clear, then they are very likely to be going through first class at least....

 

[Kite159]

Good way to end up with either a further delay to the train, or you in court...

Yeah right...

And once one person gets into the 1st class area, others will follow and the member of staff will be facing a riot if they tried to kick them all out.

 

[sefton]

Good way to end up with either a further delay to the train, or you in court...

The delay to the train is irrelevant if I am not on it!

However the delay to customers should be the concern of the train company's employees who should be taking steps to ensure ALL customers get to their destination on time, not just those who have paid more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they are keeping First class clear, then they are very likely to be going through first class at least....

I don't think the OP said anyone was actually enforcing it by standing there.

 

[sefton]

If they are keeping First class clear, then they are very likely to be going through first class at least....

I wouldn't be in first class but on the platform trying to get onto the train by encouraging people to move down in standard class.

And because the train staff could see people could not get on despite their being room in first class I would expect them to take appropriate action (which would not be to try to dispatch the train as that would be dangerous).

 

[WYSH]

I don't think the OP said anyone was actually enforcing it by standing there.

Correct.

Staff weren’t blocking access nor forcing people to move although an announcement was made reminding people to travel in the correct carriage so XC weren’t technically declassifing but ticket checks weren’t carried out.

 

[BurtonM]

In the case of TPE I think they should allow it a lot more often. I don't see why half a carriage in a three car unit should be given up for fifteen people when you could fit three times as many people in there. Just save the actual seats for passengers, and let people in standard stand, or something.

 

[Starmill]

The point is that people who have paid (quite often quite a bit) extra for first rightly expect that they won't have standard class ticket holders in their area.

Frankly I don't think this is what ANY First Class ticket holders think they've bought, except maybe for you.

A more spacious and comfortable seating area, a more 'premium' ambience and quality of fittings, a greater likelihood of a seat on trains where seats cannot be reserved, and a complimentary service provided at seat are all things that people booking First Class are likely to be expecting in exchange for a First Class ticket purchase.

Simply the right to exclude customers who don't have First Class tickets from their area for no reason beyond that is a deeply illogical and almost incomprehensibly bizarre thing to want to try to buy. Pretty much no reasonable person would ever pay more for that alone. It's also very clear, in my view, that this is something that is not on offer when you buy a First Class ticket.

 

[Panda]

First class should be declassified when trains become too full. Standard class passengers also pay fares and also have expectations of what the service will provide. If there was a bit more space and maybe even a seat available in standard class, I doubt that the majority of standard class ticket holders would still choose/be forced to stand in first class accommodation.

 

[underbank]

First class should be declassified when trains become too full.

On particularly rammed services, yes, as long as first class passengers receive a refund on the extra they paid. On just "busy" services, definitely not. I pay a huge amount extra for first class, not for the meals or wifi, etc., but for the more comfortable/larger seats, peace and quiet, and more often than not, either a table to myself. It's a choice I make - my own cost/benefit analysis. When I don't pay extra for first, I know, and accept, the risk I may end up, worst case scenario, standing in a vestibule. If I end up, having paid a fortune for first class, being bumped and bashed by standing passengers in the aisles, unable to work because of noise, no chance of a meal because the trolley can't get through, then I want a refund. On longer trains, I think it should be up to the guard to declassify one coach and move first class passengers from it to the other first class coaches if there is space, hence enabling one coach to be declassified - if he can't do that because all the first class coaches are pretty much full, then no declassification at all and no second class standing in first either.

 

[sprunt]

The point is that people who have paid (quite often quite a bit) extra for first rightly expect that they won't have standard class ticket holders in their area.

Hence the refund of the premium that would be available in that situation. There's no fundamental right to be kept segregated from the plebs on a train.

 

[sprunt]

While obviously there's a variation between different services, where there are going to be passengers left on the platform does anyone know if it would generally be cheaper for a TOC to declassify first and refund the first class ticket holders, or to pay delay repay to the people left on the platform?