Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

[cjp]

I live in a city where the council can no longer afford to fund, among other things, social welfare legal rights services, the CAB, swimming pools, libraries, weekly bin collections, street cleaning, dementia care and leisure centres. Many school bus routes in the area are operated commercially- charging commercial fares- because the council cannot afford to support them.

They could afford it if they could put up local taxes - which would no doubt loose votes
Read my signature

 

[JamesRowden]

How much was the state pension reduced by to fund free bus travel?

It is possible for the total effective income of pensioners (including free bus passes, free TV licences etc.) to change. If you could come up with a fully objective reason for exactly how much each pensioner should be given I would be impressed. Perhaps the old level was correct, perhaps the new level is correct.

 

[najaB]

It is possible for the total effective income of pensioners (including free bus passes, free TV licences etc.) to change.

I know and appreciate that, I was curious as JamesRowden's assertion was that free bus passes reduce the need for state pensions. I took that as saying that it was cost neutral, in which case the state pension would have had to have been reduced (or an increase postponed).

Did either of those happen? If not, then free bus passes do represent and additional cost to the treasury.

 

[JamesRowden]

I know and appreciate that, I was curious as JamesRowden's assertion was that free bus passes reduce the need for state pensions. I took that as saying that it was cost neutral, in which case the state pension would have had to have been reduced (or an increase postponed).

Did either of those happen? If not, then free bus passes do represent and additional cost to the treasury.

You made the mistake of assuming that I assumed that supply would always equal need

 

[lobby ludd]

Was in the Isle of Man yesterday (not part of the UK or the EU), and noted that restrictions on pensioner benefits have recently been introduced there, namely, their version of the bus pass is no longer valid during evening 'rush hour', and free tv licences for the over 75s has been ended - latter decision taken by the BBC.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Some seem to have a mindset where everything belongs to someone, and someone can only have something if it's taken from someone else.

"The taxpayer" in many cases equals the people being spoken about who have paid into the system. And as far as elderly people go, they are "the taxpayer" who will quite possibly have to sell their assets to pay for social and nursing care,

despite the care costs cap coming in and the current arrangements...

despite the fact Nursing care is free at the point fo delivery under the NHS ( the NHS pays 112 gbp/ week to the operators of Nursing homes per 'Nursing' resident for the services of the homes' own Nurses , in addition to the NHS offering all services other than standard 'district nurses' to these residents )

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/what-is-nhs-funded-nursing-care.aspx

which tax isn't going towards, and then have anything left over (if they are indeed rich enough) to be subject to 40% lopped off in inheritance tax too. There are many who wouldn't be able to afford travel, so it is rather sweeping to brandish a figure and claim it is unnecessary.

a rather london centric view ( given the baby boomers who purchased property in the 60s and 70s are the only none oligarchs who can afford to own a property in London ) outside the M25 the vastest majority of estates do not bother the IHT thresholds, especially given their upward movement and couples relief ...

The point of paying tax isn't to save into a piggy bank for yourself, it's the fund the collective. If you want to shout out for "the taxpayer" I can think of a whole host of issues to campaign on, about those who really do spend "your" money on tat by the billion. However taking one rare instance where comparatively small amounts of "your" money actually ends up in the pockets or to the benefit of the ordinary person isn't one of them.

I find this conversation not just a sad indictment of a miserable country with an increasingly miserable mindset, but also a sad indictment of our education system.

The sad indictment is the ignorance and lack of social conscience of some baby boomers with their paper millionaire status - often boosted by their laughable attempts at being amateur property tycoons

 

[miami]

despite the care costs cap coming in and the current arrangements...

I'd be in favour of all care costs being applied as a charge on assets - no need to sell up to afford nursing care, the cost of that care simply gets added as a charge on the house you're living in (or the shares you own, or however your assets are stored), and is paid off upon death. Same should also apply to council tax and other essentials - seems unfair to charge people £1400 a year in local tax when they have a low income and high assets, so simply add it onto the asset (with the debt indexed linked with a tripple lock of the highest out of pension rises, house price inflation, and wage rises)

There should still be some way to move house and transfer the debt to the new house - don't want people trapped in houses they no-longer want, but at some point in the 60 years after retirement you will die, and at that point the money owed in taxes can be reclaimed. Effectively it's equity release, but with more protection than the schemes advertised in newspapers.

Old people still use trains mind, even when they aren't free. A group of elderly men on the train from shrewsbury to crewe last night, very loud, very drunk. They did have tickets though.

 

[AM9]

despite the care costs cap coming in and the current arrangements...

despite the fact Nursing care is free at the point fo delivery under the NHS ( the NHS pays 112 gbp/ week to the operators of Nursing homes per 'Nursing' resident for the services of the homes' own Nurses , in addition to the NHS offering all services other than standard 'district nurses' to these residents )

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/what-is-nhs-funded-nursing-care.aspx



a rather london centric view ( given the baby boomers who purchased property in the 60s and 70s are the only none oligarchs who can afford to own a property in London ) outside the M25 the vastest majority of estates do not bother the IHT thresholds, especially given their upward movement and couples relief ...



The sad indictment is the ignorance and lack of social conscience of the baby boomers with their paper millionaire status - often boosted by their laughable attempts at being amateur property tycoons

Do you know any of these ingnorant pensioners with a lack of social conscience personally then?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Do you know any of these ingnorant pensioners with a lack of social conscience personally then?

having had the dubious pleasure of renting properties from people meeting that discription of having to care for them ( or their parents) yes i do

 

[AM9]

having had the dubious pleasure of renting properties from people meeting that discrition of having to care for them ( or their parents) yes i do

discrition?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

discrition?

I see the Spelling and Grammar flamers have arrived to try and divert attention from their off forum behaviours ...

 

[AM9]

I see the Spelling and Grammar flamers have arrived to try and divert attention from their off forum behaviours ...

I asked what the word was, preferring not to make a wild guess which may have resulted in a response that was inappropriate or simply just wrong.

Can you please explain what "their off forum behaviours" means? If you are going to point the finger at persons unnamed, you could at least explain what it is that they are supposed to have done.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I asked what the word was, preferring not to make a wild guess which may have resulted in a response that was inappropriate or simply just wrong.

Can you please explain what "their off forum behaviours" means? If you are going to point the finger at persons unnamed, you could at least explain what it is that they are supposed to have done.

i.e. those defending their actions as amateur property tycoon baby boomers and tryign to place blame on younger people ...

 

[AM9]

i.e. those defending their actions as amateur property tycoon baby boomers and tryign to place blame on younger people ...

I have never heard of anybody doing this, nor met anybody else who has. There are of course good landlords and bad ones, and I don't think that a majority of the older generation landlords can be rightfully described as 'tycoon baby boomers' and according to you, bad landlords. Many of the 55-70 year-olds would like to downsize but are prevented by a lack of unsuitable property and/or an unwillingness of lenders to advance mortgages, at least on the same sort of terms that younger adults get offered.
As for your ainference that members of this forum are "amateur proprty tycoon baby boomers" that are defending there actions and "tryign to place blame on younger people", unless you have actual evidence, I think that it would be better to reign back on such wild accusations.
All this is way off-topic for a thread about free rail travel so it is fruitless continuing on this rental 'issue' that you are engaged in and I will not comment further on it.

 

[Butts]

Anyone put forward a case for Senior Citizens to get free Air Travel on UK Domestic flights?

 

[devonexpress]

Given that train companies such as GWR will try when possible to upgrade disabled passengers to First Class(people with crutches or who need the extra room) then I don't think so. Given that the government spends lots of money on "Mobility" cars for people who are disabled.

At the end of the day pensioners can get a railcard for £30 and use that anyway, and as for the ones who moan about not being able to afford this & that, well they should have saved up more when they where working and not rely on the state to cover their backsides all the time!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Given that train companies such as GWR will try when possible to upgrade disabled passengers to First Class(people with crutches or who need the extra room) then I don't think so. Given that the government spends lots of money on "Mobility" cars for people who are disabled.
!

the Government spends zero on Motability ...

Please try and ensure you are aware of the facts before engaging in such comment , at the risk you be accused of hate speech on the basis of your ignorance.

 

[ivanhoe]

Anyone put forward a case for Senior Citizens to get free Air Travel on UK Domestic flights?

No but I could put a case for free cigarettes to the over 60's. I may have an ulterior motive but the price of Marlboro Gold is eating into my pension pot.

 

[ExRes]

the Government spends zero on Motability ...

Please try and ensure you are aware of the facts before engaging in such comment , at the risk you be accused of hate speech on the basis of your ignorance.

As the Government 'spends zero on Motability', perhaps you could explain to us how it is actually funded then
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the end of the day pensioners can get a railcard for £30 and use that anyway, and as for the ones who moan about not being able to afford this & that, well they should have saved up more when they where working and not rely on the state to cover their backsides all the time!

Absolutely, pensioners who were in low paid employment should not have spent their income on anything frivolous in order to save up lots of cash and not sponge off the country, I hope all those currently under retirement age are listening carefully to your advice

 

[najaB]

As the Government 'spends zero on Motability', perhaps you could explain to us how it is actually funded then

They're a registered charity so I assume a significant portion of their funding comes from donations and fundraising activities.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Motability is a charity

Motability Ops is company limited by guarantee owned by Motability (the charity) and some of the High St Banks .

Motability leases are paid for by the users of the vehicles using their higher rate mobility component of PIP/DLA or War Pension - if they did not take a motability lease they would instead recieve the cash sum into their bank along with their care component ...

It does not matter if an eligible person has a motability lease or not , the payments made the government would be exactly the same - whether it goes on the lease or is paid as cash (equivalent) into the individuals bank account ...

The fact so many people are so free in their criticism of Motability without realising it makes no difference to the DWP or exchequer in terms of the sums paid out to DLA /PIP/War Pension recipients if they take a motability lease or take the cash money, means that the veracity of their criticism of the scheme needs to be challenged.

Like all the ****e that means Motability cut the list of vehicles right down and some manufacturers left the scheme because the tabloid reading knuckle draggers got all fired up you could get a BMW or a Land Rover on Motability ( with a massive 'advance payment' (AP) - which doesn't have a governmental means of being funded - it has to come from the claimants own income unless there is an overwhelming clinical or welfare need for the AP to be met by Motability's charitable funds or another charitable funding source - typically this was funding MPVs for larger families, 'drive from chair' WAVs with a large AP or funding 4*4s for people who would be able to continue working if they had access to a 'specialised' vehicle - same as access to work have funded major adaptations to LGVs, plant and agri kit to allow people to keep working )


http://www.motability.org.uk/about-charity/?ssSourceSiteId=motability

http://www.motabilityoperations.co.uk/about-us/?ssSourceSiteId=motability
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They're a registered charity so I assume a significant portion of their funding comes from donations and fundraising activities.

the point i am making is that the cost to the govt is the same regardless of whether someone takes a Motability lease or just takes the cash instead ...

motability's USP is the way in which other than for a few city cars whose monthly lease cost is less than HRMC the lease is constructed to match the HRMC payment ... other than that it;s petty much as standard 'just add fuel ' lease with a tolerant attitude to modifications ...

 

[Butts]

No but I could put a case for free cigarettes to the over 60's. I may have an ulterior motive but the price of Marlboro Gold is eating into my pension pot.

Take a trip to Luxembourg and import your own with the applicable rate of duty in the EU Country of purchase paid.

Just over £4 per packet.

Perhaps we should extend the Free Flights to EU destinations to facilitate your tab purchase.

 

[najaB]

the point i am making is that the cost to the govt is the same regardless of whether someone takes a Motability lease or just takes the cash instead

We're not in disagreement here. The question asked was where Motability's money comes from if not through government funding. The lease costs may be indirectly covered by the government via the mechanism you explained above, but a large part of their operational costs are covered by donations.

 

[Robertj21a]

No but I could put a case for free cigarettes to the over 60's. I may have an ulterior motive but the price of Marlboro Gold is eating into my pension pot.

Well, at least there's an easy answer to that problem !

 

[Welshman]

As the Government 'spends zero on Motability', perhaps you could explain to us how it is actually funded then
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Absolutely, pensioners who were in low paid employment should not have spent their income on anything frivolous in order to save up lots of cash and not sponge off the country, I hope all those currently under retirement age are listening carefully to your advice

Spot on! How I now regret spending all that money on loaves of bread.

Seriously, I now worry that with today's interest rates, the little money I did manage to save is disappearing daily.

 

[asylumxl]

I can't help but think of Pastor Martin Niemöller's "First they came for..." poem.

In several decades, when inflation has rendered their pensions worthless and they struggle to get by, I wonder how some of the posters here will feel?

 

[najaB]

In several decades, when inflation has rendered their pensions worthless and they struggle to get by, I wonder how some of the posters here will feel?

Those of us who can't afford the 'euthanasia deferment fee' will be 'taken care of' by the State as always.

 

[ExRes]

Those of us who can't afford the 'euthanasia deferment fee' will be 'taken care of' by the State as always.

I find it a shame that when the 20/30 somethings of today become 60/70 somethings, that I'll be in my special edition 'BabyBoomerGTi' leather bound and jewel encrusted solid oak coffin and won't be around to see how the 20/30 somethings of the 2050s feel about going without and being totally responsible for their old git relatives, heaven forfend, they may even have to shelve gap years and stop producing 4x4s by then

I expect people will be lining up to sue for being mis sold the wrong type of 'euthanasia deferment fee' policies ...........

 

[najaB]

Those of us who can't afford the 'euthanasia deferment fee' will be 'taken care of' by the State as always.

While the dystopian future outlined above may well await me, I'm hopeful (just) that there will be a technological singularity that changes the global economy for the better.

My bet is on ITER demonstrating affordable, sustainable positive (greater than unity) Q-factor. Clean, cheap, near-limitless power changes everything.

 

[asylumxl]

While the dystopian future outlined above may well await me, I'm hopeful (just) that there will be a technological singularity that changes the global economy for the better.

My bet is on ITER demonstrating affordable, sustainable positive (greater than unity) Q-factor. Clean, cheap, near-limitless power changes everything.

Before I actually read your post properly, I thought you were going to suggest giving demonstrations inside the reactor at ITER as a form of euthanasia.