Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

[Robertj21a]

'The age for qualification rises inexorably in line with female state pension age'. Er......NO it doesn't. The age is 60 in London, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and other places (Wales ?, Manchester ?, Liverpool ?).

Are you sure ? - My understanding was that it does indeed rise in line with the female state pension age (in England). The arrangements in London are no different - but there is a *separate* scheme that caters for those at the age of 60.

 

[Railops]

are you deliberately trolling ?

No, I am simply stating a fact that loads of disabled people can easily afford to travel without poorer people having to fund it.

 

[lobby ludd]

Yes, I am sure, I have checked the details today on the relevant websites
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Are you sure ? - My understanding was that it does indeed rise in line with the female state pension age (in England). The arrangements in London are no different - but there is a *separate* scheme that caters for those at the age of 60.

Yes, I am sure. I have checked the details today on the relevant website. The age is 60 in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Merseyside, Greater Manchester and London (and probably other places too).
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The Northern Ireland 'bus pass' by the way, includes free bus and rail travel throughout Northern Ireland AND the Republic of Ireland. So a generous befaction indeed.

 

[Wolfie]

Are you sure ? - My understanding was that it does indeed rise in line with the female state pension age (in England). The arrangements in London are no different - but there is a *separate* scheme that caters for those at the age of 60.

Yes, I am sure. I have checked the details today on the relevant website. The age is 60 in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Merseyside, Greater Manchester and London (and probably other places too).

Actually you are WRONG, at least with respect to London... my last post proved it! The comment from Robert about it being a local scheme before the female state pension age is wholly accurate!

The Northern Ireland 'bus pass' by the way, includes free bus and rail travel throughout Northern Ireland AND the Republic of Ireland. So a generous befaction indeed.

Again you are only partially correct: "As free all Ireland and cross-border travel is only available with a Senior (65+) SmartPass, it may be that you have to wait up to three weeks following your 65th birthday before you can claim this benefit."

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/60senior-smartpass

The NI scheme is a reciprocal agreement with the Republic of Ireland which offers a similar concession to all those who are 66 or older...

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...xtra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes, I am sure, I have checked the details today on the relevant websites
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Yes, I am sure. I have checked the details today on the relevant website. The age is 60 in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Merseyside, Greater Manchester and London (and probably other places too).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Northern Ireland 'bus pass' by the way, includes free bus and rail travel throughout Northern Ireland AND the Republic of Ireland. So a generous befaction indeed.

I've no knowledge of the other countries, as I said I was referring to England. My understanding is that *any* lower age entitlement now that is below the female state pension age must be due to separate, locally funded, arrangements - the London one is most certainly an *additional* facility. The entitlement for the *ENCTS* pass in London does not kick in until the same threshold as per all other English areas. This must also be the case for Manchester, Merseyside etc.
.

 

[Wolfie]

I've no knowledge of the other countries, as I said I was referring to England. My understanding is that *any* lower age entitlement now that is below the female state pension age must be due to separate, locally funded, arrangements - the London one is most certainly an *additional* facility. The entitlement for the *ENCTS* pass in London does not kick in until the same threshold as per all other English areas. This must also be the case for Manchester, Merseyside etc.
.

You are correct.... but some people don't let the facts get in the way of their rant...

 

[Llanigraham]

It does depend on the programming. At work, we issue them nationally, issued with a photo on, and fully programmed smart technology, they cost just over £5 each. Which is why most places charge £5 to replace a lost one.

Suppose it depends on how they are done. Ours were from a .jpeg of the person, added to a business card format and printed onto sheets of suitable specialist plastic card.
Biggest problem was getting the picture from the members!!
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'It is the same (women's pension age) in most places in England'.
Yes, but not in London, Merseyside, or Greater Manchester (all 60).
Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland also all issue passes at 6O (who is paying for this generous treatment of the Celts ?).

Westminster gives the Welsh Assembly an amount for them to see fit to spend as they want, from roads to health to bus passes.
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No, I am simply stating a fact that loads of disabled people can easily afford to travel without poorer people having to fund it.

Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).

I suggest you get your facts straight before you complain.

 

[fowler9]

Why do some people have such a problem giving money to help poor people get something out of life but no problem at all paying money to help rich people get richer?

 

[Railops]

Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).

I suggest you get your facts straight before you complain.

What a complete untruth, you reckon no people classed as poor pay tax ?
Blimey and you tell me to get my facts straight.
If you'd have said it's not only poor people who fund it then that would be correct but to claim that NO poorer people pay tax is simply stupid.

 

[AM9]

In reality, all free and subsidised passes are funded from the public purse. All adults resident in the UK have income tax liabilities according to their income status and rules in place. All persons in the UK have other 'tax' liabilities according to where the property that they inhabit is, their age, health status, products/services they purchase, vehicles they drive etc..
Everybody's tax liability has no relevance as to how travel passes are provided.

 

[HH]

What a complete untruth, you reckon no people classed as poor pay tax ?

He said everyone; I would take everyone to include those who are poor, however you define poor. And everyone pays taxes of one sort or another.

 

[AM9]

What a complete untruth, you reckon no people classed as poor pay tax ?
Blimey and you tell me to get my facts straight.
If you'd have said it's not only poor people who fund it then that would be correct but to claim that NO poorer people pay tax is simply stupid.

Try reading what he said again:

Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).

Don't stop at the first 6 words that you have made bold for the convenience of your argument, he said that "everyone funds it". There, I've put the words in bold so that you can see it.

 

[Railops]

He said everyone; I would take everyone to include those who are poor, however you define poor. And everyone pays taxes of one sort or another.

He said "Poorer people do not fund it" but they do so he's talking rubbish.

What he should have said was poorer people do fund it along with people who aren't poor.
The fact remains - why should someone who isn't well off fund someone to travel around who may well be very well off simply because they happen to be classed as disabled.

 

[Llanigraham]

What a complete untruth, you reckon no people classed as poor pay tax ?
Blimey and you tell me to get my facts straight.
If you'd have said it's not only poor people who fund it then that would be correct but to claim that NO poorer people pay tax is simply stupid.

Again, read what I actually wrote, not what you think I did.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

He said "Poorer people do not fund it" but they do so he's talking rubbish.

What he should have said was poorer people do fund it along with people who aren't poor.
The fact remains - why should someone who isn't well off fund someone to travel around who may well be very well off simply because they happen to be classed as disabled.

Wrong.
You have taken 6 words out of context and totally ignored the following words.
I said:
"Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).
Note the words in RED!!
I shall await your apology

 

[6Gman]

Why do some people have such a problem giving money to help poor people get something out of life but no problem at all paying money to help rich people get richer?

But a universal benefit for disabled & OAPs doesn't help "poor people" - it is universal!

 

[urbophile]

And so it should be. Don't forget that disabled people have usually got higher living costs than non-disabled, however wealthy they may be. We don't (so far, in this country, but I'm not hopeful about the future) refuse to fund someone's essential operation because they could afford to pay for it. This is the same principle.

The Trumpification of Britain must not be allowed to happen.

 

[fowler9]

But a universal benefit for disabled & OAPs doesn't help "poor people" - it is universal!

People who are disabled in general claim more than those that aren't. I don't have a problem with this. Throw something at me that proves me wrong. Most disabled people can't be arsed claiming for anything for example. If you are claiming it is generally because you need a top up to live, not for a laugh.

 

[Railops]

Again, read what I actually wrote, not what you think I did.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Wrong.
You have taken 6 words out of context and totally ignored the following words.
I said:
"Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).
Note the words in RED!!
I shall await your apology

What you should have said was - "Poorer people aren't the only ones who fund it as everyone does" which is correct.
You'll get no apology from me as you're the one who has made the error.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

What a complete untruth, you reckon no people classed as poor pay tax ?
Blimey and you tell me to get my facts straight.
If you'd have said it's not only poor people who fund it then that would be correct but to claim that NO poorer people pay tax is simply stupid.

assuming 7.20 over 25 rather of minimum wage and a standard 1100l tax code


"Earn £14,040 in 2016/2017 and you'll take home £12,714. This means £1,060 in your pocket a month.

Over the year you'll pay £608 income tax and £718 in National Insurance."

someone working an average of 29 hours a week at the NMW would pay no income tax on the 7.20 rate ...

 

[AM9]

What you should have said was - "Poorer people aren't the only ones who fund it as everyone does" which is correct.
You'll get no apology from me as you're the one who has made the error.

What you should do is contribute to this serious discussion and stop being obtuse. Alternatively, if you want to score some points from something that everybody else here understood, even if they didn't agree withit, go ahead and we can just ignore your unhelpful posts.

 

[Llanigraham]

What you should have said was - "Poorer people aren't the only ones who fund it as everyone does" which is correct.
You'll get no apology from me as you're the one who has made the error.

Which is what I did say, but you refuse to see it!
See the red words below:

""Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).""

 

[Johnuk123]

What you should do is contribute to this serious discussion and stop being obtuse. Alternatively, if you want to score some points from something that everybody else here understood, even if they didn't agree withit, go ahead and we can just ignore your unhelpful posts.

You don't talk for me whatsoever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

""Poorer people do not fund it. It is funded out of taxation. Therefore everyone funds it, including disabled people who work and have a discount card (including me).""

Reading that makes no sense.

 

[6Gman]

People who are disabled in general claim more than those that aren't. I don't have a problem with this. Throw something at me that proves me wrong. Most disabled people can't be arsed claiming for anything for example. If you are claiming it is generally because you need a top up to live, not for a laugh.

Not sure what point you're making here since you seem to make two contradictory statements as highlighted. At a time when public spending is under pressure extending free travel to allow people to travel from (e.g.) Birmingham to York for free doesn't seem a priority.

Much earlier in this thread I posed a number of questions - how much would it cost? - is it the best use of that amount of money?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And so it should be. Don't forget that disabled people have usually got higher living costs than non-disabled, however wealthy they may be. We don't (so far, in this country, but I'm not hopeful about the future) refuse to fund someone's essential operation because they could afford to pay for it. This is the same principle.

The Trumpification of Britain must not be allowed to happen.

But it's not the same principle! An essential operation (by which I assume you mean surgery) is ... essential. Is free travel essential? Or just nice?

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, yes they do, as you can see by the long lines of twirlies in York and Middlesbrough waiting for the buses to the seaside on a nice summer day. Coastliner and Arriva carry hundreds of people on their buses, most of whom haven't paid. I've been the only one on the X93 to have bought a ticket before now.

By your logic, and assuming your experience is representative (did you have full sight of the ticket machine for the whole journey?) then the service would be unremunerative without the payout from whichever council(s) for the pass use, so would cease to exist assuming they are operated commercially. Of course, it is just possible that some of those twirlies were 'having a day out' in the sense of going to a hospital/doctor/dentist appointment. or hospital visiting, rather than choosing to eat fish and chips at an inflated price on a windswept pier or promenade. I am sure the occasional 'jolly' takes place, but I'd suggest that few elderly people consider bus travel so comfortable that they'd wish to spend much more time on them than necessary, and you can count on the fingers of one hand in any district the few foolhardy ones who are in thrall to the magic of buses.

 

[christhebull]

I suspect that for quite a few disabled people, free train travel would be of little use to them if their local station doesn't have level access, which in my estimation is still quite a large proportion of them in suburban areas where which many people need to travel from. For example, it's possible to get from (eg) Clapham Junction to Esher by wheelchair, but a return journey means going towards Woking and doubling back. And this is a relatively easy station to rectify (you wouldn't even need ramps on the footbridge, as a ramp from the road underbridge to platform 1 would suffice).

 

[gray1404]

I would say that yes, disabled people should get free travel. However, I do not see any proposed plans for the government to introduce this (or any proposal from the opposition) sadly.

 

[The Ham]

I suspect that for quite a few disabled people, free train travel would be of little use to them if their local station doesn't have level access, which in my estimation is still quite a large proportion of them in suburban areas where which many people need to travel from. For example, it's possible to get from (eg) Clapham Junction to Esher by wheelchair, but a return journey means going towards Woking and doubling back. And this is a relatively easy station to rectify (you wouldn't even need ramps on the footbridge, as a ramp from the road underbridge to platform 1 would suffice).

I could see a much more useful and cheaper benefit would be to allow disabled people to travel for free over lines which are needed so they can use the required facilities.

In the example above, they would be given free travel from Esher to Woking and back again to enable then to undertake their journey, they would still have to buy a ticket for the Clapham Junction to Esher (with whatever discounts they are entitled to).

Yes , there would be some who took advantage of the situation. However, it would really only be leveling the playing field to what people with no mobility issues would have, in some cases it may even asked them to get somewhere faster, which will offset the times that they would often need to take.

 

[Robertj21a]

By your logic, and assuming your experience is representative (did you have full sight of the ticket machine for the whole journey?) then the service would be unremunerative without the payout from whichever council(s) for the pass use, so would cease to exist assuming they are operated commercially. Of course, it is just possible that some of those twirlies were 'having a day out' in the sense of going to a hospital/doctor/dentist appointment. or hospital visiting, rather than choosing to eat fish and chips at an inflated price on a windswept pier or promenade. I am sure the occasional 'jolly' takes place, but I'd suggest that few elderly people consider bus travel so comfortable that they'd wish to spend much more time on them than necessary, and you can count on the fingers of one hand in any district the few foolhardy ones who are in thrall to the magic of buses.

The X93 Whitby example used is very likely to carry a high proportion of 'Twirlies' (ENCTS holders) on their days out from the Teesside area to the coast. Yorkshire Coastliner to Scarborough etc is much the same. Brighton & Hove have had the same problem with their 12 from Brighton to Eastbourne ever since the passes were introduced. I doubt that many people object to all the extra use, it's the lack of proper remuneration to the operator that needs to be sorted out.

 

[AlterEgo]

And so it should be. Don't forget that disabled people have usually got higher living costs than non-disabled, however wealthy they may be. We don't (so far, in this country, but I'm not hopeful about the future) refuse to fund someone's essential operation because they could afford to pay for it. This is the same principle.

The Trumpification of Britain must not be allowed to happen.

In which case I look forward to my free travel card, so I can get to Heathrow at no cost to catch my First Class flight to Singapore.

 

[urbophile]

But it's not the same principle! An essential operation (by which I assume you mean surgery) is ... essential. Is free travel essential? Or just nice?

Point taken. Though there are many journeys which could be seen as essential: family crisis for example. And someone who is in financial need should arguably be allowed to make them.

This is all getting off the point anyway. As has been pointed out, rail travel is out of the question for many disabled people anyway, as also many older people who are too infirm to travel. So it would be a marginal cost to provide it.

What is needed is a consistent policy across the country: why should London and Merseyside be among the few areas which allow free train as well as bus travel?