Should more trains have pickup/set-down only stops?

[amahy]

In light of the recent additional boarding restrictions at Stevenage, and from experience, I was wondering what other services should have boarding restrictions at certain stations.

One I would advocate for is Transport for Wales’ Holyhead/Aberystwyth to Birmingham service to be set-down only at Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, Birmingham NS, and Birmingham International (and pickup only going the other way).

The service is so frequently short formed (and has been since ATW days), that it’s ridiculous for local West Midlands passengers to be taking up the space of longer distance passengers going between the West Midlands and Holyhead/Aberystwyth/Pwllheli, all of which have far fewer services than between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

One time, when a 2 car 158 turned up on a peak time Birmingham to Holyhead service, the overcrowding was so bad, that the guard was begging over the PA for local passengers to board other services and save space for Telford - Holyhead passengers.

Are there any other boarding restrictions people think should be imposed?

 

[Bald Rick]

In light of the recent additional boarding restrictions at Stevenage, and from past experience, I was wondering what other services should have boarding restrictions at certain stations.

One I would advocate for is Transport for Wales’ Holyhead/Aberystwyth to Birmingham service to be set-down only at Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, Birmingham NS, and Birmingham International (and pickup only going the other way). The service is so frequently short formed (and has been since ATW days), that it’s ridiculous for local West Midlands passengers to be taking up the space of longer distance passengers going between the West Midlands and Holyhead/Aberystwyth/Pwllheli, all of which have far less services than between Birmingham and Wolverhampton. One time, when a 2 car 158 turned up on a peak time Birmingham to Holyhead service, the overcrowding was so bad, that the guard was begging over the PA for local passengers to board other services and save space for Telford - Holyhead passengers.

Are there any other boarding restrictions people think should be imposed?

Without open stops in the West Mids I don’t suppose those trains would actually run, at least not at the current frequency. Those stops pay the bills!

 

[Kite159]

Pick up only at Woking would be nice to have on the West of England line services out of Waterloo to reduce overcrowding on those services which are a single 3 coach train

 

[stevieinselby]

The problem is that with open platforms, it's going to be hard to enforce any boarding restrictions, and unless there are frequent local trains then lots of people will just ignore the restriction.

If you try to enforce it on the train then, given the fairly short journey time in most cases, you only need one or two awkward customers, and they'll tie you up for the whole journey meaning that you would need an army of RPIs to tackle any significant number of people dodging the rules.

 

[amahy]

Without open stops in the West Mids I don’t suppose those trains would actually run, at least not at the current frequency. Those stops pay the bills!

The service is very well used beyond Wolverhampton to Telford, Wellington, and Shrewsbury. Telford especially often has enough passengers to fill one carriage in itself! The service is often full and standing, leaving people behind.

The problem is that with open platforms, it's going to be hard to enforce any boarding restrictions, and unless there are frequent local trains then lots of people will just ignore the restriction.
If you try to enforce it on the train then, given the fairly short journey time in most cases, you only need one or two awkward customers and they'll tie you up for the whole journey meaning that you would need an army of RPIs to tackle any significant number of people dodging the rules.

There are armies of RPIs for revenue protection anyway, so I’m not sure why they can’t enforce boarding restrictions as well as fining fare dodgers.

 

[stevieinselby]

There are armies of RPIs for revenue protection anyway, so I’m not sure why they can’t enforce boarding restrictions as well as fining fare dodgers.

I'm struggling to see the relevant section in the NR conditions of carriage.

The only reference to pick-up/set-down is in relation to split tickets, where they specify that you can't use a pick-up/set-down station as the changeover station, but as far as I can see it doesn't explicitly say that your ticket is invalid if you board at a set-down station or alight at a pick-up station.

It isn't a time-based restriction like off-peak tickets. Are restrictions actually enforceable if people are travelling within a route and timeframe otherwise allowed by their ticket?

 

[Russel]

In light of the recent additional boarding restrictions at Stevenage, and from experience, I was wondering what other services should have boarding restrictions at certain stations.

One I would advocate for is Transport for Wales’ Holyhead/Aberystwyth to Birmingham service to be set-down only at Wolverhampton, Sandwell and Dudley, Birmingham NS, and Birmingham International (and pickup only going the other way).

The service is so frequently short formed (and has been since ATW days), that it’s ridiculous for local West Midlands passengers to be taking up the space of longer distance passengers going between the West Midlands and Holyhead/Aberystwyth/Pwllheli, all of which have far fewer services than between Birmingham and Wolverhampton.

One time, when a 2 car 158 turned up on a peak time Birmingham to Holyhead service, the overcrowding was so bad, that the guard was begging over the PA for local passengers to board other services and save space for Telford - Holyhead passengers.

Are there any other boarding restrictions people think should be imposed?

I'm struggling to see how, realistically, these restrictions could be enforced?

 

[amahy]

I'm struggling to see how, realistically, these restrictions could be enforced?

Even if they can’t be enforced, you need to be “in the know” to know about it, if the train isn’t displayed on departure boards, which would certainly do something to reduce overcrowding on 2 car 158s (even 4 cars are sometimes overcrowded) through the West Midlands.

Boarding restrictions have already been successfully imposed by other TOCs on other routes where overcrowding was less of an issue than on TfW’s Birmingham services (such as calls at Motherwell by Avanti, which you could argue are more difficult to enforce due to the longer train length), so why can’t TfW do the same?

 

[fandroid]

Pick up only at Woking would be nice to have on the West of England line services out of Waterloo to reduce overcrowding on those services which are a single 3 coach train

There's a fairly obvious answer to that one! Double up the units and detach one at Salisbury, if any part of the train is actually going further.

Before Covid, I always looked with horror at any train leaving Waterloo with fewer than six coaches.

It's routine to split at Salisbury now, so the same could apply for all trains. Waterloo-Woking probably has adequate services without the West of England ones, but keeping things simple for passengers should always be a basic principle for public transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm struggling to see how, realistically, these restrictions could be enforced?

They don't necessarily need to be. Most people would for instance see a train at Paddington not shown as stopping at Reading and assume it doesn't stop at Reading, and they won't be able to buy a ticket with an itinerary on that train. They won't go digging into the likes of Realtime Trains to see if it does in fact stop at Reading.

There are a few reasons for doing pick up only/set down only stops. One of them is to avoid serious overcrowding of IC services with commuters and the related issues with seat availability and even ability to board at all if it's a 5 car in the evening peak.

The other one is to allow trains to proceed early if they arrive somewhere like Stockport bound for Piccadilly early so they're not sat there blocking a platform waiting time (this also happens at certain times of day at Milton Keynes where a train booked to run via Northampton instead runs via Weedon and ends up sat there for 20 minutes waiting time).

In neither of these cases does it matter if the odd person boards anyway, and having "shouty men" go through dragging them out onto the platform as sometimes happens at Watford Junction doesn't really do the railway any favours.

The third reason, the idea that the InterCity TOC doesn't get a share of fares from Watford to Euston and so doesn't want to carry the passengers for free, doesn't matter once GBR is running everything.

 

[Russel]

They don't necessarily need to be. Most people would for instance see a train at Paddington not shown as stopping at Reading and assume it doesn't stop at Reading, and they won't be able to buy a ticket with an itinerary on that train. They won't go digging into the likes of Realtime Trains to see if it does in fact stop at Reading.

There are a few reasons for doing pick up only/set down only stops. One of them is to avoid serious overcrowding of IC services with commuters and the related issues with seat availability and even ability to board at all if it's a 5 car in the evening peak. The other one is to allow trains to proceed early if they arrive somewhere like Stockport bound for Piccadilly early so they're not sat there blocking a platform waiting time (this also happens at certain times of day at Milton Keynes where a train booked to run via Northampton instead runs via Weedon and ends up sat there for 20 minutes waiting time). In neither of these cases does it matter if the odd person boards anyway, and having "shouty men" go through dragging them out onto the platform as sometimes happens at Watford Junction doesn't really do the railway any favours.

The third reason, the idea that the InterCity TOC doesn't get a share of fares from Watford to Euston and so doesn't want to carry the passengers for free, doesn't matter once GBR is running everything.

I agree to an extent, but, if for example, XC and TFW decided to become set down/pick up at Wolverhampton, it may dissuade a certain percentage of people from boarding, but many regular commuters are going to know the score and still board knowing it's going to be a quieter train.

 

[amahy]

I agree to an extent, but, if for example, XC and TFW decided to become set down/pick up at Wolverhampton, it may dissuade a certain percentage of people from boarding, but many regular commuters are going to know the score and still board knowing it's going to be a quieter train.

But they wouldn’t become quieter trains than Avanti/West Midlands services. TfW and XC are some of the most overcrowded train operators, especially when a 2 car 158 or 4 car 220 turns up!

 

[Merle Haggard]

According to National Rail Enquiries Service the local authority sells a 'Day Ranger' ticket for £8.80 which is valid on bus tram and train after 09.30.
It is likely that many train passengers on the Coventry to Wolverhampton axis are using this ticket. It';s low price has also had an effect on rail-only fares. One can easily find an advance rail fare for Birmingham International to Wolverhampton for £3.30.

Although the trains are very full one wonders what settlement is in place between the railway and the Authority for each passenger.

I find it hard to understand how even a (comparatively - it's only Cl 158s) large number of passengers at, say, £3.30 can drastically affect the economics of the long distance Transport for Wales services to the extent of supporting the present headway

 

[yorkie]

Are restrictions actually enforceable if people are travelling within a route and timeframe otherwise allowed by their ticket?

Not legally, no.

Such restrictions are not enforced on sensible non-draconian TOCs, such as Greater Anglia and SWR.

If you board an ex-Norwich train at Stratford, no-one will bat an eyelid.

 

[Russel]

But they wouldn’t become quieter trains than Avanti/West Midlands services. TfW and XC are some of the most overcrowded train operators, especially when a 2 car 158 or 4 car 220 turns up!

No they wouldn't, you're right, but still, any regular commuter that knows that the XC/TFW do actually stop at Wolverhampton, despite it being omitted, are likely to get on, if it's the first train to turn up.

 

[amahy]

No they wouldn't, you're right, but still, any regular commuter that knows that the XC/TFW do actually stop at Wolverhampton, despite it being omitted, are likely to get on, if it's the first train to turn up.

It’s highly unlikely that the TfW would be the first train to turn up, as it’s only 1tph. Also, if the train is full, no one is going to get on anyway!

 

[Russel]

It’s highly unlikely that the TfW would be the first train to turn up, as it’s only 1tph. Also, if the train is full, no one is going to get on anyway!

It still happens once an hour though, plus 2 XC an hour!

I'm not really sure which side of the argument you're on here.

Either way, it's unlikely anything will change.

 

[stevieinselby]

It’s highly unlikely that the TfW would be the first train to turn up, as it’s only 1tph. Also, if the train is full, no one is going to get on anyway!

That's less of a problem inbound, where all passengers from the outer end of the route are already on board – but it can be a problem outbound, where you could find Wolverhampton passengers crowding on first and then there not being space for passengers for Shrewsbury and beyond.

 

[amahy]

It still happens once an hour though, plus 2 XC an hour!

I'm not really sure which side of the argument you're on here.

Either way, it's unlikely anything will change.

I’m on the side of the argument that local West Midlands passengers shouldn’t be taking up space on overcrowded 2 car TfW services when there are plenty of other local services which are half full for most of the day.

That's less of a problem inbound, where all passengers from the outer end of the route are already on board – but it can be a problem outbound, where you could find Wolverhampton passengers crowding on first and then there not being space for passengers for Shrewsbury and beyond.

I agree with you here, but there’s still no need for Wolverhampton and Sandwell and Dudley to Birmingham passengers to use the TfW, when there are other services which are much quieter.

 

[Russel]

I’m on the side of the argument that local West Midlands passengers shouldn’t be taking up space on overcrowded 2 car TfW services when there are plenty of other local services which are half full for most of the day.

Ah, I agree, fully.

But, reality is, it's what happens on a daily basis and regular commuters know what train stops where and most will board the first that turns up, if that is the 2 car TFW then that's what they'll board.

Without any set down/pick up restrictions being enforced, which would be difficult at best, I'm not convinced anything can or will change.

Unless something is enforced, you'll just be introducing another layer of complexity that achieves very little.

 

[Tetchytyke]

No they wouldn't, you're right, but still, any regular commuter that knows that the XC/TFW do actually stop at Wolverhampton, despite it being omitted, are likely to get on, if it's the first train to turn up.

I'd be prepared to bet one shiny Manx Pound that most commuters, even regular ones, would not board a train if the station announcements did not say it was calling at a station. Some will, of course they will (as we see at Reading) but most will not do. Even at somewhere like Stratford, where Greater Anglia (rightly) make absolutely no effort to stop people boarding, you'll only see a handful of people using the Norwich trains between Stratford and Liverpool St.

At New St, the TFW and XC services shouldn't be announced as calling at Sandwell & Dudley and Wolverhampton.