Should minimum interchange times be adjusted?

[adrock1976]

Basing the following interchange times as indicated in the famous Table 51 (Crosscountry), I have noticed some which have always had the same amount of time (since I purchased the GB Passenger Timetable big book in 1988), a couple that do not make sense, and one where the interchange time has been reduced.

For example, Edinburgh Waverley, Newcastle, Carlisle, York, Bristol Temple Meads, Cardiff Central, Wolverhampton, Exeter St Davids, Derby, Nottingham have had their minimum interchange times barely unchanged. Leeds has remained at 10 minutes despite having had extra platforms built (and maybe more for the eastern arm of HS2 as it seems the New Lane HS2 site will not go ahead) and could do with a slight increase.

Both Wakefield Westgate and Darlington (both 7 minutes) I cannot make sense of, as Westgate would be the same platform to/from Outwood, or over the footbridge between the platforms if changing between stations to/from Doncaster and the Dearne Valley. Darlington is a large island platform that has two York facing bays.

Birmingham New Street has a minimum interchange time of 12 minutes, which it used to be 15 and could do with reverting back to 15 minutes being as there are separate automatic gatelines at the A end of the platforms (facing Derby and London).

I have noted the row for Cheltenham Spa has in the black box next to it a minimum interchange time of 5 minutes (the standard default). I am unsure if this is an error or not, or whether it was greater than 5 minutes at one time and has been reduced, which would make the black box meaningless now.

Outside of Table 51 and moving on to Cross London journeys involving the Underground, I can remember the minimum interchange time being 60 minutes, which is handy if when the Underground is busy and letting a train go, it is still sufficient time to get between the London Terminals. Nowadays, depending upon which terminals passengers are using the Underground to transfer between, there are a wide range of differing times with some being 53 minutes, 25 minutes, 32 minutes, etc. Ideally, this should revert back to the standard 60 minutes, as it is easier to remember.

Are there any other minimum interchange times that could do with being revised to take account of additional platforms, rebuilt stations, and transferring between stations?

Also, does any of the timetable planners do an audit of the minimum interchange times on a periodic basis, or are they more or less set in stone?

 

[SargeNpton]

The default advice of allowing 60 minutes to get across London was abandoned many years ago; probably when internet journey planners became widely accessible. It's really silly to say that, for example, a Euston-St Pancras connection would take the same amount of time as a connection from Euston to Fenchurch Street.

 

[Ianno87]

Did Reading's minimum interchange time ever get revised to reflect it's quite hefty expansion?

Also Stevenage, to reflect Platform 5 which is more awkward to reach than the other platforms.

 

[adrock1976]

Did Reading's minimum interchange time ever get revised to reflect it's quite hefty expansion?

Also Stevenage, to reflect Platform 5 which is more awkward to reach than the other platforms.

Regarding Reading, it still remains at 7 minutes.

With the new platform at Stevenage, it could do with a slight increase so as to reflect the extra distance to transfer to/from the island platforms if it has not already done so.

 

[Horizon22]

Did Reading's minimum interchange time ever get revised to reflect it's quite hefty expansion?

Also Stevenage, to reflect Platform 5 which is more awkward to reach than the other platforms.

Reading appears to be 7 minutes: https://www.brtimes.com/!board?stn=RDG&date=20210315 Not easy for even a relatively fit person from the L/E of P4-6 to Platform 14/15!

 

[cuccir]

Both Wakefield Westgate and Darlington (both 7 minutes) I cannot make sense of, as Westgate would be the same platform to/from Outwood, or over the footbridge between the platforms if changing between stations to/from Doncaster and the Dearne Valley. Darlington is a large island platform that has two York facing bays.

Busses to Catterick are timetabled as a rail service - if you look at National Rail Enquiries you'll find it in there, and you can buy fares to Catterick. Is the interchange time to allow for connections to those?

 

[The Planner]

It isn't a NR led process, TOCs propose the requirements for these. Lots probably stay as they are purely to allow a "connection" to exist. I have no doubt there are many stations where specific platform to platform are in excess of the allowance whereas other platform to platform is nowhere near what is stipulated.

I would wager Nuneaton P1 to 6/7 is a tight 5 minutes. Wolves is 7 minutes which it may be for a P5 to P4. Stourbridge Jn is 2 minutes which is clearly too little. Crewe is 10 which for some moves would be a lot. Earlestown is 8 minutes. Reading is 7 as is Bath, Bristol Parkway, Cardiff, Hereford, Gloucester and Worcester Shrub Hill/Foregate St. Dovey Jn is 4. Luton is 10 between EMR and Thameslink, Bedford is 7. I expect people could find many more which you can question.

 

[306024]

Thorpe-le-Soken should win the award for minimum connection time. 1 minute (Up Walton train connecting into an up Clacton train). Any others like that elsewhere?

 

[Watershed]

Thorpe-le-Soken should win the award for minimum connection time. 1 minute (Up Walton train connecting into an up Clacton train). Any others like that elsewhere?

I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but High Wycombe - also 1 minute. Obviously intended to allow a northbound connection off ex-London terminators arriving in bay platform 1, that have a public differential between the working and public TT arrival times.

However, there are a number of journeys where the skip stopping nature of the Chiltern timetable means that a change at High Wycombe - between through platforms 2 and 3 - is the fastest route.

For those not in the know, those platforms are staggered, with a lengthy footbridge walk in between the two, and so you'd have no chance whatsoever of making a 1 minute connection if you didn't position yourself at the closest door to the footbridge. That of course also varies depending on the formation of the train!

Even with perfect punctuality and positioning, you're likely to miss such a connection 9 times out of 10, as doors close up to 30 seconds before the booked departure time.

 

[The Planner]

Kettering clearly has been looked at properly with 4 up and 5 down. Eastleigh, Bournemouth and Brockenhurst are 3.
Yeovil is the only one I know of that has a documented time between two stations, 60 minutes between Junction and Pen Mill.

 

[Bigman]

I agree about Leeds. if you come in on Platform 12D, it is quite a trek over to Platform 0 for a Harrogate service.

 

[adrock1976]

Kettering clearly has been looked at properly with 4 up and 5 down. Eastleigh, Bournemouth and Brockenhurst are 3.
Yeovil is the only one I know of that has a documented time between two stations, 60 minutes between Junction and Pen Mill.

I seem to remember that the GBPTT book had at near the end maps of some towns that had two stations that shown the walking route between them.

I can recall both Gainsborough stations and both Coatbridge stations having that (for both Coatbridge stations, I think it was 25 minutes, but there was no rush on a Sunday as Coatbridge Central had (and still does to this day) "No Sunday Service".

Also, both Warrington stations (Central and Bank Quay) also featured as well.

 

[YorksLad12]

Both Wakefield Westgate and Darlington (both 7 minutes) I cannot make sense of, as Westgate would be the same platform to/from Outwood, or over the footbridge between the platforms if changing between stations to/from Doncaster and the Dearne Valley. Darlington is a large island platform that has two York facing bays.

It depends too on where your train stops and the length. Seven minutes from the southern end of the northbound platform to the northern end of the southbound platform sounds about right.

I agree about Leeds. if you come in on Platform 12D, it is quite a trek over to Platform 0 for a Harrogate service.

Or 16A. Or 17A to 7A. With the one-way system in operation, anyone arriving on 0C from Horsforth and wanting to go to 17A for Castleford would have to walk almost the whole perimeter of the station! I could do it in 10 minutes, but I wouldn't be happy about it. If the times are based on the time it takes someone with mobility issues to get around the station, one hopes the time taken for the incredibly slow lifts to drop you down or take you up are included...

 

[MikeWM]

Cambridge doesn't appear to have ever been altered to reflect the island platforms 7/8.

Given where they built the bridge, you'd have to be very fast to have any chance of getting from the London end of 7/8 to a departure off platforms 2 or 3 within 5 minutes.

 

[Ianno87]

Cambridge doesn't appear to have ever been altered to reflect the island platforms 7/8.

Given where they built the bridge, you'd have to be very fast to have any chance of getting from the London end of 7/8 to a departure off platforms 2 or 3 within 5 minutes.

Although it's a case where it's rarely an issue in practice with how the timetable falls. e.g. in the standard hour Platform 2/3 are used by the xx27/57 Kings Cross stopper departures, whilst the last 7/8 arrivals before these are xx19 (from Cambridge North) and xx37 (from King's Lynn)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

An interesting point is should station interchange times be inflated by whatever the policy is for shutting doors in advance of departure time.

So if at station X the policy is doors close 2 minutes beforehand the minimum interchange time is increased by that?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Kettering clearly has been looked at properly with 4 up and 5 down.

Actually, I find this puzzling.
At the moment, almost the only connection at Kettering is between trains to/from the Leicester direction and ones to/from Corby. Usually, changing from a train from Leicester is cross platform (the plat 2/3 island) but from an incoming Corby to a departing Leicester is via the footbridge at the south end.
I wonder what's meant by an 'up' connection. It could be changing from a (up) Corby - Kettering train to a (down) Kettering - Leicester, or changing from an (up) Leicester - Kettering one to a (down) Corby one.
(I've used 'Leicester' to mean any train from/to that direction)

Of course, it will have to be looked at when the volume and cause of Kettering changes will increase considerably in May...

 

[g22]

Mon-Fri in the new May 21 Timetable at Kettering there is a 2239 Inter City arrival from Nottingham and a 2243 Electrics departure to Wellingborough, Bedford , Luton etc. I cannot get a Journey Planner to accept this 4 minute connection at Kettering in the up direction. I had always presumed it was 5 minutes minimum at Kettering so the timing of these trains is odd unless they deliberately want to avoid a valid connection or maybe it is going to be changed to 4 minutes connection time in the up direction?

 

[ainsworth74]

Outside of Table 51 and moving on to Cross London journeys involving the Underground, I can remember the minimum interchange time being 60 minutes, which is handy if when the Underground is busy and letting a train go, it is still sufficient time to get between the London Terminals. Nowadays, depending upon which terminals passengers are using the Underground to transfer between, there are a wide range of differing times with some being 53 minutes, 25 minutes, 32 minutes, etc. Ideally, this should revert back to the standard 60 minutes, as it is easier to remember.

Sounds like a terrible idea to me which would needlessly extend a number of journey times for no reason other than the 'convenience' of remembering a minimum interchange time. Considering the overwhelming majority of passengers will either use electronic journey planners which are more than capable of offering compliant itineraries with complex minimum interchange times this would seem like a massive backwards step!

Darlington is a large island platform that has two York facing bays.

Seven minutes is sufficient apart from some edge cases. If you arrive in coach B on an LNER service going northbound and want to change onto a branch line service and either have luggage, reduced mobility, granny or small child (or some mixture of all of the above) then seven minutes might be somewhat tight but I'd think for a sold 99% of users seven minutes is a perfectly reasonable time to allow (I wouldn't want to reduce it however).

 

[SargeNpton]

Kettering clearly has been looked at properly with 4 up and 5 down. Eastleigh, Bournemouth and Brockenhurst are 3.
Yeovil is the only one I know of that has a documented time between two stations, 60 minutes between Junction and Pen Mill.

Network Rail may be inputting variable connectional allowances for Up and Down services, but those differentials cannot currently be handled by the public-facing journey planners. For passenger enquiries then it will still be 5 minutes regardless of the direction.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Mon-Fri in the new May 21 Timetable at Kettering there is a 2239 Inter City arrival from Nottingham and a 2243 Electrics departure to Wellingborough, Bedford , Luton etc. I cannot get a Journey Planner to accept this 4 minute connection at Kettering in the up direction. I had always presumed it was 5 minutes minimum at Kettering so the timing of these trains is odd unless they deliberately want to avoid a valid connection or maybe it is going to be changed to 4 minutes connection time in the up direction?

Further discussion should really be in the thread for the New Corby Electrics services, but the 2243 is the last Up service. NRES gives a itinerary from Nottingham to connect into it as one giving a wait at Kettering of 57 minutes. Not the best way to fill those 8 and 12 car trains

 

[g22]

Further discussion should really be in the thread for the New Corby Electrics services, but the 2243 is the last Up service. NRES gives a itinerary from Nottingham to connect into it as one giving a wait at Kettering of 57 minutes. Not the best way to fill those 8 and 12 car trains

I was only responding to a mention up thread about a 4 minute connection time at Kettering. I may have missed the further conversation on the other thread you refer to, therefore if mods want to move these posts there they can.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I was only responding to a mention up thread about a 4 minute connection time at Kettering. I had missed the further conversation on the other thread you mention, therefore if mods want to move these posts there they can.

Sorry. didn't mean it as a criticism of your post which was perfectly valid. Just shows how easy it is to veer off topic by following a logical progression!

 

[The Planner]

Network Rail may be inputting variable connectional allowances for Up and Down services, but those differentials cannot currently be handled by the public-facing journey planners. For passenger enquiries then it will still be 5 minutes regardless of the direction.

Point of order, Network Rail will be inputting allowances based on what the TOCs request.

 

[SargeNpton]

Point of order, Network Rail will be inputting allowances based on what the TOCs request.

Is there any other example of a differential connectional allowance based on direction? If Kettering is the first example of this then how widely has it been advised?

 

[The Planner]

Is there any other example of a differential connectional allowance based on direction? If Kettering is the first example of this then how widely has it been advised?

Luton and Airport Pwy have separate ones based on TOC as does Par on the Western. No idea on how they are advised, as I say, its a TOC led value.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there any other example of a differential connectional allowance based on direction? If Kettering is the first example of this then how widely has it been advised?

Luton and Airport Pwy have separate ones based on TOC as does Par on the Western. No idea on how they are advised, as I say, its a TOC led value.

Plenty of TOC-specific ones (e.g. Clapham Junction), but not aware of any other direction-specific ones

 

[AndrewE]

It depends too on where your train stops and the length. Seven minutes from the southern end of the northbound platform to the northern end of the southbound platform sounds about right.


Or 16A. Or 17A to 7A. With the one-way system in operation, anyone arriving on 0C from Horsforth and wanting to go to 17A for Castleford would have to walk almost the whole perimeter of the station! I could do it in 10 minutes, but I wouldn't be happy about it. If the times are based on the time it takes someone with mobility issues to get around the station, one hopes the time taken for the incredibly slow lifts to drop you down or take you up are included...

Is there an independant/impartial website which gives good advice on realistic connection times - and where to sit (or move to) on each train for optimum transfers at different stations?

 

[Hadders]

Is there an independant/impartial website which gives good advice on realistic connection times - and where to sit (or move to) on each train for optimum transfers at different stations?

You'd be best asking on this forum for expert advice.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is there an independant/impartial website which gives good advice on realistic connection times - and where to sit (or move to) on each train for optimum transfers at different stations?

Good shout. Sure there used to be something like this for London Underground journeys / interchanges, where alighting from the right carriage (or indeed the right station) at busy times can mean the difference between being the first to the exit, a simple cross platform transfer, or getting stuck at the back of a great big queue or a lengthy walk and having to negotiate numerous flights of steps and/or escalators.