Should minimum connection times take into account which platform?

[Bletchleyite]

From https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-57#post-6943758:

It's a shame the system can't differentiate platforms. To use Manchester Piccadilly as an example, 13/14 to the main station could do with an extra 5 minutes compared to between trainshed platforms (most people won't think of shortcutting via the bridge), while "same platform" on 13 or 14 could easily be 5 minutes total.

I agree. It would be very useful. I appreciate platforms can change but then they can be changed at the last minute any way.

In quite a lot of cases they can't - for instance a Norwich to Liverpool service can't go from any platform at Manchester Picc except 13/14. So there are connections that are absolutely solid - the old example of the stopper vs. the fast at Leighton Buzzard was a good one - only in very severe disruption did that ever miss because of the severe knock-on of letting the stopper out first.

OK, on very, very rare occasions that service would terminate in the main trainshed (I've seen "Liverpool Lime St" on the displays in the trainshed once when they had reallocated it but not put Cancelled up yet) but that's very rare and only when it was so late even a 15 minute connection would have missed anyway.

It's these ones where dropping the minimum connection time would make sense. In that Leighton Buzzard example, 1 minute would be absolutely fine.

 

[Trainbike46]

Absolutely - minimum transfer times should be the lowest reliable connection time available, to ensure journey times of journeys with transfers are competitive. The amount of time it takes to go from one platform to another clearly impacts how long this is.

Thinking of St Pancras:
- a change from one thameslink platform to the same Thameslink platform should have a minimum transfer time of 1 minute, as the later train can't come into the platform until the previous one has left.
- changing from one thameslink platform to another Thameslink platform should allow somewhat more time, taking into account how long it takes to walk between the platforms.
- Changing between EMR/thameslink/SE highspeed should allow longer again as it is further to walk and involves crossing two gatelines - the standard 15 minutes is fine for this.
- changes to/from eurostar are of course a special case

though there is some suggestion in this older thread that, at least sometime, the interchange time at STP does in fact depend on what connection you are making.

St Pancras minimum connection time

I have made National Rail Enquiries producing 11-minute connections between Thameslink trains at St Pancras. The official minimum connection time is 15 minutes and I can't find any exceptions for Thameslink. Why is this legal?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

- a change from one thameslink platform to the same Thameslink platform should have a minimum transfer time of 1 minute, as the later train can't come into the platform until the previous one has left.

It can if the signaller decides to reverse the order of running. During the peak it only takes a few minutes of delay to lose your path. Allowing something like 3 or 4 minutes would seem more sensible to me, as a minimum. We're not talking about a minor branch line where the connecting train can wait!

 

[Trainbike46]

It can if the signaller decides to reverse the order of running. During the peak it only takes a few minutes of delay to lose your path. Allowing something like 3 or 4 minutes would seem more sensible to me, as a minimum. We're not talking about a minor branch line where the connecting train can wait!

it depends on how often the running order is reversed for small delays (under 5 minutes) - if it happends frequently, you're right, but if it is fairly rare, the shorter connection time should be used, because excessively long connection times are bad for passengers and for journey times (and therefore the attractiveness of the railway)

 

[devon_belle]

I think yes, but only if platform staff have the power to hold connecting trains in the event of a platform alteration which extends the connection distance.

 

[Thebaz]

Some route planners seem give you more time than others. When I recently travelled in Europe I had only 6 minutes to get from one side of Linz station to another (with family and heavy luggage in tow) to transfer between the train from Ceske Budejovice to the train to Salzburg.

 

[HSTEd]

This seems pretty unworkable given that it would collapse the second a platform alteration occurred.

And we'd need a huge new apparatus to track platform alterations for revenue purposes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This seems pretty unworkable given that it would collapse the second a platform alteration occurred

Except that if you read my post you'll see that there are certain platform alterations which cannot occur. These are the ones which would be in question here.

There are for example trains at Manchester Piccadilly which can only be Platform 13 or 14.

 

[HSTEd]

Except that if you read my post you'll see that there are certain platform alterations which cannot occur. These are the ones which would be in question here.

There are for example trains at Manchester Piccadilly which can only be Platform 13 or 14.

Ironically in the last six months I've had two trains terminated and moved from Platform 13/14 into the main trainshed!

Such changes do occur and thus we'd still have to track them for revenue purposes.

 

[Hadders]

It’s not done by platform but we do see differences depending on the operator.

For example, at Farringdon Thameslink to Thameslink changes are 3 minutes (St Pancras really ought to have this as well) but Thameslink to Elizabeth Line are 8 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ironically in the last six months I've had two trains terminated and moved from Platform 13/14 into the main trainshed!

Such changes do occur and thus we'd still have to track them for revenue purposes.

I've seen that happen once in my whole life. Rare enough for customer services to be able to deal with claims when it happens rather than needing to complicate the Delay Repay system to automate it.

 

[Trainbike46]

It’s not done by platform but we do see differences depending on the operator.

For example, at Farringdon Thameslink to Thameslink changes are 3 minutes (St Pancras really ought to have this as well) but Thameslink to Elizabeth Line are 8 minutes.

In these examples, these are effectively the same thing, as each operator has its own platforms. At St. Pancras, it would also work as each set of platforms is mostly* a separate operator.

*the complicating factor is of course that Thameslink services sometimes go from the EMR platforms, which may be why they don't do it there?