Should lone passengers leave empty seat pairs free for groups?

[Class800]

Completely agree. You paid your hard earned money for that seat and if the family wanted to sit together they should have paid the extra to pick seats together and if 3 seats next to each other are not available look for flights that do have the desired seat availability.

When I went on holiday as a kid ny parents always paid the extra to ensure we could sit together on the plane.

One time i was travelling in a group of around 8 on a rather busy train. We just sat wherever we could find seats which caused us to be spread out across the train. I would never expect anyone to switch seats to accommodate a group in such a scenario.

I think that companies should be required to seat families together for child protection reasons. But this should be a responsibility on the company not on other passengers. In terms of what I do, I treat it on a case by case basis. I once moved as I knew I would be in a very awkward position otherwise, but that benefitted me as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that companies should be required to seat families together for child protection reasons. But this should be a responsibility on the company not on other passengers. In terms of what I do, I treat it on a case by case basis. I once moved as I knew I would be in a very awkward position otherwise, but that benefitted me as well.

Travelling groups should always be seated together on aircraft, as to do otherwise means that evacuation will be impeded by people potentially going back to find their friends and family and get them off safely. In particular having parents in the exit row and kids behind could be an issue as the people in the exit row need to open it and get out pronto else they impede everyone else. It would be nice if the various authorities would ban the likes of Ryanair from wilfully splitting them up if they don't pay extra.

Trains are a bit different as evacuations work differently. Considering it as a child protection concern is a bit silly as you then get on to having to ban children from travel alone. On a long distance train if you want to be reasonably sure of being together, reserve.

 

[LYuen]

Does anyone think that it is equally 'odd' to sit next to a stranger while double seat is available, to occupying a row in front of a group?
(As both are odd I think both are OK)
It is even a little bit creepy if it is opposite sex.

I would have no guilt taking a row of airline seats to myself. It is a choice between affecting solo traveller and group, so I would choose the most comfortable way.

 

[43066]

Had the woman paid for the extra seat for her handbag?

That’s a separate point.

Can you honestly not see anything wrong with what this guy did?

 

[riceuten]

A colleague was telling me of an experience they had with a family on a train in the West Country. The train was packed, but our eagle-eyed correspondent saw an airline seat and hied himself to it.

"You can't sit there mate" said a man sitting behind him
"Why, is there someone sitting here?" he responded
"No, I just don't want some strange bloke sitting next to my daughter" - he looked at the teenager concerned, who was listening to music
"Why don't one of you sit next to her?" he queried
"She doesn't want to sit with us, and I want to sit next to my wife" he incredulously replied
"Well, I'm sitting here regardless, if you want to swap, let me know, I'm not going to stand for the next hour because of your hysteria" said my colleague

The poor bloke had to sit there whilst he was harrangued and called all sorts of names - you can probably guess what the accusations were...

 

[zwk500]

A colleague was telling me of an experience they had with a family on a train in the West Country. The train was packed, but our eagle-eyed correspondent saw an airline seat and hied himself to it.

"You can't sit there mate" said a man sitting behind him
"Why, is there someone sitting here?" he responded
"No, I just don't want some strange bloke sitting next to my daughter" - he looked at the teenager concerned, who was listening to music
"Why don't one of you sit next to her?" he queried
"She doesn't want to sit with us, and I want to sit next to my wife" he incredulously replied
"Well, I'm sitting here regardless, if you want to swap, let me know, I'm not going to stand for the next hour because of your hysteria" said my colleague

The poor bloke had to sit there whilst he was harrangued and called all sorts of names - you can probably guess what the accusations were...

At any point did either party ask the daughter herself if she was happy for your friend to sit there?

 

[Grumpy Git]

If nothing else, this thread has confirmed that ‘there’s nothing as queer as folk’

 

[Bletchleyite]

At any point did either party ask the daughter herself if she was happy for your friend to sit there?

It's not really relevant whether they are happy or not. If there is an empty seat, someone can sit there. It's public transport, if you're scared of the public it's not for you.

I recall someone being very unhappy about me taking an empty seat, I chose the only one where the person was in the aisle as I wanted the window (all other pairs had at least one person in them), and she was clearly trying to keep it empty, had a massive go about how I was going to cause her to fail her job interview she was going to (I'm not quite sure how) and stormed off into another coach.

(I do agree about not sitting next to someone if there are empty pairs, though there are exceptions - I've narked someone by doing that on boarding at Euston so I could have the priority seat, but I pointed out that as the train would be full and standing by the time it went they would get someone there soon enough, and indeed it was full and standing by departure time).

 

[lachlan]

Does anyone think that it is equally 'odd' to sit next to a stranger while double seat is available, to occupying a row in front of a group?
(As both are odd I think both are OK)
It is even a little bit creepy if it is opposite sex.

I would have no guilt taking a row of airline seats to myself. It is a choice between affecting solo traveller and group, so I would choose the most comfortable way.

Do you mean sitting opposite someone at a table? I don't think it's odd. I tend to prefer the table for long journeys so I can have my laptop, food, and other stuff out.

 

[riceuten]

At any point did either party ask the daughter herself if she was happy for your friend to sit there?

He didn't say, but it's not something anyone should have a choice over, it's not a private vehicle.

 

[zwk500]

It's not really relevant whether they are happy or not. If there is an empty seat, someone can sit there. It's public transport, if you're scared of the public it's not for you.

He didn't say, but it's not something anyone should have a choice over, it's not a private vehicle.

It was more about potentially shutting the father up, as often people are very defensive when the person being defended has no problems with it. A swift 'sorry, this is the last seat' and the girl giving a wave or 'yeah, sure' or something would have been the most likely outcome and may have defused the situation rather than got the father's back up.
I agree that she doesn't get to refuse the seat, especially if it's the last one going.

BIB - There are plenty of reasons why women, particularly young women, may feel very scared of other people on a train and they have no other option but to use public transport. Nor should they be required to use a car (taxis carry a risk as well) because of threatening actions of other people. The fear of sexual assault is not unfounded.

I recall someone being very unhappy about me taking an empty seat, I chose the only one where the person was in the aisle as I wanted the window (all other pairs had at least one person in them), and she was clearly trying to keep it empty, had a massive go about how I was going to cause her to fail her job interview she was going to (I'm not quite sure how) and stormed off into another coach.

You get people sometimes who just can't believe that they might not get their own way. Although the only time I remember somebody outright refusing to move was when an individual had a pushbike in the vestibule of a 350 at MK and the train was rammed (think it may have been 4 cars vice 8 or running late, or both) and he claimed he couldn't lift the bike or remove the front wheel (which had disc brakes and quick-release fixings) to allow people slightly more space. Every other time a short 'sorry, do you mind' has been sufficient (occasionally with a harrumph or sigh) to release a seat. The overwhelming majority of people actively move their bags if they see a train filling up.

 

[bramling]

Very creepy.

If there’s a guard on board it’s worth mentioning something like that to them, just in case.

It doesn’t always have to be nefarious, some people just have a thing about certain seats. Which is fine in itself (I’m a little picky myself as I don’t like aisle seats and hate facing backwards), but such people need to moderate themselves when their favourite seat is already taken. Most do of course, but some have difficulty handling it.

The most extreme form is something like the DLR or Tyne & Wear Metro front seats, especially the latter as there seem to be some older folk who spend all day riding round - or at least they did before Covid, as the front seats went out of use for social distancing and have never been returned to use since.

Having said all that, I remember a weird experience on a 317 when I was a teenager, essentially being chatted up by an old bloke. It didn’t particularly bother me as had he tried anything he’d have come off badly, but I can understand how some would find it unnerving.

 

[Mikey C]

It was more about potentially shutting the father up, as often people are very defensive when the person being defended has no problems with it. A swift 'sorry, this is the last seat' and the girl giving a wave or 'yeah, sure' or something would have been the most likely outcome and may have defused the situation rather than got the father's back up.
I agree that she doesn't get to refuse the seat, especially if it's the last one going.

BIB - There are plenty of reasons why women, particularly young women, may feel very scared of other people on a train and they have no other option but to use public transport. Nor should they be required to use a car (taxis carry a risk as well) because of threatening actions of other people. The fear of sexual assault is not unfounded.

But there's a massive difference (as alluded too by previous comments) between a man sitting next to a young female where there are empty seats, especially double seats elsewhere, and sitting next to the young female because that's the only seat available.

The dear of strange men is real if the train is nearly empty and the man deliberately "gets close", but not on a crowded train where seats are at a premium. That's not threatening behaviour, that's someone legitimately sitting down.

 

[birchesgreen]

But there's a massive difference (as alluded too by previous comments) between a man sitting next to a young female where there are empty seats, especially double seats elsewhere, and sitting next to the young female because that's the only seat available.

And her parents were sat behind her.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The dear of strange men is real if the train is nearly empty and the man deliberately "gets close", but not on a crowded train where seats are at a premium. That's not threatening behaviour, that's someone legitimately sitting down.

Indeed.

Further to the point, if you don't want someone sat in the next seat, on most long distance routes First Class solves that for you.

It is not reasonable to expect someone to stand in preference to taking an available seat when there aren't double seats free of a suitable* type. If anyone must stand, then it's the person unhappy with sitting next to someone who stands. I do understand if someone has had a very bad experience, and that is often more women than men, but in the end some people are just a combination of selfish and scared of their own shadow and I don't see a need to stand to accommodate that.

You can minimise the risk by sitting in a tight-pitch seat with no window facing backwards, if not having someone next to you is important but you can't afford 1st.

* e.g. I will sit next to someone in a priority seat rather than alone in a pair if I know the train will become busy later, as in a normal airline seat on a 350 I can't not take up both seats with my legs.

 

[zwk500]

But there's a massive difference (as alluded too by previous comments) between a man sitting next to a young female where there are empty seats, especially double seats elsewhere, and sitting next to the young female because that's the only seat available.

It is not reasonable to expect someone to stand in preference to taking an available seat when there aren't double seats free of a suitable* type. If anyone must stand, then it's the person unhappy with sitting next to someone who stands. I do understand if someone has had a very bad experience, and that is often more women than men, but in the end some people are just a combination of selfish and scared of their own shadow and I don't see a need to stand to accommodate that.
You can minimise the risk by sitting in a tight-pitch seat with no window facing backwards, if not having someone next to you is important but you can't afford 1st.

I agree with you both on these points. At the end of the day, a seat is for sitting on and if your choice is limited other people don't get to prevent you sitting down.

The dear of strange men is real if the train is nearly empty and the man deliberately "gets close", but not on a crowded train where seats are at a premium. That's not threatening behaviour, that's someone legitimately sitting down.

However, I will say that just because it's legitimate behaviour doesn't make the fear irrational or illegitimate. You shouldn't dismiss somebody else's fears just because you personally wouldn't do anything untoward.

 

[BeijingDave]

Trains are a bit different as evacuations work differently. Considering it as a child protection concern is a bit silly as you then get on to having to ban children from travel alone. On a long distance train if you want to be reasonably sure of being together, reserve.

Indeed, it is taking it a bit far to make it a child protection issue.

Do we really think a child is at serious risk of abuse from a member of the public in a crowded train carriage?

 

[Facing Back]

However, I will say that just because it's legitimate behaviour doesn't make the fear irrational or illegitimate. You shouldn't dismiss somebody else's fears just because you personally wouldn't do anything untoward.

Agreed. Sadly that is the world we live in at the moment.

On the flip side, on 2 occasions over the years, I've had a young woman ask to sit next to me in quite a quiet carriage - I was in an aisle on a table seat on both occasions. 1 time she'd had some comments from some young lads in the vestibule as she boarded and felt a 50 year old in a suit would be a suitable buffer - we had quite a pleasant chat. The other time she had a phobia about travelling backwards and the configuration of the coach was such that most seats did and the ones which didn't were occupied by groups.

There are of course no rights to reserve the seat next to you, luggage can be a problem, but common decency and common sense should sort out most of these problems - there are of course the occasional idiot.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the flip side, on 2 occasions over the years, I've had a young woman ask to sit next to me in quite a quiet carriage - I was in an aisle on a table seat on both occasions. 1 time she'd had some comments from some young lads in the vestibule as she boarded and felt a 50 year old in a suit would be a suitable buffer - we had quite a pleasant chat.

I've had a woman come up to me at Marylebone late at night once and say something like "I don't know you, but do you mind if we have a quick chat so those drunk lads over there leave me alone?" - this is actually fairly terrifying to me as I'm terrible at smalltalk, but I did my best! She got on a different coach when the train arrived (it was a 3-car - she got in one, the lads in another and me in the third one), perhaps she had picked up on me looking scared!

Maybe I just look trustworthy (or just big enough to knock said lads over if they did do anything)

 

[Facing Back]

I've had a woman come up to me at Marylebone late at night once and say something like "I don't know you, but do you mind if we have a quick chat so those drunk lads over there leave me alone?" - this is actually fairly terrifying to me as I'm terrible at smalltalk, but I did my best! She got on a different coach when the train arrived (it was a 3-car - she got in one, the lads in another and me in the third one), perhaps she had picked up on me looking scared!

Maybe I just look trustworthy

Good for you

 

[GodAtum]

I've had some weird behaviour from some passengers. Sitting on a window seat from East Croydon to Clapham, someone sat next to me which is fine. But when I politely asked to get up before my stop, she tutted at me and said you could have sat on the outside

 

[sheff1]

In recent times I have had lone women less than half my age join me at a table on anumber of occasions when there are other seats free. I just assumed they think I looked respectable and 'safe'.

Funny incident though 50 odd years ago, when I probably looked anything but respectable. I had bedded down on one side of a compartment on an overnight train from Hamburg to Frankfurt when, just after departure, the door opened and a German woman of around my age entered and asked "Can I sleep with you ?". Obviously she was referring to the seats opposite and was not aware of the connotations in English .

 

[43096]

I've had a woman come up to me at Marylebone late at night once and say something like "I don't know you, but do you mind if we have a quick chat so those drunk lads over there leave me alone?" - this is actually fairly terrifying to me as I'm terrible at smalltalk, but I did my best! She got on a different coach when the train arrived (it was a 3-car - she got in one, the lads in another and me in the third one), perhaps she had picked up on me looking scared!

Maybe I just look trustworthy (or just big enough to knock said lads over if they did do anything)

Many years ago I was on a rather busy Turbostar between Nottingham and Chesterfield with a couple of friends when a man approached a young woman claiming she was in his seat. The seat was unreserved, but he was claiming he could sit there as he was an enthusiast. We pointed out that as an enthusiast he should know the rules for reserved seats. At this point he suggested the woman could sit on his lap. That prompted me and one of my friends to simultaneously say “You dirty old man!” At that point he moved swiftly to the other vehicle, in complete embarrassment and to laughter from others in that area of the carriage.

 

[Facing Back]

Funny incident though 50 odd years ago, when I probably looked anything but respectable. I had bedded down on one side of a compartment on an overnight train from Hamburg to Frankfurt when, just after departure, the door opened and a German woman of around my age entered and asked "Can I sleep with you ?". Obviously she was referring to the seats opposite and was not aware of the connotations in English .

I so badly want to ask whether you cemented Anglo German relations but that would be even more off topic than normal...

 

[zwk500]

Or TOCs and Airlines could just find a way to treat people like people. They should build around us, not the other way around.

Of course sometimes it's not perfect, like the 3+2 on the 720s, but people asked for more seats, and so they got more seats.

I've yet to see a 3+2 in the UK that fits my shoulders. I struggle to get my knees in most airlines sears without spreading into the adjacent seat as well.
The only solution would be 2+2 or even 2+1, without widening the loading gauge.

Speaking of which, perhaps we should turn our attention to how people react to sitting in the middle seat of a row of 3?

In my experience people only do so with strangers if the train is obviously already busy and there's limited or no chance of a better seat being available. In which case a seat is for sitting on so I just carry on and try to avoid bothering anybody.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Off-topic, but for Airlines I think medium-haul should seriously consider a 'total weight allowance' rather than baggage only. You get e.g. 120kgs per person, so I'd be able to take 40-50KG of luggage with me.

The infamous Katie Hopkins once said very charmingly "why should I pay £70 extra to carry the same weight that someone else is draping around their waist and arms," which raised all sorts of arguments, as you'd expect; while there's some merit to it, it's rather degrading and dehumanising of larger framed individuals, some of which may have medical conditions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2023 ==

A colleague was telling me of an experience they had with a family on a train in the West Country. The train was packed, but our eagle-eyed correspondent saw an airline seat and hied himself to it.

"You can't sit there mate" said a man sitting behind him
"Why, is there someone sitting here?" he responded
"No, I just don't want some strange bloke sitting next to my daughter" - he looked at the teenager concerned, who was listening to music
"Why don't one of you sit next to her?" he queried
"She doesn't want to sit with us, and I want to sit next to my wife" he incredulously replied
"Well, I'm sitting here regardless, if you want to swap, let me know, I'm not going to stand for the next hour because of your hysteria" said my colleague

The poor bloke had to sit there whilst he was harrangued and called all sorts of names - you can probably guess what the accusations were...

Reading this infuriates me. What an entitled brute that man is (the father, not your colleague).
If he doesn't want her coming into contact with the public he can drive her around himself or book her a taxi.
Ridiculous. As for the bit in bold, it should be reported.

 

[zwk500]

The infamous Katie Hopkins once said very charmingly "why should I pay £70 extra to carry the same weight that someone else is draping around their waist and arms," which raised all sorts of arguments, as you'd expect; while there's some merit to it, it's rather degrading and dehumanising of larger framed individuals, some of which may have medical conditions.

Whilst I hate to say anything that Katie Hopkins has ever supported, I think there are ways of implementing this without getting everybody to crowd around a public scales. I also would advocate an exemptions system for those who have genuine conditions and/or need to move large weights (like motorised wheelchair users) as well as KG-buy/sell system for the airline.

 

[Egg Centric]

Whilst I hate to say anything that Katie Hopkins has ever supported, I think there are ways of implementing this without getting everybody to crowd around a public scales. I also would advocate an exemptions system for those who have genuine conditions and/or need to move large weights (like motorised wheelchair users) as well as KG-buy/sell system for the airline.

As someone who's fatter than the vast majority of you I have no issue with this in principle for aircraft but it doesn't really make sense for trains which are volume bound. It's very rare that I would be in a flight in economy by myself though... Just looking at my probable next long haul trip even without being clever with points etc I can fly business to Zambia for not much more than 2k return per person so why on earth have issues...

However if we do fly economy and we do pay more, then we inist on the right to have food and drink proportionally allocated

 

[zwk500]

As someone who's fatter than the vast majority of you I have no issue with this in principle for aircraft but it doesn't really make sense for trains which are volume bound.

I wouldn't for a moment suggest that this was applied to trains. It would make no sense at all to do so.

 

[kristiang85]

I've had a woman come up to me at Marylebone late at night once and say something like "I don't know you, but do you mind if we have a quick chat so those drunk lads over there leave me alone?" - this is actually fairly terrifying to me as I'm terrible at smalltalk, but I did my best! She got on a different coach when the train arrived (it was a 3-car - she got in one, the lads in another and me in the third one), perhaps she had picked up on me looking scared!

Maybe I just look trustworthy (or just big enough to knock said lads over if they did do anything)

Hah that reminds me. Many years back I was flying from Vancouver to London and got chatting to a girl in the check in queue. She was quite friendly but horrendously nervous about flying. So we had a drink in the airport bar, I reassured her and we went our separate ways as the flight was called as we were seated at different parts of the plane.

Note I was working in Vancouver at the time and was home just for a weekend for a family event, so really wanted to sleep on the plane - which I'm not good at. And to my utter joy, when the plane doors were closed I seemed to have the only empty seat next to me on the flight - and in a 2-4-2 configuration it was even better so I could stretch out.

About two minutes after the seatbelt sights went off, suddenly the girl from check in appeared and plonked herself in the seat next to me, saying the guy next to her was a weirdo and she'd rather sit next to someone she trusted. So I was bolt upright for the whole flight, and she wanted to talk anyway most of the 10hr journey to forget about her fear of flying, so I had no sleep overnight, and I had to go to a party on arrival...

Luckily I was in my early 20s at the time so it was a bit easier to deal with, but nowadays id be well miffed It's great to look trustworthy I guess, but losing my double seat was a bummer (but I guess it was good to make someone's flight a lot better).