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Should London Gateway be electrified?

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GRALISTAIR

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Gateway should definitely be electrified - as it can't use the Ely route I assume a greater proportion of its traffic could use all electric or electric+last mile diesel haulage; whereas lots of Felixstowe traffic uses the Ely route that isnt going to be electrified for a long time.
If I remember correctly, and I will try and post a link later, London Gateway was ranked number 1 for freight electrification priority by some well known person (Julian Worth et al). Of course, I would like it all electrified, but Gateway would be there then do small bits such as Felixstowe - Ipswich after.
 
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renegademaster

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Is the 10 or so 66s running around inside the M25 really that big of deal when their will be 1000s of diesel trucks running at least for the next few decades? This is not like the buses where they actually make a substantial contribution to pollution in a lot of a areas
 

JLH4AC

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It could improve things - if a freight has to be electrically hauled over the NLL it will take too long changing it for a diesel the second you’re off the line, so electrics might be used on extra long-distance freights.
That is why the class 93 and class 99 should be replacing all diesel locomotives, also that is one of the reasons why just banning diesel from the NLL and Goblin could have perverse outcomes elsewhere on the network.
I'm not entirely sure that your comments about London compared to at least some other major UK cities (l haven't truthfully looked at them all) are accurate. You need to look at both population density and geography. Much of central London sits in a "bowl" for want of a better phrase where pollution accumulates in the absence of winds.

I absolutely agree though that all UK cities would benefit from a full phase out of railway diesel propulsion.
Northern cities have way more diesel trains running under wires within them (That is even the case for some cities when only counting freight trains.) and cities like Manchester also have local climates that slow the dispersion of pollutants. As for population density there are likely plenty of non-London freight routes where more people are affected by the pollutants. It also was just a figure of speech to get across my point of view that the other 84%/98% of England would also greatly benefit from phasing out of diesel trains
 
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HSTEd

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Is the 10 or so 66s running around inside the M25 really that big of deal when their will be 1000s of diesel trucks running at least for the next few decades? This is not like the buses where they actually make a substantial contribution to pollution in a lot of a areas
Those Class 66s have diesel engines from the 1990s with no real emissions mitigations.

So yes, yes they will.
 

zwk500

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If I remember correctly, and I will try and post a link later, London Gateway was ranked number 1 for freight electrification priority by some well known person (Julian Worth et al). Of course, I would like it all electrified, but Gateway would be there then do small bits such as Felixstowe - Ipswich after.
In order to electrify any of them, you do need a solution to the overhead gantry loading problem. Be that wholescale replacement of 66s with 88s/93s/99s, battery tenders for 90s/92s, on-site shunters, moveable conductors or some other solution.
You also need sufficient electrification to get a decent workable diagram for electric freight locos, and while that's /getting/ better, it's still far from the network coverage it should really be for that work.

FWIW, I would say London Gateway absolutely should be electrified as far as is necessary for freights to stand clear of the main line while switching between the pantograph and whatever auxiliary power they use. Bi-modes would do it for the moment and we'd have to just accept diesels continuing for now, but the long-term goal would be that all electric locos have batteries suitable for shunting, making the top-loading solution as simple as possible. Loco pulls up to the docks, drops the pan, uses the battery to get to the right position for unloading, is released and runs up to a charging point. On departure, it drops on to the train, couples up, uses the batteries to get up to the mainline protecting signal, pans up and then driver calls signaller to report ready for the road.
 

Nottingham59

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In order to electrify any of them, you do need a solution to the overhead gantry loading problem. Be that wholescale replacement of 66s with 88s/93s/99s, battery tenders for 90s/92s, on-site shunters, moveable conductors or some other solution.
You also need sufficient electrification to get a decent workable diagram for electric freight locos, and while that's /getting/ better, it's still far from the network coverage it should really be for that work.

FWIW, I would say London Gateway absolutely should be electrified as far as is necessary for freights to stand clear of the main line while switching between the pantograph and whatever auxiliary power they use. Bi-modes would do it for the moment and we'd have to just accept diesels continuing for now, but the long-term goal would be that all electric locos have batteries suitable for shunting, making the top-loading solution as simple as possible. Loco pulls up to the docks, drops the pan, uses the battery to get to the right position for unloading, is released and runs up to a charging point. On departure, it drops on to the train, couples up, uses the batteries to get up to the mainline protecting signal, pans up and then driver calls signaller to report ready for the road.
Sounds very sensible. The amount of energy used at slow speeds on the flat is tiny, even for shunting maximum length intermodals. So I'd expect 80kWh the batteries on the Class 93 to be quite enough to handle any movement needed beyond an electrified reception siding at a container port.
 

hwl

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Safer and more reliable to change over on the branch, with less impact if the changeover doesn’t work.
If you only need the secondary power to pull slowly through the loading area then presumably a ‘small’ battery could do it, eliminating diesel fumes and refuelling infrastructure and risks.
If needs be a shunter or another loco in the port can sort the train out if if it turns up as pure electric.

IIRC the annoying and costly issue is that no overrun was put in meaning the junction needs wiring, with consequent higher possession needs and expense??

Is there an ownership issue - ie DP own the branch? Not sure how the legal stuff for operation and risk works if that’s so??
The boundary is 40m east of the foot crossing near the DNO substation just west of the internal port road overbridge.
 

Dr Hoo

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Wouldn’t the freight companies also want a bi-mode/multi-mode locomotive to also be capable of working to Southampton, all along the Joint Line from Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln and so on at full speed? Not to mention bulk traffic like dragging a 2,600-tonne stone train up 1:90 out of Tunstead.

They wouldn’t just want a London Gateway bespoke solution.
 

Meerkat

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The boundary is 40m east of the foot crossing near the DNO substation just west of the internal port road overbridge.
Electrifying to there would be plenty to get clear of the mainline, and less than 2 miles to and through the terminal to the headshunt. Not sure if there is space for a recharging bay there (if that’s necessary) - presumably mixing high power electrics and a refuelling point would raise eyebrows……..
Wouldn’t the freight companies also want a bi-mode/multi-mode locomotive to also be capable of working to Southampton, all along the Joint Line from Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln and so on at full speed? Not to mention bulk traffic like dragging a 2,600-tonne stone train up 1:90 out of Tunstead.

They wouldn’t just want a London Gateway bespoke solution.
It wouldn’t be Gateway bespoke. If its literally just a shunting/last mile battery pack then it’s really just an Electric loco with a little battery, which would be useful in many places including making depots safer and escaping an OLE failure.
 

zwk500

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Electrifying to there would be plenty to get clear of the mainline, and less than 2 miles to and through the terminal to the headshunt. Not sure if there is space for a recharging bay there (if that’s necessary) - presumably mixing high power electrics and a refuelling point would raise eyebrows……..

It wouldn’t be Gateway bespoke. If its literally just a shunting/last mile battery pack then it’s really just an Electric loco with a little battery, which would be useful in many places including making depots safer and escaping an OLE failure.
The sensible thing to do, at least to me, would be to electrify the arrival/departure tracks at the west end of Gateway up to the pointwork for the gantry sidings fan, and then electrify the middle track (I assume it's the release road) only to the buffers. You could do this with standard Twin-Track Cantilever structures on foundations north of the line. I couldn't see anything that looked like a fuelling point on google maps - the yellow area around the headshunt would indicate a cripple road inspection point given the lack of any obvious fuel tank, but I could be very wrong. This configuration would allow a train to pull all the way into London Gateway on OLE pull forward through the gantry sidings on batteries, then run onto the headshunt and then pan up (if needed). You'd have a very tiny amount of time and distance off the juice.
Another option would be to end the OLE at the substation, and add shunt signals so that London Gateway can send locos onto the connecting lines to charge up as they need to without needing to shunt on to the mainline. However that does mean signalling changes on the NR side...

There are plenty of locations where OLE crosses ownership boundaries, and although it's a consideration and a complication, if London Gateway are keen for wires I wouldn't have thought it would be a job-killing problem.
 

renegademaster

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Those Class 66s have diesel engines from the 1990s with no real emissions mitigations.
Will getting rid of the relatively small amount of diagrams with an expensive electricfaction programs enough QALY to make it worth it. Theirs much more polluting things plodding round London you can get rid of for cheaper
 

HSTEd

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Will getting rid of the relatively small amount of diagrams with an expensive electricfaction programs enough QALY to make it worth it. Theirs much more polluting things plodding round London you can get rid of for cheaper
I expect it would, if you could actually get the FOCs to go along with this plan rather than just run their Class 66 regardless (I don't think you can).

London Gateway is probably a fairly cheap programme, compared to many proposed here.
 

66701GBRF

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The sensible thing to do, at least to me, would be to electrify the arrival/departure tracks at the west end of Gateway up to the pointwork for the gantry sidings fan, and then electrify the middle track (I assume it's the release road) only to the buffers. You could do this with standard Twin-Track Cantilever structures on foundations north of the line. I couldn't see anything that looked like a fuelling point on google maps - the yellow area around the headshunt would indicate a cripple road inspection point given the lack of any obvious fuel tank, but I could be very wrong. This configuration would allow a train to pull all the way into London Gateway on OLE pull forward through the gantry sidings on batteries, then run onto the headshunt and then pan up (if needed). You'd have a very tiny amount of time and distance off the juice.
Another option would be to end the OLE at the substation, and add shunt signals so that London Gateway can send locos onto the connecting lines to charge up as they need to without needing to shunt on to the mainline. However that does mean signalling changes on the NR side...

There are plenty of locations where OLE crosses ownership boundaries, and although it's a consideration and a complication, if London Gateway are keen for wires I wouldn't have thought it would be a job-killing problem.
The fuel point is where the two freightliner engines are stabled, fuel is provided by road tanker rather than on site tanks...at least that's how it used to be. Loco's are released back up the line directly opposite the cranes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

On another note, if you make freight too expensive for the operators to actually run trains you will just force traffic onto the roads. Is this what people want?
 
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HSTEd

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On another note, if you make freight too expensive for the operators to actually run trains you will just force traffic onto the roads. Is this what people want?
The freight railway already receives major indirect subsidies (thanks to paying essentially nothing for track access) in order to keep the freight off the road. A little more will make no difference.

Beyond that, this argument is the favoured one the freight railway uses to oppose modernisation, and they might believe it will work forever, but I doubt it myself. Eventually the government will go "ok then" and that will be that.
 

Class15

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Beyond that, this argument is the favoured one the freight railway uses to oppose modernisation, and they might believe it will work forever, but I doubt it myself. Eventually the government will go "ok then" and that will be that.
This is absolutely correct - I’ve heard enough of this excuse for years and it’s time the government, as you suggest, just said “ok then”!
 

AlastairFraser

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Asking DP World to pay for a mile or so of electrification from the LTS (London, Tilbury and Southend) line towards the port seems like the most sensible solution, at least until the moveable catenary technology matures.

Freight locos will probably still have a diesel capability alongside battery and OHLE for a while now, so it shouldn't be an issue for locos to operate on ideally battery within the port, with the switch to OHLE occuring smoothly a mile before reaching the LTS.
 
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