Should know better?

[Sun Chariot]

Didn’t the Middleton Railway in Leeds achieve this milestone before them?

Middleton to Leeds wagonway opened September 1758 and it is the oldest continuously operating route. Horse drawn at the outset, locomotives came later.

Strelley to Wollaton wagonway opened circa October 1604.

Prescott (Liverpool) wagonway is alleged to have opened as early as 1584 (I've found no concrete evidence of that date, as another info source quotes 1600 instead)

 

[norbitonflyer]

Didn’t the Middleton Railway in Leeds achieve this milestone before them?

The Middleton is the oldest railway still in operation (1758) but there were railways in existence in Tudor times.

The Diolkos, a guided trackway across the isthmus of Corinth, seems to have existed as early as 700BC. This used grooved stones rather than rails

Diolkos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[A S Leib]

I know this has little to do with the original post, but the thread seems to have since gone down the "first intercity railway", so, apart from HS2 (and East West Rail counting reopenings), what was the most recent line to be built between settlements of city status? HS1's dependent on counting services via it to Canterbury, and on St. Pancras being counted as serving City of London or Westminster (which I'd say it does); Nottingham became a city in 1897, so I think it would just about be the Great Central Main Line.

I know the Crossrail core, West Midlands Metro, Tyne and Wear Metro and Manchester Metrolink opened more recently, but I wouldn't count Bond Street to Farringdon, Sunderland to Monument or Anchorage to Deansgate as a properly intercity service.

 

[Winthorpe]

Given the pedantry on display in this thread, why get bogged down in ‘city status’? It’s nearly always been an honorary status. There never has been any definite criteria.

There are a few railways created in the 1820s and 1830s that look like what we know as modern railways. They were created due to the economic importance of the areas served. That’s it.

 

[30907]

Getting back to 1825:

Michael Robbins in "The Railway Age" (my copy is a 1960s 3/6d Penguin!) argued that the L and M was the first true public railway, because unlike the S and D it ran the trains itself rather than offering its track to all comers.

So there is a case for the L and M - but the LNER got in first in 1925 (and the ER in 1975) so the argument for 1830 over 1825 will struggle. And 2030 will give us more reasons to celebrate!

 

[zwk500]

Swanage Railway Company chairman Gavin Johns said: "Two-hundred years ago passenger train services started on the Liverpool and Manchester railway and it was a true game changer, not only in Britain but across the world, because railway technology was rapidly exported."

You would think that the Swanage Railway Company chairman Gavin Johns would know his railway history!

I note that nothing in the quote is wrong. Mr Johns does not say anywhere that the L&M is the first.

He only says that it was 'a true game changer'. It is difficult to deny that the wider societal impact of the L&M was monumental, regardless of other railways having been built before it. The key element that Mr Johns isolated is the stimulation of export.

From the L&M's wiki page:

It was also the first railway to rely exclusively on locomotives driven by steam power, with no horse-drawn traffic permitted at any time; the first to be entirely double track throughout its length; the first to have a true signalling system; the first to be fully timetabled; and the first to carry mail.[5]

However, a brief lament for the Canterbury and Whitstable, which opened 5 months ahead of the L&M, used exclusive steam traction (although some of it was stationary engines hauling cables for inclines) and a timetable and was visited by both Stephenson and Brunel in preparing for their own flagship railways.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I note that nothing in the quote is wrong. Mr Johns does not say anywhere that the L&M is the first.

Gavin Johns said: "Two-hundred years ago passenger train services started on the Liverpool and Manchester railway."
Possibly Mr Johns meant "approximately".

L&M's first revenue service was 15-Sep-1830. 195 years ago.
That's what several posters on this thread have picked up on.

 

[Class15]

Gavin Johns said: "Two-hundred years ago passenger train services started on the Liverpool and Manchester railway."
Possibly Mr Johns meant "approximately".

L&M's first revenue service was 15-Sep-1830. 195 years ago.
That's what several posters on this thread have picked up on.

That is a bit pedantic IMO, particularly given that 195 is often rounded to 200.

 

[Sun Chariot]

That is a bit pedantic IMO, particularly given that 195 is often rounded to 200.

Hence my comment about use of the word "approximately".

 

[DarloRich]

Neither Liverpool nor Manchester have a train on thier football club crest. Darlington does. No further statement need be made.

 

[Snow1964]

Also, neither Stockton nor Darlington were or are cities? So a railway between them is hardly "inter-city".

Manchester didn't get city status until 1853, and Liverpool got city status in 1880

So I doubt Liverpool-Manchester is first inter-city route either

 

[RT4038]

Neither Liverpool nor Manchester have a train on thier football club crest. Darlington does. No further statement need be made.

Exactly.

 

[Krokodil]

Neither Liverpool nor Manchester have a train on thier football club crest. Darlington does. No further statement need be made.

Though Manchester United was originally formed as "Newton Heath LYR FC" and was composed of railwaymen

 

[stuu]

That is a bit pedantic IMO, particularly given that 195 is often rounded to 200.

Not when discussing anniversaries surely??

 

[Sun Chariot]

Not when discussing anniversaries surely??

And definitely not when mentioning my dear wife's age. Rounding it up from 55 to 60? If I did, I'd lose my crown jewels...

But, absolutely agree. I can't imagine the Rainhill 150th event or BR's GWR 150th celebrations would have gone down well, if they'd been done 5 years too early.

 

[JKF]

The Middleton is the oldest railway still in operation (1758) but there were railways in existence in Tudor times.

The Diolkos, a guided trackway across the isthmus of Corinth, seems to have existed as early as 700BC. This used grooved stones rather than rails

Diolkos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

My point was that the Middleton was employing self-propelled steam locomotives before the S&D, so the quote was incorrect. I think the S&D milestone was the first public railway?