Should know better?

[nuneatonmark]

Railway 200: Enthusiasts brave high winds for whistle-up

Heritage rail enthusiasts turn out for the "whistle-up" to mark 200 years of passenger rail travel.

www.bbc.co.uk

Swanage Railway Company chairman Gavin Johns said: "Two-hundred years ago passenger train services started on the Liverpool and Manchester railway and it was a true game changer, not only in Britain but across the world, because railway technology was rapidly exported."

You would think that the Swanage Railway Company chairman Gavin Johns would know his railway history!

 

[Gloster]

I hope that he has no plans to go to County Durham.

 

[Class15]

Railway 200: Enthusiasts brave high winds for whistle-up

Heritage rail enthusiasts turn out for the "whistle-up" to mark 200 years of passenger rail travel.

www.bbc.co.uk

You would think that the Swanage Railway Company chairman Gavin Johns would know his railway history!

Would it be possible to explain what he has said wrong?

 

[Darandio]

Would it be possible to explain what he has said wrong?

He said ""Two-hundred years ago passenger train services started on the Liverpool and Manchester railway". They didn't.

Stockton and Darlington say hello.

 

[Class15]

He said ""Two-hundred years ago passenger train services started on the Liverpool and Manchester railway". They didn't.

Stockton and Darlington say hello.

Ohhhh, thanks for explaining. I genuinely wasn’t sure!

 

[Retorus]

It’s hardly that big of an issue is it?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Ohhhh, thanks for explaining. I genuinely wasn’t sure!

Yes, the L&M's first revenue service (15-Sep-1830) was a full five years later than the S&D's (27-Sep-1825).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Jan 2025 ==

It’s hardly that big of an issue is it?

Compared to the number of factual errors in Channel 5's "Walking Britain's Lost Railways", you're absolutely right.

Nottingham Victoria - Steve Banks

Railway historical research (all companies) especially workings on the LNER and BR. Railway modelling of coaches and carriages on a professional basis.

www.steve-banks.org

 

[Deepgreen]

It’s hardly that big of an issue is it?

No, it's not earth-shattering but it is lazy, and someone in that position should do better.

 

[bleeder4]

This thread prompted me to look at the Wikipedia article on the Liverpool & Manchester, in which, rather amusingly, they confidently state it was the "first inter-city railway in the world".

Liverpool and Manchester Railway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thinking about it, they probably mean it was the first railway that was created from the ground up as an inter-city railway. Although Stockton & Darlington started conveying passengers a full five years earlier, that railway was originally built to transport coal, rather than people.

 

[Sun Chariot]

This thread prompted me to look at the Wikipedia article on the Liverpool & Manchester, in which, rather amusingly, they confidently state it was the "first inter-city railway in the world".

I wonder if Liverpool & Manchester stock was known as....
InterCity 12.5

 

[sh24]

From the persective of the South, it's all just Up North

 

[DelW]

This thread prompted me to look at the Wikipedia article on the Liverpool & Manchester, in which, rather amusingly, they confidently state it was the "first inter-city railway in the world".

Thinking about it, they probably mean it was the first railway that was created from the ground up as an inter-city railway. Although Stockton & Darlington started conveying passengers a full five years earlier, that railway was originally built to transport coal, rather than people.

Also, neither Stockton nor Darlington were or are cities? So a railway between them is hardly "inter-city".

 

[Class15]

From the persective of the South, it's all just Up North

They grumble all the time, why can’t we

 

[ThirteenArches]

If you#re going to include S&D (steam but not passenger), why not the Wollaton Waggonway (coal only)? A full 220 years earlier.

 

[AlterEgo]

Also, neither Stockton nor Darlington were or are cities? So a railway between them is hardly "inter-city".

Neither were Liverpool or Manchester.

 

[Sun Chariot]

If you#re going to include S&D (steam but not passenger), why not the Wollaton Waggonway (coal only)? A full 220 years earlier.

Like other industrial wagonways preceding the S&D and the L&M, Wollaton wagons were hauled by horses rather than by self propelled steam locomotives.

 

[Magdalia]

The BBC has this article from 2021, where the way that the Chair of the Stockton and Darlington Railway Friends Group starts his answer is spectacularly appropriate!

Stockton and Darlington Railway: What's so special about a 200-year-old railway?

With the 200th anniversary approaching, what's so special about the Stockton and Darlington Railway?

www.bbc.co.uk

Two-hundred years ago, work began on the Stockton and Darlington Railway (S&DR). According to its supporters, it is the railway that changed the world, but what makes it so significant and how much of it still exists?

What's so special about the Stockton and Darlington Railway?​

"The steam railway world is full of pedants," Niall Hammond says with a laugh. "So I have to be careful about how I answer that.
"We would argue that it's the railway that got the world on track."
According to the chairman of the S&DR Friend's Group, what the S&DR did was, for the first time, bring together various elements of engineering and ideas for what a railway could be, which gave the rest of the world a blueprint for how to build a recognisably modern railway.

 

[DelW]

Neither were Liverpool or Manchester.

By the time the name InterCity was invented, they were

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Manchester gained city status in 1853 and Liverpool in 1880. So describing the L&M as the first ‘intercity railway’ is completely factually incorrect. The first ‘inter-urban railway’ would be a better choice.

Edit- thinking about it, I wonder what the first true inter-city passenger service was. Presumably something opened in the 1830s-40s linking two actual cities?

 

[Krokodil]

Birmingham wasn't, so that rules out both the London & Birmingham and the Grand Junction.

Bristol was though. The GWR opened in 1841, does anyone have any advance on that?

 

[ThirteenArches]

But the London and Birmingham went through Coventry, so at least that bit was inter- city.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

Wollaton wagons were hauled by horses

Well, they could have taught the horses to whistle.

 

[Gloster]

The London & Southampton Railway opened on 11 May 1840 and served Winchester.

 

[Winthorpe]

Why are you arguing about such nonsense?

The issue I am intrigued about is carrying passengers (humans for absurd pedants). Did the L&M really anticipate passengers? I thought it was unexpected and the passenger stations were bolted on afterwards?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Why are you arguing about such nonsense?

The issue I am intrigued about is carrying passengers (humans for absurd pedants). Did the L&M really anticipate passengers? I thought it was unexpected and the passenger stations were bolted on afterwards?

The L&M was conceived as mixed traffic from the start. The S&D was primarily freight though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

The London & Southampton Railway opened on 11 May 1840 and served Winchester.

But if we are being strict about this, its London terminus was in Lambeth, which was not (and still is not) in the City of London - or Westminster for that matter)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jan 2025 ==

Birmingham wasn't, so that rules out both the London & Birmingham and the Grand Junction.

Bristol was though. The GWR opened in 1841, does anyone have any advance on that?

I'm sure we've had a similar discussion before, and accepting that neither Paddington nor Euston were within city limits of either London or Westminster, the conclusion seemed to be that the GWR between Bath and Bristol was the first railway to actually link two different cities. That section of the GWR opened on 31st August 1840. The line through to Paddington (which did not become part of the City of Westminster until 1965) was completed ten months later, when Box Tunnel was opened.

Bath has been a city since the Norman era (c1090) - Bristol is a relative newcomer as it was not granted city status until c 1580.

 

[Egg Centric]

200 years is ridiculously new. The Tanfield Railway is celebrating 300 years in 2025!

 

[D Mylchreest]

To be picky, neither Manchester or Liverpool was a city in 1830, both being incorporated much later.
I think the first inter city railway was the London and Birmingham

 

[norbitonflyer]

To be picky, neither Manchester or Liverpool was a city in 1830, both being incorporated much later.
I think the first inter city railway was the London and Birmingham

Biringham wasn't a city in 1838 either, but Coventry was. If you count Euston as being in a city, then the L&B wins (1838). However, Euston was in the borough of St Pancras, in the County of Middlesex, until 1885. It fell just outside the area known as "The Stones" within which Hackney Carriages were licenced. Euston Road marked the boundary - indeed it is because railway companies were not allowed to build within the urban area that so many railway termini were built along that road.

The GWR connected the cities of Bath and Bristol in 1841.

 

[Lloyds siding]

Irrespective of city status...we seem to have established that none of the early railways were genuinely between cities....in 1831 the largest towns in UK were London, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham...in that order.

 

[stuu]

I'm sure we've had a similar discussion before, and accepting that neither Paddington nor Euston were within city limits of either London or Westminster, the conclusion seemed to be that the GWR between Bath and Bristol was the first railway to actually link two different cities. That section of the GWR opened on 31st August 1840. The line through to Paddington (which did not become part of the City of Westminster until 1965) was completed ten months later, when Box Tunnel was opened.

Even by this site's atrocious standard for pedantry, this is quite extreme. Paddington and Euston clearly serve Westminster, to pretend otherwise is just bizarre

 

[JKF]

Like other industrial wagonways preceding the S&D and the L&M, Wollaton wagons were hauled by horses rather than by self propelled steam locomotives.

Didn’t the Middleton Railway in Leeds achieve this milestone before them?