Should Grand Central order the new Hitachi Trains?

[dk1]

Definitely Class 8xx trains should be ordered. 7 or 9 coaches - I'm surprised Hull Trains didn't order 7-car trains as 5 coach ones doesn't have that much more seats than a 180!

This has come up many times before. Ordering more than 5-cars would limit platform sharing at Kings Cross, something which HT relies upon. It would also have then prevented doubling up of units at any time.

 

[RobShipway]

Funnily enough that fits exactly the same description as the guy on twitter this week that was spouting that all the MK5s were getting scrapped.

But to answer my original question that would be a 'no' on the rolling stock procurement experience.

Well, it was not me as I have not got an X formerly Twitter account and if have read more of my posts, you will see that I have actually been saying that the MK5A coaches could and I believe should be moved on to other TOC's where they can be used at higher speeds than they are with TPE.

 

[Clarence Yard]

This has come up many times before. Ordering more than 5-cars would limit platform sharing at Kings Cross, something which HT relies upon. It would also have then prevented doubling up of units at any time.

Also, the simple fact was that the number of passengers weren’t there, at that time, to justify a 7 car fleet.

 

[dk1]

Also, the simple fact was that the number of passengers weren’t there, at that time, to justify a 7 car fleet.

That too mate.

 

[mike57]

I'm surprised Hull Trains didn't order 7-car trains as 5 coach ones doesn't have that much more seats than a 180!

I dont think it was about capacity, more about being able to run from Hull to Kings Cross without announcing the non arrival via smoke signals. We use HT fairly regularly and they seem well patronised, but so far we have only been on one overcrowded service, and that was when LNER were having a bad day and it filled to capacity and beyond at Doncaster.

Does anyone know what the profitability of Hull Trains is? I heard they were making a small profit, but not sure how that was calculated.

What is GC loading like, do they fill their trains now, I have seen a couple at York pre covid that looked lightly loaded. Are they profitable?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What is GC loading like, do they fill their trains now, I have seen a couple at York pre covid that looked lightly loaded. Are they profitable?

No idea about the Sunderland service or indeed profitability, but every time I've caught a West Riding service the loading has been pretty healthy.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I dont think it was about capacity, more about being able to run from Hull to Kings Cross without announcing the non arrival via smoke signals. We use HT fairly regularly and they seem well patronised, but so far we have only been on one overcrowded service, and that was when LNER were having a bad day and it filled to capacity and beyond at Doncaster.

Does anyone know what the profitability of Hull Trains is? I heard they were making a small profit, but not sure how that was calculated.

What is GC loading like, do they fill their trains now, I have seen a couple at York pre covid that looked lightly loaded. Are they profitable?

Yes, I do know how profitable Hull Trains is but that’s not something that is going to be published on here, or indeed going outside FG because there are strict stock market rules on trading disclosures.

 

[357]

I can say that I use Grand Central pretty often (multiple times each week) and I've never been on a lightly loaded service, at any time of day.

I used to use Lumo fairly frequently and can say the same about their service.

Only used Hull Trains the once and again, it had healthy loadings.

Regarding profitability I think anyone who knows the numbers is also intelligent enough not to post them here. Companies House will contain any publicly available information.

 

[mike57]

Yes, I do know how profitable Hull Trains is but that’s not something that is going to be published on here,

Regarding profitability I think anyone who knows the numbers is also intelligent enough not to post them here

Thats fair enough., I can see that the information would be sensitive.

My thinking was Hull Trains seem to be profitable even paying for new trains (or maybe because they have new trains???), so transfer that thought to GC, and the issue would appear to be the short time to run on the access agreement.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You would have to be mad to order replacement trains on your existing TAA without getting your extension in place first. That’s your key to getting more than five years, if you play it right.

You also need a decent length in your TAA to get the rolling stock market and their financiers interested.

 

[Meerkat]

Considering how HS2 is going I reckon the DfT would rip Hitachi’s arm off if they said “would you mind awfully if we slowed down HS2 train deliveries so we can build some bi-mode trains you don’t have to pay for but can use in your PR as being greener?”

 

[AlastairFraser]

Whether Hitachi, Bombardier, Talgo, CAF or Siemens, it doesn't particularly matter. GC need some decent 125mph bi mode EMUs reasonably quickly, and then the 180s can be relocated, preferably to the scrapyard, or perhaps the ROSCO can flog them to some poor sod elsewhere like those HSTs and Mexico?

When does the current TAA end, is this public information?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2023 ==

Even with the best electrification work strategy, it will be years until Network Rail get round to wiring up the Durham Coast, by which time the 180s would have probably all fallen to pieces.

More wiring is needed, just focus on filling in the diesel islands which will allow a big bang changing from diesel to electric. I.e. Warrington Central/Blackpool South line

Relying on cascades from that is a bad idea though, and not relevant to GC's issues given the stock it will replace.

Blackpool South may get wired and transferred as part of a tram extension proposal currently promoted by the Fylde councils, but that's only going to lead to the release (and likely withdrawal) of some of the worst Sprinter specimens.

Which are no use to GC, of course.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The wires end further on at Crofton.

Apologies for quoting something from page one, but was this an error on your part? The wires certainly don't end at Crofton which is just a few miles beyond Wakefield Kirkgate. They end where the Askern line branches off the ECML. I certainly would have noticed wires being strung up through Pontefract.

 

[Energy]

Apologies for quoting something from page one, but was this an error on your part? The wires certainly don't end at Crofton which is just a few miles beyond Wakefield Kirkgate. They end where the Askern line branches off the ECML. I certainly would have noticed wires being strung up through Pontefract.

Turns out GC use 2 routings, 1 which goes via Crofton and one which goes via Pontefact.

 

[Twingo37175]

Turns out GC use 2 routings, 1 which goes via Crofton and one which goes via Pontefact.

And equally on the routing past Crofton (via Adwick after leaving Doncaster) the wires end at Hare Park junction (between Fitzwilliam and Sandall and Agbrigg on the Leeds line), not Crofton

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Turns out GC use 2 routings, 1 which goes via Crofton and one which goes via Pontefact.

The Pontefract route also goes via Crofton, so it would make more sense to refer to the other route as "via Hare Park" or "via Adwick".

 

[Energy]

And equally on the routing past Crofton (via Adwick after leaving Doncaster) the wires end at Hare Park junction (between Fitzwilliam and Sandall and Agbrigg on the Leeds line), not Crofton

The map I was using (openrailwaymap - electrification) doesn't show junction names so I picked Crofton as its very close.

The Pontefract route also goes via Crofton, so it would make more sense to refer to the other route as "via Hare Park" or "via Adwick".

Fair, I wasn't previously aware that GC sometimes goes via Pontefract.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The map I was using (openrailwaymap - electrification) doesn't show junction names so I picked Crofton as its very close.

Just click and change the map to Infrastructure, the area you're looking at won't change but it'll show junction names and closed lines.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, we have this factory in Darlington full of people who know how to build trains. Might as well make use of it when it runs out of work.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Fair, I wasn't previously aware that GC sometimes goes via Pontefract.

Strictly speaking via Pontefract is the main or default route, hence the calls at Monkhill station. Going via Hare Park is the exception as it means skipping Pontefract Monkhill.

 

[43096]

Well, we have this factory in Darlington full of people who know how to build trains. Might as well make use of it when it runs out of work.

That’s debatable. They have assembled trains. Badly. Very badly.

Why give them more work?

 

[yorksrob]

That’s debatable. They have assembled trains. Badly. Very badly.

Why give them more work?

They assembled what the DfT spec told them to !

 

[43096]

They assembled what the DfT spec told them to !

I think we can be pretty sure that the DfT spec didn't say "worse ride than a Mark 4", "banging noises from under the frame", "use the wrong grade of aluminium", "make them unable to reach target availability".

 

[Energy]

They assembled what the DfT spec told them to !

The DfT spec didn't include cracking.

 

[yorksrob]

The DfT spec didn't include cracking.

Bonus special ?

I don't know, that's modern trains for you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Aug 2023 ==

I think we can be pretty sure that the DfT spec didn't say "worse ride than a Mark 4", "banging noises from under the frame", "use the wrong grade of aluminium", "make them unable to reach target availability".

To be honest, but for the seats (which are too hard for London - Leeds, let alone London - Inverness) I'm not fussed about the rest of it.

We're a long way from the gold standard of InterCity 125, but that doesn't mean that a comfortable interior can't be achieved.

 

[Kite159]

Strictly speaking via Pontefract is the main or default route, hence the calls at Monkhill station. Going via Hare Park is the exception as it means skipping Pontefract Monkhill.

Don't more GC skip Pontefract more than they call there? Therefore the default must be via Hare Park.

 

[TheBigD]

Don't more GC skip Pontefract more than they call there? Therefore the default must be via Hare Park.

Stopping at Pontefract...

Northbound is 2 out of 4 services SX, 1 out of 4 SO, and 0 out of 4 SuO.
Southbound is 3 out of 4 services SX, 4 out of 4 SO, and 0 out of 4 SuO.

30 out of 56 weekly services stop at Pontefract.

 

[greyman42]

What is GC loading like, do they fill their trains now, I have seen a couple at York pre covid that looked lightly loaded. Are they profitable?

GC on the Sunderland route are usually about full. Some services are full and standing between York and London and vice versa.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Don't more GC skip Pontefract more than they call there? Therefore the default must be via Hare Park.

Stopping at Pontefract...

Northbound is 2 out of 4 services SX, 1 out of 4 SO, and 0 out of 4 SuO.
Southbound is 3 out of 4 services SX, 4 out of 4 SO, and 0 out of 4 SuO.

30 out of 56 weekly services stop at Pontefract.

When the Bradford service first started, only a few trains per week skipped Ponte-Carlo. Clearly the passenger numbers from there haven't been as impressive as those at Brighouse and Mirfield, hence more services skipping, but going via Ponte was always the default.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not sure where you are getting your figures from, but if you add up the number of bi-modes in class 800, 802, 805 and 810 there are 186 bi-mode trains. Of that 138 are five car bi-modes. That gives us 48 9 car class 80x bi-mode trains as you state. There is nowhere near the number of 202 bi-mode trains that you state above.

I thought I explained how I got to the total of potentially 202 AT-300 bi-modes above? Ie. there are enough diesel gensets under the nominally 'electric' class 801 units to create either 10 or 16 additional bi-modes (depending on whether the 9-car class 801s have one genset or two) without building any more just by moving gensets between units. As you state, the current total is 186 bi-modes - use the gensets out of the 801s to make bi-modes and you could do:

• 186 + 10 = 196 bi-modes or
• 186 + 16 = 202 bi-modes (this is why I said potentially 202 rather than currently)

I suspect that you maybe including the class 801, whilst yes having a single diesel power unit for recovery are actually counted as being full electric units, the same as class 803 units and will be the case with the class 807 units.

Do the class 803s and 807s have a diesel power unit for recovery? I thought it was only the class 801s that did, with the 803s having batteries instead.

Even with the best electrification work strategy, it will be years until Network Rail get round to wiring up the Durham Coast, by which time the 180s would have probably all fallen to pieces.

Yes, the Durham Coast line is a way down the list but there are plenty of other places which aren't. For example, Hull could be fairly high up the list which would free up the Hull Trains 802s (and maybe some of TPE's 802s) for a cascade to Grand Central. Since GC has a larger fleet than Hull Trains, diesel gensets out of 801s could be used to make up the numbers.

Yes that was a plan for a few 3 car 331’s for Windermere originally (4th car with batteries underneath).

Other than the pantograph well, do you know if there are any differences between the class 195 and class 331 bodyshells?

To be honest, but for the seats (which are too hard for London - Leeds, let alone London - Inverness) I'm not fussed about the rest of it.

Yes, the current AT-300 series units have awful seats (I think the longest I've done on one is Carmarthen to Cardiff, and the seats were too hard for that journey in my view let alone anything further). That is something that needs addressing in future (any new AT-300 classes, rather than additional 803s/807s etc., should also have plug doors in my opinion).