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Should GBR create a Strategic Coach Network?

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Ghostbus

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In another thread, I recently learned of Alan Storkey's proposal for completely re-imagining long distance coach services.


He proposes hundreds of coach stations ( "Coachway Transfer Stations", or simply "coachway") built at the junctions of the strategic road network (motorways and trunk routes). A massive order of magnitude increase in the coach fleet, and with these coaches only ever running on the strategic road network, sees them making rapid transfers at the coachways with each other, and with what he calls "gathering" methods (how to get people to the coachways), to move people around much faster than the existing network.

A single coachway serves populations of 100,000-500,000 (see the map for an instant idea). Gathering methods should get people from a few hundred yards from their house, to a coachway. It can be anything from walking, cycling, buses, trams, the tube, taxis and even the railways. People can even drop you off by car, but crucially, he does not propose parking. Coachways are not Park and Rides. He doesn't want to congest the junctions and is mindful of the small (but undeveloped) parcels of available land near or even in the junctions.

As you may be able to figure out, a single journey will require multiple changes en-route, as well as the change from coach to gathering mode at either end. Ergo, he wants the coaches designed specifically for rapid transfers, but in attractive facilities. The design of the coaches and high number of coaches he says, ensures transfers (including waits) of only minutes, and average speeds (including transfer) of 50mph on motorway routes. He envisages a system so efficient, it is turn up and go. Since speed (and frequency) is essential, it is vital for the system to allow coaches to do things like use the hard-shoulder to bypass jams, and give massive priority to buses heading out of town to the local coachway.

Crucially, he sees this being complementary to the railway, with limited competion, and could even see congestion relieved on their primarily centre to centre traffic flows. He would convert parkway stations to coachways. It is about taking people out of cars as much as serving the needs of the car-less better than the existing coach network. It is about harnessing the benefits of the strategy road network, particularly orbital routes.

It's a very interesting proposal, if a little optimistic on what can be built. And I suspect, vastly overestimates the end to end journey speed possible. I couldn't find any mention of luggage or bags, despite frequent reference to fast, easy, comfortable transfers. And what if you live on the far side of town from a coachway? That's probably two or even three changes before you even get to the coachway. It was proposed before Covid, but that probably has little relevance, since people are still moving about in their millions. Where to get the coach drivers is clearly an issue, perhaps the fatal flaw, even before Covid. Oh, and he only really mentions England, not Scotland or Wales.

As often happens in such things, it proposes a virtuous circle whereby the efficiency of the system attracts car drivers, which increases efficiency, and so on. I'm not so sure this is how things work in the real world, but I guess nobody has attempted it on this scale. I fear that any free space created by this network will adhere to the basic rule of car/road use - others will simply come along and use the freed up space.

But he also points out the major flaw that this would have to be a major undertaking, and the government thus far isn't bothered.

This is where GBR could come in.......

1. We are surely now in a position where building the coachways can be pitched as investment, and smoothed through planning.

2. The forthcoming law to allow councils to run their own buses (not partnership/franchise) can surely be extended to allow GBR to create a coach division that directly owns and operates vehicles.

3. It's never been a better time to build a brand new network of coach depots to stable and service this vast fleet. As well as planning easement and unlocked investment, the future means by which coaches and depots are powered, operated and connected, are known. Electric/eco/fibre/5G. And the fact Network Rail has lots of spare land might come in handy, although logically they probably need to be sited next to the strategic road network.

As an added bonus, this proposed network would have so many coaches and drivers, it surely then becomes possible to provide the bus replacement service for any and all planned engineering works. And if the gathering methods are good enough, it even sounds like the scheduled coach network could absorb some of the pain of unplanned disruption, at least until the Coach division can set up a proper emergency rail replacement bus service.
 
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Simon75

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Wouldn't you need feeder buses to connect with some if these services.
I know Milton Keynes coach way has regular buses though, but a place like Stoke-on-Trent, is about 9 miles from the Junction 16 of the M6, there are no no buses.
Although Radway Green is about 1.5 miles away, you could reroute the current 103 Crewe to Hanley
 
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Not necessarily a UK wide scheme, but I’ve always thought that CityLink could be rearranged to provide integration with ScotRail, in a similar fashion to Amtrak Thruway.

An obvious dilemma is that CityLink is a private company, but if it wasn’t, or the owners were amenable to change (or sale).

Imagine being able to buy a through ticket to Ullapool from Edinburgh that didn’t involve sitting on a coach the whole way.

Places like Campbeltown, Uig, Ullapool, Portree could all be available with through ticketing.

It doesn’t need to be just in the outlying areas, as even in the central belt CityLink connects to places such as Harthill that don’t have rail connections currently.

If other routes, outside of CityLink, such as the X74 Dumfries to Glasgow or 101 Dumfries to Edinburgh were added, then you could add places like Biggar, Abington, Lesmahagow and Moffat to the rail network.

Just a back of the envelope thought, and obviously full of technical issues around pricing, structure and the fact that the buses are all privately owned, but does ask a big question about lack of transport integration in this country.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not necessarily a UK wide scheme, but I’ve always thought that CityLink could be rearranged to provide integration with ScotRail, in a similar fashion to Amtrak Thruway.

Both Wales and Scotland have very bitty rail networks and would indeed work well with a combined network integrating both in one fare system etc.
 

N1

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Imagine being able to buy a through ticket to Ullapool from Edinburgh that didn’t involve sitting on a coach the whole way.
You can already buy a through rail ticket to Ullapool from Edinburgh. It is called RailBus and isn't sold online.
 

JonathanH

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Imagine being able to buy a through ticket to Ullapool from Edinburgh that didn’t involve sitting on a coach the whole way.
In this circumstance, what is the benefit of having a through ticket relative to buying the two tickets for train and coach separately?

If it is to save the passenger money, then does the coach operator or the railway operator take the revenue hit?

If it is about convenience, how much more convenient is it now that coaches don't only take cash?
 

Titfield

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A complete and utter non starter. Persuading caraholics out of their cars would require ultra high frequency services with journey times comparable to that of the car and at fares less than the price of the petrol / diesel / electricity.
 

Ghostbus

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Persuading caraholics out of their cars would require ultra high frequency services with journey times comparable to that of the car and at fares less than the price of the petrol / diesel / electricity.
Which is why that's what this proposal offered. High frequency (turn up and go) coaches with rapid transfers and priority over traffic congestion such that their end to end journey times would approach the journey time in a car, and moving such high numbers of people in such an efficient way that it would be cheaper than the cost of fuel for the same trip (it doesn't envisage most car users getting rid of their car, just using it less).

I'm not saying that's going to work, precisely because he did perhaps overestimated the time savings possible or the love drivers have for their cars even when sitting in traffic, but having read it myself I didn't want people to get the wrong impression and assume this was anything less than a massive undertaking aimed at proper car competition, rather than just a slightly better coach network for those without a car (but who would of course also massively benefit, directly and indirectly).
 

JonathanH

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One of the absolutely key factors is guaranteed connections (i.e. you don't need to buy a new Advance ticket if a connection is missed).
But when the coach runs a few times a day, those connections aren't necessarily guaranteed even if you have a through ticket. Do through coach tickets provide guaranteed connections?
 

Rail_Midlands

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Its Possible and I've seen this in other countries. For example, TamilNadu in India, has this kind of coach stations outside the city centres and is having a 24/7 frequency to connect each and every village in the state (its equal to size of England and comparable population of 80 Millions) The main reason it happened was due to the slow progress of railways and the existing railways could not serve the needs of population (federal government was slow and railways inherent bureaucratic nature). The frequency of coach is usually 3-5 minutes between the cities which includes both government and private coaches. Its People's wish to be integerated with the railways but railways did not heed to this proposal.
 

Bletchleyite

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But when the coach runs a few times a day, those connections aren't necessarily guaranteed even if you have a through ticket. Do through coach tickets provide guaranteed connections?

In the sense that you wouldn't be charged to rebook on the next available coach? I would be surprised if they didn't. With train tickets being (a) very expensive, and (b) increasingly train-specific, this is an absolute essential of an integrated network.
 

RT4038

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Its Possible and I've seen this in other countries. For example, TamilNadu in India, has this kind of coach stations outside the city centres and is having a 24/7 frequency to connect each and every village in the state (its equal to size of England and comparable population of 80 Millions) The main reason it happened was due to the slow progress of railways and the existing railways could not serve the needs of population (federal government was slow and railways inherent bureaucratic nature). The frequency of coach is usually 3-5 minutes between the cities which includes both government and private coaches. Its People's wish to be integerated with the railways but railways did not heed to this proposal.
It is also a similar feature of many South American countries, all of which have by and large abandoned their passenger railways (except for purely suburban/metro operations). Of course, whether the circumstances there translate to this country is a moot point.
 

Rail_Midlands

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It is also a similar feature of many South American countries, all of which have by and large abandoned their passenger railways (except for purely suburban/metro operations). Of course, whether the circumstances there translate to this country is a moot point.
The funny thing is, this state (Tamilnadu) did not abandon the railways , they actually need more rail frequency but the railways didn't bother , even though the rail density per capita is better than England (the original rail development in late 1800 helps), its very poor frequency and ultra slow development made this. There were some record developments during that era, for ex. Erode to Trichy(88 Miles) gauge conversion from Metre to Broad Gauge was done in a single night with British Engineers fine planning and execution during 1929. Not sure whether rail can catch up, because of the very fast motorway development and car ownership figures now.
 

Meerkat

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Which is why that's what this proposal offered. High frequency (turn up and go) coaches with rapid transfers and priority over traffic congestion such that their end to end journey times would approach the journey time in a car,
Coaches still have to go slower than cars and stay out of the fast lane don’t they??
if they are pulling off and stopping at every junction near a big town they are going to be pretty slow.
 

Starmill

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If a ticket isn't sold online in 2024 it might as well not exist.
I believe they can be sold online, but there’s nobody willing to upload the bus schedule to and from Inverness.


That's the schedule for Inverness Bus Station, blank.

Quite how we're in the situation where the Arriva bus to Mira Technology Park is in the data but nothing from City link is I don't know. The buses between Aberystwyth and Bangor were uploaded by TfW for a bit then vanished again. Presumably because the bus operator didn't want people using what were previously train only tickets on them e.g. Machynlleth - Aberystwyth.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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Spain has a comprehensive inter-city coach network - using high-quality vehicles and very reasonable fares - thanks to the extensive autopista (motorway) network. They are very useful for filling gaps in the railway network or where the railway is very slow and indirect such as the narrow gauge lines of the northern coast. The coach stations are usually way out of the city-centres which is great for avoiding traffic congestion but can be a bit of a nuisance. In Bilbao you have to take the metro, Granada the tram, Salamanca Shank's pony. In Badajoz the rail and coach stations are so far apart (about 2.5 miles) I had to resort to a taxi.
 

Llandudno

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Perhaps a network of Sunday coach services in the north of England would be a start…

Manchester - Northwich - Chester
Manchester Victoria - Chester
Manchester - Stoke
Colne - Preston - Blackpool South
Manchester - Southport
Liverpool - Blackpool

Seeing as Northern can’t be bother to run any trains…!
 

TUC

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As you may be able to figure out, a single journey will require multiple changes en-route.
In other words, he hasn't got a clue what would be commercially attractive to passengers, especially the car drivers he wish to attract.
 

miklcct

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In other words, he hasn't got a clue what would be commercially attractive to passengers, especially the car drivers he wish to attract.
It's only by working this way it will be possible to provide a coach network of metro frequency services, making coach travel time competitive, like taking the tube.
 

GusB

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My first reaction to this: who is Alan Storkey and may I have some of the stuff that he's been smoking? ;)

He proposes hundreds of coach stations ( "Coachway Transfer Stations", or simply "coachway") built at the junctions of the strategic road network (motorways and trunk routes). A massive order of magnitude increase in the coach fleet, and with these coaches only ever running on the strategic road network, sees them making rapid transfers at the coachways with each other, and with what he calls "gathering" methods (how to get people to the coachways), to move people around much faster than the existing network.

For a start, "strategic road network" makes the assumption that everyone has access to a motorway or fast dual-carriageway. Even if I were lucky enough to have access to such a road, how to I get to the "coachway"? I imagine that access for pedestrians and cyclists will be difficult, if not impossible. Is there a guaranteed connecting bus that'll take me into the town centre? Will it cost me any more to use this connecting bus, or is it additional? What if I don't live in the centre of town and have to catch another bus to get there? That's two changes before I even get to the coach, and possibly another two at the other end. That's before I have to consider any "rapid transfers" if the coach I want doesn't take a direct route.

Oh wait - he's answered these questions:
The infrastructure for this change centres on Coachway interchanges at major road and motorway junctions. These need careful design. They must not be “Park and Ride” or the areas would be clogged with cars.
Sorry, but there needs to be some provision for cars, even if it's just for pick-up or drop-off; not everyone is going to have access to an easy bus route and some people may wish to actually park and ride if they don't live in the town that the coachway is designed to serve.

The coach to coach movements must be fluent and rapid. There should be flat entry and exit, pleasant seating and facilities, and easy transfer.
It's not clear where the "flat entry and exit" is in this case; does he mean flat entry and exit to the coaches themselves? If this is the case, almost the entire coach fleet would have to be re-designed to facilitate this. I've made numerous journeys where a change of coach is necessary along the way and on most occasions the transfer of passengers and luggage from one to the other has been fairly swift; however, it has not always been the case.

Who oversees the pleasant seating and facilities and will there be some body that ensures that standards are met?

While it's by no means a recent event, one that sticks in my mind is a Megabus journey from Inverness to Glasgow where a change was required at Broxden Park and Ride outside Perth; my Edinburgh-bound coach arrived and departed on time, but the Glasgow-bound coach that I was supposed to transfer to was late, leaving passengers freezing in a cold car park with absolutely no facilities available. Had it been in the centre of Perth I'd at least have had the option of visiting a local hostelry for some heat and refreshment.

Crucial is the gathering system to the Coachway.
Absolutely. It's crucial, but who makes sure the gathering system actually works? See the above example.

Buses, coaches, shuttles from rail links and bike parks must be designed to provide the fast full journey times to and from homes. Coachways will be gathering local populations of often 100-500,000 into the national system of mass road transit. Fortunately the land for these Coachways is often available at motorway intersections.
Shuttles from rail links? What?! Surely the shuttles should be to rail links so that the trains do the heavy lifting? Having bike parks is laudable, but how far away from the centres of population are these coachways?

I couldn't really be bothered to read the rest of the article.

I realise that you've addressed some of these points in the opening post, but this is really pie-in-the-sky.
 

Ghostbus

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Yeah I think most of your questions were answered in the document or my first post.

Long story short, this is a massive project where a government department or arms length body overseas a coachway building programme that they then manage, a ten fold increase in the coach fleet (designed specifically for this system) to service it, and (what would be by today's standards) significant improvements to local public transport to facilitate the "gathering".

Hence my idea that this could be a job for GBR under a Labour government intent on getting the country moving and tearing up the planning rules and deploying capital investment raised on the never never to do it. The Tories certainly wouldn't do it. The Greens would sell their mother's for it.

Whether it would work is the issue. Your post raised a couple of things I hadn't thought of.

On the one hand, there might not be as much work require on gathering than you might assume. In my specific case, and it is perhaps quite typical, my nearest National Express stop is a 25 minutes bus ride away. But because coaches are given low importance in local transport, walking with a wheeled suitcase to my local bus stop is actually easier than the walk from the town centre bus stop to the coach station (whose comforts are essentially only being indoors - I certainly wouldn't count on there even being a working toilet, vending machine or even a comfortable seat).

By contrast, my nearest strategic road network junction is just two stops in the other direction on the same bus. This is precisely because of the fact these specific roads were designed to skirt close to most major population centres. In my case, it's essentially an urban bypass. I dare say quite a few people are in this situation, but they never realised it because who ever needs to take a public transport journey to their nearest strategic road junction?' I'd take the bus over walking because in this system it would drive right into the coachway, probably terminating there. I could also cycle, since the road junction has been integrated into the footpath network, which this system would upgrade to dual use near the coachway, connecting it to the wider cycle network.
However, and it is a very big however, that would be quite impossible because that particular road junction is built around on all sides. But all is not lost. Although it wouldn't be at the junction, heading out of town on the radial trunk road, you reach an open field having travelled only a quarter of the distance from the junction into town in the opposite direction. Even now that would only add 6 minutes to the journey time of a coach traveling along the bypass route, but under this system, since the coach can use the hardshoulder and gets immediate priority at the traffic lights, that drops to 2 minutes max, even in rush hour. I could still get to that coachway quite easily on the same bus, and on the bike. And while it no longer makes for an attractive walk, it would still be quicker than the bus journey to the town centre coach station (especially if adding on the time for the coach to drive into town).

Even before its half finished, this system allegedly creates a feedback loop whereby the coach becomes more attractive with each car journey it removes from the strategic road network. It's not replacing all car journeys, much less car ownership, but hopefully means the journeys that are still necessary are also quicker.

You could, for example, envision a future where car parking at your office is impossible or prohibitively taxed, such that for the two times a week you actually go there, using this coach network is just as quick, even if the journey is bus-coach-coach-bus (e.g. Bury St. Edmonds to Milton Keynes). Even if it isn't just as quick, the fact the coach is designed to be used as a hot desk, would be a draw.

I picked Bury St. Edmunds to Milton Keynes at random, but also because it's local to you (afaik) and seems to be the kind of commute that is becoming more popular in the wfh era. This shows where the system is designed to compete with the roads and augment the railway network rather than compete with it. The train takes over 3 hours to do that journey, even though both have stations, because the railways were designed for trips to/from London. Incredibly, although I didn't research It in detail but It sounds about right, a train via London is still quicker than going by bus or coach.

It is only a 75 mile trip on the strategic road network, but the fact that already takes 90 minutes in a car in the off peak, shows how badly congested the roads are these days. The rule of thumb being a mile a minute is a decent speed for a private car journey, faster on motorways.

It feels silly to say it given the world of today, but if you assume a car/taxi drop off at Bury St. Edmunds Coachway, for a turn up and go coach departure, then full traffic priority for the two coach journeys and at the interchange (presumably near Cambridge), and a turn up and go bus service from MK coachway to your final destination, all for a cheaper price than the cost of fuel and parking, you're hopefully getting to the point a car commuter starts to wonder....

....then again, probably not. Because people, especially comfortably well off people, will happily sit in slow moving or even stationary traffic for a surprising amount of time, and pay a surprising amount, if they're in their own car. Even if nice modern well equipped coaches are whooshing past them every few minutes. Something the report doesn't really acknowledge (indeed, seems to assume the complete opposite).
 

PTR 444

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I think there would definitely be merit in GBR creating a strategic coach network to integrate with the existing railway network, allowing passengers to buy through tickets for combined coach/rail journeys.

The big question is whether you design the routes to only link rail-less places with their nearest railhead, or extend them to larger settlements to make them more feasible.

For example, Axminster to Dorchester is a significant gap in the rail network and a GBR operated express coach between the two could become part of a valid route between Exeter and Bournemouth.

Similarly, a Poole to Bath coach service could cut the corner for Bournemouth to Bristol rail journeys, with the benefit of serving intermediate towns en route (Wimborne, Blandford, Shaftesbury, Gillingham, Frome etc) and putting them into the railway ticketing database.

I can also see integrated coaches working for heavily trafficked flows without a direct rail link between them, such as the towns on the M1 south of Leicester. Even Leicester - Luton (town) doesn’t have a direct rail service for most of the day despite being on the same line, so you could run a coach service between them that alternates between calling at Rugby, Northampton and Milton Keynes. This would give the southern M1 towns a proper link between the WCML and MML.
 
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gc4946

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I think there would definitely be merit in GBR creating a strategic coach network to integrate with the existing railway network, allowing passengers to buy through tickets for combined coach/rail journeys.

The big question is whether you design the routes to only link rail-less places with their nearest railhead, or extend them to larger settlements to make them more feasible.

For example, Axminster to Dorchester is a significant gap in the rail network and a GBR operated express coach between the two could become part of a valid route between Exeter and Bournemouth.

Similarly, a Poole to Bath coach service could cut the corner for Bournemouth to Bristol rail journeys, with the benefit of serving intermediate towns en route (Wimborne, Blandford, Shaftesbury, Gillingham, Frome etc) and putting them into the railway ticketing database.
Some existing bus routes could be designated as such:

Stagecoach Midlands X4 Northampton-Peterborough via Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby
First Eastern Counties Excel Peterborough-Norwich via Wisbech, Kings Lynn, Swaffham and Dereham
Stagecoach X4/X5 Workington-Penrith via Cockermouth and Keswick (I think it could be extended via Appleby, Kirkby Stephen then the A66 diverting at Barnard Castle and terminating in Darlington)
 
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Megafuss

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There is a place in British Isles that already does this...Northern Ireland and traffic levels in and around Belfast are atrocious.

That's not to take away how excellent the network is, with strategic park and ride sites. But apart from AM/PM peaks in and out of the capital as well as the Dublin and Derry links. Nobody uses them.
 
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