Should First use trainee drivers in service?

[Ballyheigue]

On a number of occasions in the past few months, I've had the misfortune of having to put up with a trainee driver who is running really late simply because they don't know what they're doing well enough to keep to time. Roughly 6 months to a year ago, I caught a number 65 in Morley heading to South Leeds what actually shouldn't have been allocated a trainee, but had one allocated in error, and do I wish that error hadn't had happened. I noticed whilst in Morley, his inbound run was 20 minutes late towards Gildersome, by the time he arrived back to pick me up, that turned into 30 minutes late and by the time I got dropped of, that turned into 40 minutes late. His mentor was on the phone whilst I was on asking for permission to drop the next journey so they could catch up! In fairness, the mentor was really apologetic to both the trainee and passengers, explaining that they had been given the route in error, apparently because it's such a difficult route, it shouldn't have been put on the trainee rota. What he also went on to say was that he isn't allowed to take over to keep the service to time.

Yesterday, I caught a late running 52 into Leeds that had a trainee and mentor, it arrived in late from it's inbound journey then set off late and just got later and later, I wish I'd have waited for the next one as that over took near Holbeck. It's bad enough Morley bus services provided by First are often packed during the peak, sparce in frequency to say the least and take forever without the added attraction of a trainee driver and mentor telling them to take their time! If they're even running a minute late, the mentor must take over and they should be fully trained before they leave the depot, they should know the ticket machine inside out, know the route inside out, only need a mentor to check they know what they're doing.

 

[JJM22]

As frustrating as it may be, your suggestion of a mentor immediately taking over isn’t workable. Especially since on the job experience is quite important during training.

Plus, the entire purpose of a mentor is to help train and advise, immediately taking over completely undermines the training and could ruin the confidence of the trainee.

Letting trainees take their time is important too, rushing an inexperienced driver could cause an accident very easily.

But expecting someone to know everything without on the job training will be a rarity.

However, I think that some companies should plan better for trainees, by starting them on simpler and quieter routes to build experience that way.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Back in the day (87-01) , our Bristol trainees would be put on quiet routes for first week before going onto their roster. They would have 2 - 4 days with mentor which included route training.
As a " Leading Driver " as it was later called , I recall hardly ever having to take over and only then on last trip to get relieved.

 

[nick291]

On a number of occasions in the past few months, I've had the misfortune of having to put up with a trainee driver who is running really late simply because they don't know what they're doing well enough to keep to time. Roughly 6 months to a year ago, I caught a number 65 in Morley heading to South Leeds what actually shouldn't have been allocated a trainee, but had one allocated in error, and do I wish that error hadn't had happened. I noticed whilst in Morley, his inbound run was 20 minutes late towards Gildersome, by the time he arrived back to pick me up, that turned into 30 minutes late and by the time I got dropped of, that turned into 40 minutes late. His mentor was on the phone whilst I was on asking for permission to drop the next journey so they could catch up! In fairness, the mentor was really apologetic to both the trainee and passengers, explaining that they had been given the route in error, apparently because it's such a difficult route, it shouldn't have been put on the trainee rota. What he also went on to say was that he isn't allowed to take over to keep the service to time.

Yesterday, I caught a late running 52 into Leeds that had a trainee and mentor, it arrived in late from it's inbound journey then set off late and just got later and later, I wish I'd have waited for the next one as that over took near Holbeck. It's bad enough Morley bus services provided by First are often packed during the peak, sparce in frequency to say the least and take forever without the added attraction of a trainee driver and mentor telling them to take their time! If they're even running a minute late, the mentor must take over and they should be fully trained before they leave the depot, they should know the ticket machine inside out, know the route inside out, only need a mentor to check they know what they're doing.

I understand your frustrations, it happens in Bristol all the time with trainee drivers. However, I'm not sure how they can be reasonably expected to learn the routes/passenger operations if they are not driving supervised with a mentor beside them for a few days/weeks. Even experienced drivers still get it wrong occasionally.

 

[KHCT]

If they're even running a minute late, the mentor must take over

So, that's pretty much every bus then. How exacty do you suggest bus drivers learn how to drive in real world conditions if they are confined to the depot?

 

[liamf656]

As frustrating as it may be, your suggestion of a mentor immediately taking over isn’t workable. Especially since on the job experience is quite important during training.

Plus, the entire purpose of a mentor is to help train and advise, immediately taking over completely undermines the training and could ruin the confidence of the trainee.

Letting trainees take their time is important too, rushing an inexperienced driver could cause an accident very easily.

But expecting someone to know everything without on the job training will be a rarity.

However, I think that some companies should plan better for trainees, by starting them on simpler and quieter routes to build experience that way.

Exactly this. I think the OP is missing the bigger picture here

 

[YorkRailFan]

trainee driver and mentor telling them to take their time! If they're even running a minute late, the mentor must take over

How many times are trained drivers over a minute late? Most bus operators will tell you traffic is the main reason for delays, that's something out of the control of both the mentor and the trainee. Having a mentor takeover only for them to just sit in traffic is pointless.

 

[800001]

On a number of occasions in the past few months, I've had the misfortune of having to put up with a trainee driver who is running really late simply because they don't know what they're doing well enough to keep to time. Roughly 6 months to a year ago, I caught a number 65 in Morley heading to South Leeds what actually shouldn't have been allocated a trainee, but had one allocated in error, and do I wish that error hadn't had happened. I noticed whilst in Morley, his inbound run was 20 minutes late towards Gildersome, by the time he arrived back to pick me up, that turned into 30 minutes late and by the time I got dropped of, that turned into 40 minutes late. His mentor was on the phone whilst I was on asking for permission to drop the next journey so they could catch up! In fairness, the mentor was really apologetic to both the trainee and passengers, explaining that they had been given the route in error, apparently because it's such a difficult route, it shouldn't have been put on the trainee rota. What he also went on to say was that he isn't allowed to take over to keep the service to time.

Yesterday, I caught a late running 52 into Leeds that had a trainee and mentor, it arrived in late from it's inbound journey then set off late and just got later and later, I wish I'd have waited for the next one as that over took near Holbeck. It's bad enough Morley bus services provided by First are often packed during the peak, sparce in frequency to say the least and take forever without the added attraction of a trainee driver and mentor telling them to take their time! If they're even running a minute late, the mentor must take over and they should be fully trained before they leave the depot, they should know the ticket machine inside out, know the route inside out, only need a mentor to check they know what they're doing.

And you know that all the delay is purely due to a trainer driver?

Not because of traffic?
Not because of customers dithering with money, with passes etc?
Not because when the trainee took over that bus of the incoming driver that it was already late?

Yes, let's all blame it on a trainee, where the only real way to learn it is by doing the job of driving the route with people on board.

 

[Busman792]

As a driver mentor myself with one of the other large groups, I have several thoughts on what you raise. It is very important for new, trainee drivers to get as much experience as they can while out on the roads with a mentor. Not only of issuing tickets but also of driving the fleet operated and of driving the routes. The more a mentor takes over, the less the trainee is able to learn. Paying close attention from the saloon affords a very different view and experience to that of being in the cab and actually driving. Being in that driving seat as much as possible is so important. Yes, they may be slower than their more experienced mentor might be, but it's early days for them. Drivers will be late sooner or later regardless of if it's their first day on the actual job or they're 20 years in. It happens. That's something trainees need to get used to and, frankly, the travelling public should expect to a certain extent. A new driver may not be familiar with the area he or she is now working in, still don't have a huge amount of driving hours for particular vehicle types under their belt or are not yet fully clued up on the ticket machine. Add to that traffic issues, any diversions or the possibility the bus was already running late when it was brought it for them by a previous driver. If an earlier working of a service was cancelled for whatever reason, irate passengers enquiring as to it's fate or taking time to complain further slows things down from time to time.

Personally, I only tend to take over if the trainee is getting clearly distressed over something (this could impact their driving) or if the standard of driving being demonstrated is edging towards being dangerous. If it's still early days with someone and we have a school contract to operate, based on running times leading up to it then at that point I may also take over just to ensure we get to the children on time. Controllers understand new starters won't be the quickest and should support mentors with allowing them to get on with it. The mentor in this case contacting control about potentially dropping the next trip is the right course of action I believe. It's unfortunate that some experienced drivers sometimes fail to remember they were new once. There have been instances where colleagues of mine have rudely had a go at myself and the trainee for being late. Such attitudes help no one.

It is important a trainee take their time and feel like they are able to take their time. What they are driving is a lethal weapon. Feeling pressured to rush and gain time back is a recipe for disasters. Rushing issuing tickets will lead to mistakes, potentially negative interactions with the public, the loss of more time sorting things out and potentially knowledge gaps that will result in the same issues going on to occur frequently. Most operators regardless of size do not have the time or resources to spare for people to learn routes 'out of service'. Nor would trying to learn the ticket machine in the same manner help. While some basic ticket training may be given during the driving school stage or learning, this is often done in a centralised location. Individual depots will often have different ticketing options based on their local areas etc. A lot can only be learnt once a trainee is at their actual depot of work. Further to this, learning this part of the role 'on the job' so to speak enables the trainee to understand how the travelling public ask for certain tickets etc, approach things so on and so forth.

Companies recruit because they need to fill a position. They want that new trainee out on their own as soon as possible, they don't want them stuck with someone being shown the ropes forever and a day. Doing ticket training and route learning separately and not in public service can drag the whole process out even longer. A lot of companies will allocate trainees quieter routes/shifts, both while with a mentor and during their first few weeks on their own. That's not always the case though, sometimes people are allocated wrongly or shifts are taken on in the interest of experience.

The job will not always be for everyone, but everyone who qualifies should be given a fair crack at it. That sense should be given not only from colleagues but also from the travelling public, and even other road users. Doing so might break the cycle in some areas of a never-ending rotation of trainees who never seem to stay. Experience will come in time. Next time you find yourself onboard a vehicle driven by a trainee driver, thank them for their efforts when you get off and wish them well. It may actually make a difference.

 

[Ballyheigue]

And you know that all the delay is purely due to a trainer driver?

Not because of traffic?
Not because of customers dithering with money, with passes etc?
Not because when the trainee took over that bus of the incoming driver that it was already late?

Yes, let's all blame it on a trainee, where the only real way to learn it is by doing the job of driving the route with people on board.

Well, Miss Daisy drove quicker and I'm sure she would have known the ticket machine inside out too. It had nothing what so ever to do with traffic and everything to do with an over cautious nervous driver. The incoming driver was the trainee by the way.

 

[AilsaBus]

Well, Miss Daisy drove quicker and I'm sure she would have known the ticket machine inside out too. It had nothing what so ever to do with traffic and everything to do with an over cautious nervous driver. The incoming driver was the trainee by the way.

So how do you suggest a new driver learns a route whilst using the ticket machine and dealing with people?!

 

[mattb7tl]

I have the same operator as the original poster and it is certainly an issue. I don't see why new drivers can't be limited to services with friendly amounts of padding and venture onto the more difficult services as they progress with their mentors.

It appears other bus companies handle this issue better like Arriva. I notice new new drivers starting out on the 202/3, a service which probably has a bit too much padding, before they progress onto the tighter services.

 

[Ballyheigue]

Right, a few points to answer for various things highlighted. Firstly, First should train all trainee drivers in how to use the ticket machine before trainees even start off learning a route, that can easily be done in the privacy of the training room with trainers asking trainees to select all types of fares as part of an intensive exam at the end. Secondly, route learning on five routes should be part of the trainee's training before they actually do any of those routes for real, this should be done in the privacy of the training environment using simulators, given the accuracy of Google Maps that's not a bad option either. You can even take a bus out on the road with trainees on following those five routes for real. There is no need what so ever for a trainee to learn on the job. It all seems to be a bit of a rush them in and see how they do job, more importantly why should the public be late when ever a trainee drives, and in Leeds that's plenty of times? Back in the days of Yorkshire Rider, I never saw a trainee being trained on the job. It's got nothing what so ever to do with traffic and more to do with First taking short cuts instead of doing more in depth training before allowing a trainee loose in public, the trainees simply aren't up to the standard expected to keep a route to time.

As a side note, in adult social care we don't allow anyone to do the job for real until 6 full weeks of shadow training has happened whereby normal staff do all the work, and trainees watch and learn, they are then assessed for a day by management to see if what they have learned has sunk in, only then are they expected to be able to do the job and even then they are further assessed for a few days by staff before being allowed to do it on their own.

 

[liamf656]

Right, a few points to answer for various things highlighted. Firstly, First should train all trainee drivers in how to use the ticket machine before trainees even start off learning a route, that can easily be done in the privacy of the training room with trainers asking trainees to select all types of fares as part of an intensive exam at the end. Secondly, route learning on five routes should be part of the trainee's training before they actually do any of those routes for real, this should be done in the privacy of the training environment using simulators, given the accuracy of Google Maps that's not a bad option either. You can even take a bus out on the road with trainees on following those five routes for real. There is no need what so ever for a trainee to learn on the job. It all seems to be a bit of a rush them in and see how they do job, more importantly why should the public be late when ever a trainee drives, and in Leeds that's plenty of times? Back in the days of Yorkshire Rider, I never saw a trainee being trained on the job. It's got nothing what so ever to do with traffic and more to do with First taking short cuts instead of doing more in depth training before allowing a trainee loose in public, the trainees simply aren't up to the standard expected to keep a route to time.

Howndo you know they aren't trained on ticket machines before being let out on the road? The best learning is with experience. Firstgroup cutting corners with their training is quite a bold assumption to make. Allowing trainees to work in passenger service is industry standard and has been for decades with no real issues (and no, a bus being 5 minutes late is not an issue). By your reckoning a trainee should do 100% of their training before being let loose in service on their own, am I right? If so, on their first day they'll be the same cautious new starter they would have been if they were let out with a mentor, except they are now on their own without the assistance. Can you see why that's a terrible idea?

As a side note, in adult social care we don't allow anyone to do the job for real until 6 full weeks of shadow training has happened whereby normal staff do all the work, and trainees watch and learn, they are then assessed for a day by management to see if what they have learned has sunk in, only then are they expected to be able to do the job and even then they are further assessed for a few days by staff before being allowed to do it on their own.

Social care and bus driving cannot be comparable at all so your last paragraph is irrelevant

 

[AilsaBus]

Right, a few points to answer for various things highlighted. Firstly, First should train all trainee drivers in how to use the ticket machine before trainees even start off learning a route, that can easily be done in the privacy of the training room with trainers asking trainees to select all types of fares as part of an intensive exam at the end. Secondly, route learning on five routes should be part of the trainee's training before they actually do any of those routes for real, this should be done in the privacy of the training environment using simulators, given the accuracy of Google Maps that's not a bad option either. You can even take a bus out on the road with trainees on following those five routes for real. There is no need what so ever for a trainee to learn on the job. It all seems to be a bit of a rush them in and see how they do job, more importantly why should the public be late when ever a trainee drives, and in Leeds that's plenty of times? Back in the days of Yorkshire Rider, I never saw a trainee being trained on the job. It's got nothing what so ever to do with traffic and more to do with First taking short cuts instead of doing more in depth training before allowing a trainee loose in public, the trainees simply aren't up to the standard expected to keep a route to time.

As a side note, in adult social care we don't allow anyone to do the job for real until 6 full weeks of shadow training has happened whereby normal staff do all the work, and trainees watch and learn, they are then assessed for a day by management to see if what they have learned has sunk in, only then are they expected to be able to do the job and even then they are further assessed for a few days by staff before being allowed to do it on their own.

Naw mate, you're wrong, on the job training is absolutley necessary. How are you going to learn to deal with unpredictable situations sitting a classroom?!

 

[nick291]

Right, a few points to answer for various things highlighted. Firstly, First should train all trainee drivers in how to use the ticket machine before trainees even start off learning a route, that can easily be done in the privacy of the training room with trainers asking trainees to select all types of fares as part of an intensive exam at the end. Secondly, route learning on five routes should be part of the trainee's training before they actually do any of those routes for real, this should be done in the privacy of the training environment using simulators, given the accuracy of Google Maps that's not a bad option either. You can even take a bus out on the road with trainees on following those five routes for real. There is no need what so ever for a trainee to learn on the job. It all seems to be a bit of a rush them in and see how they do job, more importantly why should the public be late when ever a trainee drives, and in Leeds that's plenty of times? Back in the days of Yorkshire Rider, I never saw a trainee being trained on the job. It's got nothing what so ever to do with traffic and more to do with First taking short cuts instead of doing more in depth training before allowing a trainee loose in public, the trainees simply aren't up to the standard expected to keep a route to time.

As a side note, in adult social care we don't allow anyone to do the job for real until 6 full weeks of shadow training has happened whereby normal staff do all the work, and trainees watch and learn, they are then assessed for a day by management to see if what they have learned has sunk in, only then are they expected to be able to do the job and even then they are further assessed for a few days by staff before being allowed to do it on their own.

How long do you think it takes to put a driver through the actual training for a bus? I'm not talking on routes, I'm on about from applying, securing the job, applying for a provisional CAT D license, going through the CPC course, medical and then the practical training allowing them to get behind the wheel before being allowed out to train on the routes. When Lawrence Hill depot in Bristol had an open day 7 or 8 years ago they showed us how they train drivers and a room where they train on the ticket machines, I can imagine First in West Yorkshire is much the same. Also they take training buses out to do recce runs of the routes for their training before being allowed to deal with passengers/mentored up in service. Also Google maps doesn't take into account the height of a bus or lorry, why do you think the HGV industry has so many bridge strikes? The public can also be late with an experienced driver as others have pointed out, so I'm not sure what your point is there. The social care industry and the bus industry are not comparable as they both have different operational needs.

 

[800001]

How long do you think it takes to put a driver through the actual training for a bus? I'm not talking on routes, I'm on about from applying, securing the job, applying for a provisional CAT D license, going through the CPC course, medical and then the practical training allowing them to get behind the wheel before being allowed out to train on the routes. When Lawrence Hill depot in Bristol had an open day 7 or 8 years ago they showed us how they train drivers and a room where they train on the ticket machines, I can imagine First in West Yorkshire is much the same. Also they take training buses out to do recce runs of the routes for their training before being allowed to deal with passengers/mentored up in service. Also Google maps doesn't take into account the height of a bus or lorry, why do you think the HGV industry has so many bridge strikes? The public can also be late with an experienced driver as others have pointed out, so I'm not sure what your point is there. The social care industry and the bus industry are not comparable as they both have different operational needs.

Arriva, certainly in the north east, training school is 3-4 weeks training how to drive a bus and doing Pcv, cpc, theory etc.

From then it is on to your depot for 3-4 weeks route learning and driving with a mentor.
1st week they aim for about 7 hours driving, progressively increasing over the following weeks.

 

[nick291]

Arriva, certainly in the north east, training school is 3-4 weeks training how to drive a bus and doing Pcv, cpc, theory etc.

From then it is on to your depot for 3-4 weeks route learning and driving with a mentor.
1st week they aim for about 7 hours driving, progressively increasing over the following weeks.

So that's about 6-8 weeks overall, same as OP has described for social care which is a completely different industry with different needs.

 

[GusB]

Right, a few points to answer for various things highlighted. Firstly, First should train all trainee drivers in how to use the ticket machine before trainees even start off learning a route, that can easily be done in the privacy of the training room with trainers asking trainees to select all types of fares as part of an intensive exam at the end.

30 years ago my Safeway checkout training was fairly comprehensive, but it didn't prevent us from experiencing the odd curveball. You can't train for every single eventuality.

Secondly, route learning on five routes should be part of the trainee's training before they actually do any of those routes for real, this should be done in the privacy of the training environment using simulators, given the accuracy of Google Maps that's not a bad option either. You can even take a bus out on the road with trainees on following those five routes for real. There is no need what so ever for a trainee to learn on the job.

The best way for trainees to learn is to do it on the job. Simulators are expensive and they haven't always existed.

It all seems to be a bit of a rush them in and see how they do job, more importantly why should the public be late when ever a trainee drives, and in Leeds that's plenty of times? Back in the days of Yorkshire Rider, I never saw a trainee being trained on the job.

Just because you didn't see someone being trained on the job doesn't mean that it didn't happen. I've had many a journey where a new driver was being trained and fellow passengers were fairly accepting of the situation.

It's got nothing what so ever to do with traffic and more to do with First taking short cuts instead of doing more in depth training before allowing a trainee loose in public, the trainees simply aren't up to the standard expected to keep a route to time.

Traffic has much to do with buses running late. A more experienced driver has no more power to get rid of traffic than a trainee does.

As a side note, in adult social care we don't allow anyone to do the job for real until 6 full weeks of shadow training has happened whereby normal staff do all the work, and trainees watch and learn, they are then assessed for a day by management to see if what they have learned has sunk in, only then are they expected to be able to do the job and even then they are further assessed for a few days by staff before being allowed to do it on their own.

Apples and oranges!

 

[mayneway]

Some of the comments here are well , hilarious!

Having previously been a mentor myself all I can say is that it’s very important new drivers experience a range of busy and less busy routes. It’s very easy as a new or novice driver to be on a busy service and go into panic mode when you start to get late and start making basic driving and ticket mistakes that could result in accidents etc so while it is slightly frustrating for passengers it’s a must for any new driver.

I have the same annoyance at car learner drivers being taken out at evening rush hour, it’s annoying but I get it’s to get them use to busy gridlocked roads.

The bus industry is experiencing a major shortage of drivers and we should be grateful people are coming through the ranks and still learning the job.

 

[Kaliwax]

Arriva Yorkshire have introduced a policy of recently having after passed their test in having a dedicated bus at each depot, so new drivers go out with a trainer, so they can learn ticketer, bus routes without the hassle of passengers.

For those accusing First of cutting corners, I'd watch your mouth if I was you, I'm sure management of bus companies read these forums, and I'm sure they would not be happy at being accused of cutting corners with trainees.

At the same time they certainly need to experience both busy and quiet routes. Are you saying new drivers shouldn't be have to be trained in the real world? Blaming trainees for a bus being late just seems utterly ridiculous to me. How can they be able to deal with difficult situations by sitting in a classroom?

Maybe the ones complaining about the trainees, should perhaps apply for the job themselves and see how hard the job it is for themselves.

Having the mentor take over if they are a minute, seems a ridiculous idea, how are the trainees supposed to learn if mentors take over every time a bus is a minute late. Experienced drivers are a minute late all the time, why don't you suggest bus drivers should be given a disciplinary every time a bus a minute is late?

Give bus drivers, companies, and trainees, some slack, and you should be thanking them for taking a difficult job, and rising through the ranks, still major driver shortages going on.

 

[800001]

Arriva Yorkshire have introduced a policy of recently having after passed their test in having a dedicated bus at each depot, so new drivers go out with a trainer, so they can learn ticketer, bus routes without the hassle of passengers.

For those accusing First of cutting corners, I'd watch your mouth if I was you, I'm sure management of bus companies read these forums, and I'm sure they would not be happy at being accused of cutting corners with trainees.

At the same time they certainly need to experience both busy and quiet routes. Are you saying new drivers shouldn't be have to be trained in the real world? Blaming trainees for a bus being late just seems utterly ridiculous to me. How can they be able to deal with difficult situations by sitting in a classroom?

Maybe the ones complaining about the trainees, should perhaps apply for the job themselves and see how hard the job it is for themselves.

Having the mentor take over if they are a minute, seems a ridiculous idea, how are the trainees supposed to learn if mentors take over every time a bus is a minute late. Experienced drivers are a minute late all the time, why don't you suggest bus drivers should be given a disciplinary every time a bus a minute is late?

Give bus drivers, companies, and trainees, some slack, and you should be thanking them for taking a difficult job, and rising through the ranks, still major driver shortages going on.

I believe Arriva are introducing 'Garage/Depot trainers' at all depots, which is what you refer to in your post.

Certainly this role is active at Redcar and Durham and is advertised internally at Darlington.

The trainee and depot trainer go out on an empty bus and drive and learn all the relevant routes for a couple of weeks, once they are happy, they then go with a mentor into the 'real' world with customers on board for another couple for weeks before they are signed off.

 

[WirralLine]

Going back 10 years when I did my bus license with Stagecoach... it was a few weeks learning to drive, doing theory tests, practical etc. We did go over the routes in the training bus while learning to drive so we had a basic knowledge of the routes. Not a problem for me as I had been using them as a passenger since I was born. Then it was classroom based ticket machine training, company policies, procedures etc.

I had plenty of confidence driving the bus, I had plenty of confidence using the machine. Then it came to the first week out with a mentor. My lord what a shock that was. Juggling timings, routes, vehicle characteristics, passengers wishing to board, stopping for the bell, issuing tickets, getting the hang of fare stages and how to find the right fare. As mentioned above everybody asks for fares differently, or ask for a single to a pub which has been gone for 10 years, or dont know what ticket they want at all. It took me a couple of months to settle in properly and build up enough experience to balance everything right and keep to time. Its not easy for a newbie, and no, learning everything in a classroom and being thrown out straight into a service would not work. My mentor didnt take over once, and im glad he didnt because otherwise I wouldnt have built up confidence and sussed things out for myself.

I dont really see it as any different to training in any other job. People have to learn somehow and the best way to do that is by doing the job and finding their own way with support from a mentor.

 

[43055]

On a number of occasions in the past few months, I've had the misfortune of having to put up with a trainee driver who is running really late simply because they don't know what they're doing well enough to keep to time. Roughly 6 months to a year ago, I caught a number 65 in Morley heading to South Leeds what actually shouldn't have been allocated a trainee, but had one allocated in error, and do I wish that error hadn't had happened. I noticed whilst in Morley, his inbound run was 20 minutes late towards Gildersome, by the time he arrived back to pick me up, that turned into 30 minutes late and by the time I got dropped of, that turned into 40 minutes late. His mentor was on the phone whilst I was on asking for permission to drop the next journey so they could catch up! In fairness, the mentor was really apologetic to both the trainee and passengers, explaining that they had been given the route in error, apparently because it's such a difficult route, it shouldn't have been put on the trainee rota. What he also went on to say was that he isn't allowed to take over to keep the service to time.

Yesterday, I caught a late running 52 into Leeds that had a trainee and mentor, it arrived in late from it's inbound journey then set off late and just got later and later, I wish I'd have waited for the next one as that over took near Holbeck. It's bad enough Morley bus services provided by First are often packed during the peak, sparce in frequency to say the least and take forever without the added attraction of a trainee driver and mentor telling them to take their time! If they're even running a minute late, the mentor must take over and they should be fully trained before they leave the depot, they should know the ticket machine inside out, know the route inside out, only need a mentor to check they know what they're doing.

For me the best experience was actually learning on the job with the public. There is only so much you can do in a training environment which for me they did simulate a fictional route with a timetable and ticket machine but you can only do so much.

When I moved to the depot I followed the rota of the mentor to begin with which for the first day I did lose time but I was getting use to the bus and dealing with passengers and the passengers did understand. Some of it was down to traffic as well as there was roadworks on the route. Occasionally the mentor did a run to help out in the beginning but it was mostly myself driving and the mentor giving guidance where required and over time I built my confidence where I was able to keep close to time. What the mentor should not do is take over when your a minute late as it gives the trainee experience on being late and ensures they don't rush to make up time and potentially have an accident or make an error on the ticket machine for example. A few months down the line I spend most of the time late that it is a nice surprise when I am on time or slightly early.

 

[coach fan]

Full size simulators cost a bomb! Do you think an industry that runs on wafer thin profits and subsidies as it is, can afford simulators when the same thing can be done on a real bus, whilst at the same time making the company money?

 

[mayneway]

Full size simulators cost a bomb! Do you think an industry that runs on wafer thin profits and subsidies as it is, can afford simulators when the same thing can be done on a real bus, whilst at the same time making the company money?

Haha, couldn’t agree more.

Plus, no simulator or training bus prepares you for the real world, where no two days are the same.

 

[gazmark]

As a driver mentor myself with one of the other large groups, I have several thoughts on what you raise. It is very important for new, trainee drivers to get as much experience as they can while out on the roads with a mentor. Not only of issuing tickets but also of driving the fleet operated and of driving the routes. The more a mentor takes over, the less the trainee is able to learn. Paying close attention from the saloon affords a very different view and experience to that of being in the cab and actually driving. Being in that driving seat as much as possible is so important. Yes, they may be slower than their more experienced mentor might be, but it's early days for them. Drivers will be late sooner or later regardless of if it's their first day on the actual job or they're 20 years in. It happens. That's something trainees need to get used to and, frankly, the travelling public should expect to a certain extent. A new driver may not be familiar with the area he or she is now working in, still don't have a huge amount of driving hours for particular vehicle types under their belt or are not yet fully clued up on the ticket machine. Add to that traffic issues, any diversions or the possibility the bus was already running late when it was brought it for them by a previous driver. If an earlier working of a service was cancelled for whatever reason, irate passengers enquiring as to it's fate or taking time to complain further slows things down from time to time.

Personally, I only tend to take over if the trainee is getting clearly distressed over something (this could impact their driving) or if the standard of driving being demonstrated is edging towards being dangerous. If it's still early days with someone and we have a school contract to operate, based on running times leading up to it then at that point I may also take over just to ensure we get to the children on time. Controllers understand new starters won't be the quickest and should support mentors with allowing them to get on with it. The mentor in this case contacting control about potentially dropping the next trip is the right course of action I believe. It's unfortunate that some experienced drivers sometimes fail to remember they were new once. There have been instances where colleagues of mine have rudely had a go at myself and the trainee for being late. Such attitudes help no one.

It is important a trainee take their time and feel like they are able to take their time. What they are driving is a lethal weapon. Feeling pressured to rush and gain time back is a recipe for disasters. Rushing issuing tickets will lead to mistakes, potentially negative interactions with the public, the loss of more time sorting things out and potentially knowledge gaps that will result in the same issues going on to occur frequently. Most operators regardless of size do not have the time or resources to spare for people to learn routes 'out of service'. Nor would trying to learn the ticket machine in the same manner help. While some basic ticket training may be given during the driving school stage or learning, this is often done in a centralised location. Individual depots will often have different ticketing options based on their local areas etc. A lot can only be learnt once a trainee is at their actual depot of work. Further to this, learning this part of the role 'on the job' so to speak enables the trainee to understand how the travelling public ask for certain tickets etc, approach things so on and so forth.

Companies recruit because they need to fill a position. They want that new trainee out on their own as soon as possible, they don't want them stuck with someone being shown the ropes forever and a day. Doing ticket training and route learning separately and not in public service can drag the whole process out even longer. A lot of companies will allocate trainees quieter routes/shifts, both while with a mentor and during their first few weeks on their own. That's not always the case though, sometimes people are allocated wrongly or shifts are taken on in the interest of experience.

The job will not always be for everyone, but everyone who qualifies should be given a fair crack at it. That sense should be given not only from colleagues but also from the travelling public, and even other road users. Doing so might break the cycle in some areas of a never-ending rotation of trainees who never seem to stay. Experience will come in time. Next time you find yourself onboard a vehicle driven by a trainee driver, thank them for their efforts when you get off and wish them well. It may actually make a difference.

That is a brilliant summary sir and like all jobs in life it will take a time to learn

 

[scosutsut]

As annoying as it might be to have a driver learning the ropes, I'd imagine it's infinitely preferable to the journey being cancelled, or the route being cancelled outright because they haven't got enough staff.

 

[Man of Kent]

Full size simulators cost a bomb! Do you think an industry that runs on wafer thin profits and subsidies as it is, can afford simulators when the same thing can be done on a real bus, whilst at the same time making the company money?

See this very recent press release:

Stagecoach invests in full-size bus simulators to drive training excellence and enhance safety | Stagecoach Group News for Media and Press

Stagecoach has invested in two state-of-the-art, full size bus simulators to improve driver training The immersive technology allows drivers to safely practice complex road, weather, and incident scenarios in a controlled environment The simulators are initially being used in training schools in...

media.stagecoachgroup.com

"24 Nov 2025

Stagecoach invests in full-size bus simulators to drive training excellence and enhance safety​

• Stagecoach has invested in two state-of-the-art, full size bus simulators to improve driver training
• The immersive technology allows drivers to safely practice complex road, weather, and incident scenarios in a controlled environment
• The simulators are initially being used in training schools in West Scotland and South Wales

Stagecoach, the UK’s largest bus and coach operator, has invested in two state-of-the-art driving simulators designed to enhance driver training and improve safety. The simulators are mobile and built into two Stagecoach buses.
The immersive technology allows drivers to experience different road and weather conditions in a controlled environment and practice their driving skills. This approach helps instructors tailor learning and measure improvement. The Company holds its drivers to high standards of driving excellence and the simulators provide additional tools to practice elements of training.
The buses are currently located at Taff’s Well depot in Wales and Kilmarnock depot in Scotland.
Sharon Vye-Parminter, Group Health, Safety and Environment Director at Stagecoach, said:
“This is an exciting step forward in using technology to enhance driver training and competency at Stagecoach. We’re looking forward to seeing the benefits they can deliver for our people and our customers. Stagecoach is committed to driving excellence, high standards, and investing in safety.”

 

[Tetchytyke]

Simulators for drivers on L plates aren’t anything new. I used a simulator with BSM when I was learning to drive a car in 1999. They’re great when you’re first learning to drive, you can get used to the size of the vehicle and the controls in your own time. But they’re of no use once you’ve passed your driving test.

You can’t simulate real world experience. The only way to get real world experience is by working in the real world. A different sector but I’ve done a lot of supervision and mentoring in my career. Yes, it took a new member of staff 30 minutes to do a debt advice session I could do in 10, but it also took me 30 minutes when I was new. The only way I got faster was by getting experience. The only way I got experience was by doing the do. We were all new once.

I seriously doubt that the delay of 40 minutes was purely down to the driver being new, though. It’s coming up Christmas and the 65 goes past the White Rose Centre. The ring road at Beeston is a car park at the best of times.