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Should CrossRail have been built as a interurban rail service?

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NorthKent1989

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Rather than a glorified tube line?

I’m not sure if this has been discussed before so my apologies in advance if I’m raising an old subject.

I feel that CrossRail was a missed opportunity in many ways, it should have been like Thameslink (linking Bedford to Brighton and Cambridge to Horsham) it could have linked Oxford to Southend for example.

Does anyone else feel the same? What would you do with CrossRail given the chance
 
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JonathanH

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There must be a thread about this somewhere but let's not forget that:
* Liverpool Street to Shenfield is one of the most intensive overground services run by the mainline railway.
* Heathrow was always likely to be one the destinations
* Central London is wider west-east than north-south
* Canary Wharf is a valid destination for the service
* There is a large urban population on the west side of London than until recently was catered for by 'short' trains

It seems to me that it would have been perverse to link Southend services into Crossrail rather than the Shenfield services. Once you have Shenfield on one side and Heathrow to serve, it makes sense to take over 'local' rather than 'regional' services on the west side.

There are some people who take the reverse view about Thameslink - that it should run to the stations between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction rather than long distance but I think you have to note the destinations actually on Thameslink in Central London relative to those between Paddington and Liverpool Street.
 

telstarbox

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All the terminals from Paddington across to Liverpool Street are linked via the Circle line so a journey like Oxford - London - Southend isn't that much of a hardship now.

Reading and Shenfield are both stations which connect into lots of other routes, so Crossrail will still help inter-regional journeys when it eventually opens.
 

NorthKent1989

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There must be a thread about this somewhere but let's not forget that:
* Liverpool Street to Shenfield is one of the most intensive overground services run by the mainline railway.
* Heathrow was always likely to be one the destinations
* Central London is wider west-east than north-south
* Canary Wharf is a valid destination for the service
* There is a large urban population on the west side of London than until recently was catered for by 'short' trains

It seems to me that it would have been perverse to link Southend services into Crossrail rather than the Shenfield services. Once you have Shenfield on one side and Heathrow to serve, it makes sense to take over 'local' rather than 'regional' services on the west side.

There are some people who take the reverse view about Thameslink - that it should run to the stations between New Cross Gate and Norwood Junction rather than long distance but I think you have to note the destinations actually on Thameslink in Central London relative to those between Paddington and Liverpool Street.

Yes I have heard that argument too with Thameslink, in fact I have often said myself that Thameslink should either be a suburban cross city metro route (Sutton to Luton, Sevenoaks to St. Albans and Orpington to Welwyn Garden City, Dartford to St. Albans, Beckenham to St. Albans, Epsom to Welwyn) or a main line that links urban areas and cities around London (Bedford to Brighton, Cambridge to Brighton, Peterborough to the South Coast, Cambridge to Ashford, Luton to Medway)

I do see how CrossRail in its form will still help commuters and traveller across the city though and is better than no CrossRail at all!
 

cle

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Because not all 'London' rail investment actually has to be for the Home Counties?!

Even though this does benefit the Home Counties, Londoners should come first.
 

Ianno87

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Because not all 'London' rail investment actually has to be for the Home Counties?!

Even though this does benefit the Home Counties, Londoners should come first.

Plus, wasn't a hefty portion of Crossrail's cost (c. 1bn ish?) funded by a levy on City businesses? Plus the contribution by Canary Wharf group.
 

Non Multi

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I've got the opposite view, the westernmost terminus should have been Slough instead of Reading. It's a Central Line express, just not in Tube gauge.

I recall the reaction that folk in Reading had, expecting to get a 'Crossrail' limited stop express through Central London, only to find it was the rebranded all stations Southall-Reading train which is anything but fast!
 

Ianno87

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I've got the opposite view, the westernmost terminus should have been Slough instead of Reading. It's a Central Line express, just not in Tube gauge.

I recall the reaction that folk in Reading had, expecting to get a 'Crossrail' limited stop express through Central London, only to find it was the rebranded all stations Southall-Reading train which is anything but fast!

Slough is the logical terminus demand-wise, but the original Maidenhead terminus has the space for sidings etc, so it went there.

Trouble is, to keep Twyford served involves then awkwardly overlapping services on the Relief lines - going to Reading avoids this.
 

Bletchleyite

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Trouble is, to keep Twyford served involves then awkwardly overlapping services on the Relief lines - going to Reading avoids this.

Are Twyford passengers going to use it all the way in, though, or will they go the 5 minutes the other way to Reading and go in on a fast (which would be doable on a Reading season)?
 

Ianno87

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JamesRowden

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Are Twyford passengers going to use it all the way in, though, or will they go the 5 minutes the other way to Reading and go in on a fast (which would be doable on a Reading season)?
The plan to end Crossrail at Maidenhead involved a planned off-peak pattern on the relief lines east of Reading of just a 2tph service to Paddington. The justification for this was given as:
  • Lack of electrification between Reading and Maidenhead (now solved by non crossrail project)
  • Lack of platform capacity at Reading (now solved by non crossrail project)
  • Cost of additional rolling stock (limited additional stock bought)
A 2tph Reading to Slough stopper would have run in addition during the peak.

I see the Reading Crossrail service as Reading-Slough and Maidenhead-London services merged for operational and passenger convenience. Just like it's worth having the even slower Reading-Waterloo service even though it's much faster and more frequent to travel from Reading to Waterloo via Paddington.
 

JonathanH

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Are Twyford passengers going to use it all the way in, though, or will they go the 5 minutes the other way to Reading and go in on a fast (which would be doable on a Reading season)?
Most tickets from Twyford towards London do not permit travelling via Reading. I doubt many people do it. There is a pretty substantial difference between the fares via and not via Reading (or indeed between a Twyford to London season and a Reading to London season).
 

Ianno87

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The plan to end Crossrail at Maidenhead involved a planned off-peak pattern on the relief lines east of Reading of just a 2tph service to Paddington. The justification for this was given as:
  • Lack of electrification between Reading and Maidenhead (now solved by non crossrail project)
  • Lack of platform capacity at Reading (now solved by non crossrail project)
  • Cost of additional rolling stock (limited additional stock bought)
A 2tph Reading to Slough stopper would have run in addition during the peak.

I see the Reading Crossrail service as Reading-Slough and Maidenhead-London services merged for operational and passenger convenience. Just like it's worth having the even slower Reading-Waterloo service even though it's much faster and more frequent to travel from Reading to Waterloo via Paddington.

Crossrail *could* have included wires to Reading, but that would have triggered re-signalling and remodelling and thus the costs of those (or a portion of them) would have been loaded onto Crossrail, with relatively few benefits for Crossrail to justify them in itself.

Maidenhead was only ever a terminus of accounting convenience until such a time Reading + Wires was done by somebody else.
 

Bald Rick

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Are Twyford passengers going to use it all the way in, though, or will they go the 5 minutes the other way to Reading and go in on a fast (which would be doable on a Reading season)?

The modelling shows a surprising number of passengers using Crossrail direct from Reading to central London stations (non Paddington). Guaranteed seat on the way in, no need to change. And on the way home, an Aventra under your bum is worth two IETs in the shed.
 

MarlowDonkey

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Off peak, most passengers will likely be going beyond Paddington, so sitting on Crossrail will be quicker overall.

Plausibly for Twyford and Maidenhead passengers going east beyond Paddington, it may make sense to catch one of the half hourly GWR sem fasts, hop off at Ealing and wait for the next Crossrail from Heathrow.
 

tbtc

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I'm instinctively drawn to the idea of some complicated mega-project, but what destinations would an Interurban service have had? And who would pay for it, given that you'd presumably want electrification of the western legs, since the eastern legs are already electrified? Would it be as far as Ipswich/ Oxford? Or as far as Norwich/ Bristol? Would it be replacing some of the exiting services from London to those places? In which case, what type of stock do you have that accommodates long distance passengers and also can handle large numbers of short distance passengers in central London (given the "churn")? Would Norwich/ Bristol passengers accept something like a 700? Or would you have passengers doing short distance journeys in the "core" dealing with end-doored coaches and a buffet car?

How do you keep a high frequency service in the "core" whilst services are dealing with bottle necks some distance from London?

Essentially, it sounds nice but I think that Heathrow/ Docklands etc will keep the Crossrail services busy enough without the need to put long distance passengers on there too. I can't see any huge "cross London" demand (other than to Heathrow/ Docklands/ Stratford) that requires a longer distance service, beyond the general idea that it'd be nice if there were "something" quirky and long distance.

I see the Reading Crossrail service as Reading-Slough and Maidenhead-London services merged for operational and passenger convenience. Just like it's worth having the even slower Reading-Waterloo service even though it's much faster and more frequent to travel from Reading to Waterloo via Paddington.

^^ that's the way I see it - it's not primarily intended for Reading - London passengers but it makes sense to extend it through to Reading as that's a natural terminus and it can provide Reading (a busy/ important place in its own right, not simply a London commuter town) with a decent level of service/capacity from Thames Valley stations - just like the way that the Waterloo service is really a London - Staines service and a Staines - Reading service joined on together.

Obviously some passengers will prefer a direct train (over a fast Paddington service and trip on the Underground), some passengers will prefer to board an empty service at Reading (instead of cramming onto a service already busy with West Country/Welsh passengers) - horses for courses - it's a busy corridor so there's space for different types of service (and, I have used the Waterloo stopper before, partly because I was going to somewhere on the South Bank and partly because it avoided faffing about changing in central London -

Crossrail *could* have included wires to Reading, but that would have triggered re-signalling and remodelling and thus the costs of those (or a portion of them) would have been loaded onto Crossrail, with relatively few benefits for Crossrail to justify them in itself.

Maidenhead was only ever a terminus of accounting convenience until such a time Reading + Wires was done by somebody else.

Agreed - got to remember that when Crossrail was being planned, the GWML wasn't wired, so there's a danger of scope creep (whereby your project ends up paying for extra things that you'll partly benefit from but other projects will be able to free ride on)
 

Non Multi

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The modelling shows a surprising number of passengers using Crossrail direct from Reading to central London stations (non Paddington). Guaranteed seat on the way in, no need to change. And on the way home, an Aventra under your bum is worth two IETs in the shed.
That would appeal more to off peak daytrippers with time on their hands rather than hardened commuters who put up with 25 mins standing (and then whinging on social media about it) than spending 45-50 sitting.
 

Bald Rick

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That would appeal more to off peak daytrippers with time on their hands rather than hardened commuters who put up with 25 mins standing (and then whinging on social media about it) than spending 45-50 sitting.

In another part of Commuterworld, you’d be surprised how many hardened commuters elect to use the all stations stopper (35 mins) that starts at St Albans with guaranteed seats, compared to the fasts (20 mins) with guaranteed standing, even though they serve (mostly) the same central London stations.
 

AM9

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In another part of Commuterworld, you’d be surprised how many hardened commuters elect to use the all stations stopper (35 mins) that starts at St Albans with guaranteed seats, compared to the fasts (20 mins) with guaranteed standing, even though they serve (mostly) the same central London stations.
Yes, wife does that. Sits on empty train in platform 1 and gets off in City Thameslink. Service every 10 minutes with no standing on platform or on train.
Given that most passengers commuting from Reading are going further than Paddington into central London , (or even through it to Docklands), there's even less sense in faffing around packing onto an end-door train to stand in a vestibule and then transferring onto the Tube for another crush. It's even more stupid to get onto Crossrail at Paddington where it will also be full. I would think that the end-to-end time difference would be less than 5 minutes between the two, - and might go either way.
 

Ianno87

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Yes, wife does that. Sits on empty train in platform 1 and gets off in City Thameslink. Service every 10 minutes with no standing on platform or on train.
Given that most passengers commuting from Reading are going further than Paddington into central London , (or even through it to Docklands), there's even less sense in faffing around packing onto an end-door train to stand in a vestibule and then transferring onto the Tube for another crush. It's even more stupid to get onto Crossrail at Paddington where it will also be full. I would think that the end-to-end time difference would be less than 5 minutes between the two, - and might go either way.

At Reading, it might come down to seeing the lights of an IET approaching and jumping on that. If not, spot the warm purple train in the platforms, knowing that it'll be going in a few minutes.
 
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The "interurban Crossrail" idea was the subject of a lot of debate back in the 2000s, mainly around the rival "Superlink" scheme (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superlink_(railway_network)) that was promoted by, I believe, Michael Schabas, John Prideaux and others. (Superlink's own website can still be accessed here through the Wayback Machine.) The Superlink proposal had services from Southend Victoria and Pitsea to Reading (half via Heathrow and Ascot, using a Heathrow southern link), Ipswich to Northampton and Cambridge/Stansted to Basingstoke/Guildford (again via Heathrow and the southern link). I won't use the "c" word, but, notwithstanding the experience of the promoters, the potential operational headaches are obvious - probably more so today than fifteen years ago. Superlink attracted quite a lot of attention in its time, including a write-up in Roger Ford's "Informed Sources."

Slightly further back, the shadow SRA's London East-West Study in 2001 looked at "Regional Express" options as well as "Regional Metro." (For the east-west Crossrail - there were also north-south and east-south options - the Regional Express service was to be Colchester/Southend Victoria to Reading/High Wycombe, whereas the corresponding Regional Metro was Shenfield/Tilbury to Slough/Amersham, quite similar to the late 1980s/early 1990s BR Crossrail proposal.) The study's conclusions in respect of the two service options were as follows:
The Regional Metros:
• are more robust from an operational point of view as they can be run as contained services;
• are also more desirable from the point of view of long term sustainability, consistency with land use planning policy and social inclusion objectives;
• are consistent with the Mayor’s Draft Transport Strategy.

The Regional Expresses:
• are best at reducing car usage;
• would extend the catchment area of Central London and encourage longer distance commuting;
• yield higher fare box revenues because of longer journeys involved.

The final recommendation was:
In the light of the assessment it is our recommendation that the Paddington to Liverpool Street Regional Metro should progress to the project definition stage and should form the backbone of the 20 year programme.

I don't really know anything about where the outer termini would have been for the pre-1980s Crossrail schemes (e.g. 1968 London Transportation Study and 1974 London Rail Study).
 

CBlue

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Would there be demand and space for a Crossrail Reading semi-fast? Say, non-stop Slough to Paddington?
Isn't that already catered for by the existing GWR services?


I don't get the OP's comment about Crossrail being a "glorified tube line" - because that's more or less what it is.
 

JonathanH

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Would there be demand and space for a Crossrail Reading semi-fast? Say, non-stop Slough to Paddington?
It isn't obvious to me what the point of that would be. It would still be quicker to take a main line train to Paddington and change.

With 345s limited to 90mph, it would have to use the relief line. As evidenced by this train https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W30777/2020-12-16/detailed, you already can't run a non-stop service from Slough to Paddington on the relief line without a substantial time penalty. It has 8 minutes of pathing time east of Airport Junction to fit in with the stopping services and there will be more stopping services once the through service is running.

Slough to Paddington is 25 minutes on that train. It is 32 minutes (WTT schedule) on the TfL Rail service immediately in front. Therefore, the time from Reading to the Crossrail tunnels might go from 55 minutes to 48 minutes. That isn't really a great saving in time.
 

HST43257

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Would there be demand and space for a Crossrail Reading semi-fast? Say, non-stop Slough to Paddington?
I’d just make Crossrail take over the existing GWR semi fast service to Didcot calling at Ealing B’way, Hayes & Harlington, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead then all stations to Didcot via Reading. 2tph off peak and 4tph peak. Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford keep non stop London services through intercity trains.
 

JamesRowden

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Would there be demand and space for a Crossrail Reading semi-fast? Say, non-stop Slough to Paddington?
The obvious option to provide faster Crossrail services for Twyford, Maidenhead and Slough is to make the Didcot to Paddington GWR service non-stop on the main lines between Reading and Paddington, and transfer the semi-fast relief line paths east of Reading to Crossrail.
 

CBlue

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I’d just make Crossrail take over the existing GWR semi fast service to Didcot calling at Ealing B’way, Hayes & Harlington, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead then all stations to Didcot via Reading. 2tph off peak and 4tph peak. Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford keep non stop London services through intercity trains.
The 345's aren't exactly suited to semi-fast services, let's be realistic here. Unless your thinking is that Crossrail start operating the 387s which should at least keep journey times short?
 

JonathanH

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I’d just make Crossrail take over the existing GWR semi fast service to Didcot calling at Ealing B’way, Hayes & Harlington, West Drayton, Slough, Maidenhead then all stations to Didcot via Reading. 2tph off peak and 4tph peak. Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford keep non stop London services through intercity trains.
That service doesn't run in the peaks anyway when the TfL Rail service takes over the path (with more stops).
 

HST43257

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The 345's aren't exactly suited to semi-fast services
In what way exactly? Skipping a few stops is no real issue. I doubt the Relief lines have a high speed that the 387s can take advantage of. If this is about the issue of seating, in the peaks when there’s a lot of commuters, the longer distance travellers from places like Twyford and Tilehurst can take the seats and those from Hayes and Ealing can stand. Is that such a big deal?
 
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