Should Crossrail be mothballed?

[matt_world2004]

Its not going to be mothballed its just political posturing and forcing TfL to get its house in order and do what the govt wants.

The fact that Wildes been there 2 years now and still won't give any certainty to when its open though will be exercising the mandarins at DofT and given the amount of cash there burning through rightly so.

This is TfL saying they will mothball it as they cannot afford the 80 million they are saying they will have to relinquish control of it if they cannot find 80 million..

The government may call their bluff and return it's operation to the dft and it becomes another franchise.

 

[Taunton]

You have to understand that the country is currently desperately short of money, which is being used to support all sorts of employment where there is no money coming in. There have to be decisions on where the limited amount of money goes. For the likes of TfL's employees, where hardly anyone (if any at all) have been let go and are still on full pay at government expense, it really has been good for them with hardly any fares income, in contrast to all those with airlines, restaurants, shops, entertaining, and many other areas, who have lost jobs, and increasingly have lost everything.

In this condition, a wayward project which was long stated to be finished in 2018, but has got to 2 years later and seemingly has no sensible clue on what needs to be done, or how much it will cost to get it finished or when, and seems to employ every excuse, is not a high priority. It's a considerable waste to board it up and give it up until better times, but the blame for this can be laid fair and square at the doorsteps of those extremely highly paid executives who just have not told the truth about where things were up to. Instead we have had a constant drip-drip-drip of "more money needed" (not even please) with absolutely no indication of what it will be spent on, or why the existing sums proved to be not enough and where all the existing supplements since 2018 have been spent.

So it has come to "The Emperor has no Clothes" time for Crossrail. They have given enough false statements of completion time and cost, and nothing is ever announced, even at TfL board meetings, of anything beyond single headline figures of £xxx million and xxx months delay, which seem to be finger-in-the-air guesses, just like all the previous ones. It does come over to the general public, if you speak to them, that it's now a laughing stock and a national embarrassment. Why should they be head of the queue for very limited public funds now? It's not going to be finished in 2020, or in 2021, and nobody believes 2022 any more. The money is needed elsewhere. How did this happen? Ask long time Crossrail bosses Terry Morgan and Mark Wild how they presided over all this.

 

[Ianno87]

Presumably with Crossrail "mothballing" is not zero cost - the tunnels will needs to kept in some sort of semi-operational readiness condition regardless. So if it needs more money, it may as well be moving it towards (eventual) operation, using the skills already on it. Demobilising and restarting will only cost more.

Frankly, £80m is loose change relative to the cost of Covid.

Unlike restaurants, airlines, etc - TfL are still running a near full strength operational transport network.

 

[Taunton]

Unlike restaurants, airlines, etc - TfL are still running a near full strength operational transport network.

Have you been on it? The trains are empty.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

You have to understand that the country is currently desperately short of money, which is being used to support all sorts of employment where there is no money coming in. There have to be decisions on where the limited amount of money goes. For the likes of TfL's employees, where hardly anyone (if any at all) have been let go and are still on full pay at government expense, it really has been good for them with hardly any fares income, in contrast to all those with airlines, restaurants, shops, entertaining, and many other areas, who have lost jobs, and increasingly have lost everything.

In this condition, a wayward project which was long stated to be finished in 2018, but has got to 2 years later and seemingly has no sensible clue on what needs to be done, or how much it will cost to get it finished or when, and seems to employ every excuse, is not a high priority. It's a considerable waste to board it up and give it up until better times, but the blame for this can be laid fair and square at the doorsteps of those extremely highly paid executives who just have not told the truth about where things were up to. Instead we have had a constant drip-drip-drip of "more money needed" (not even please) with absolutely no indication of what it will be spent on, or why the existing sums proved to be not enough and where all the existing supplements since 2018 have been spent.

So it has come to "The Emperor has no Clothes" time for Crossrail. They have given enough false statements of completion time and cost, and nothing is ever announced, even at TfL board meetings, of anything beyond single headline figures of £xxx million and xxx months delay, which seem to be finger-in-the-air guesses, just like all the previous ones. It does come over to the general public, if you speak to them, that it's now a laughing stock and a national embarrassment. Why should they be head of the queue for very limited public funds now? It's not going to be finished in 2020, or in 2021, and nobody believes 2022 any more. The money is needed elsewhere. How did this happen? Ask long time Crossrail bosses Terry Morgan and Mark Wild how they presided over all this.

"Nobody believes 2022 anymore"- Seriously? Are we looking at 2023?

 

[bramling]

Have you been on it? The trains are empty.

This is a myth I'm afraid. Usage is certainly down on normal, at times very much so, however even with a normal weekday service the trains are far from empty - and this applies even during the current "lockdown".

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So it has come to "The Emperor has no Clothes" time for Crossrail. They have given enough false statements of completion time and cost, and nothing is ever announced, even at TfL board meetings, of anything beyond single headline figures of £xxx million and xxx months delay, which seem to be finger-in-the-air guesses, just like all the previous ones. It does come over to the general public, if you speak to them, that it's now a laughing stock and a national embarrassment. Why should they be head of the queue for very limited public funds now? It's not going to be finished in 2020, or in 2021, and nobody believes 2022 any more. The money is needed elsewhere. How did this happen? Ask long time Crossrail bosses Terry Morgan and Mark Wild how they presided over all this.

Taunton Wolstenholme should be in in lieu of Wilde i would suggest although im fast losing faith in Wilde. Wolstenholme and Morgan took millions in bonus as well loss of office payments and there is no redress for there failure or clawback on fraudulently earned bonuses. OK oversight by Dept of Transport and TfL was inept aided and abetted by the equally useless independent oversight organisation Jacobs paid £33m to basically repeat what Crossrail Ltd told them.

 

[matt_world2004]

This is a myth I'm afraid. Usage is certainly down on normal, at times very much so, however even with a normal weekday service the trains are far from empty - and this applies even during the current "lockdown".

During this lockdown demand fell to 28% of typical usage . Just before this lockdown it was 45% there have been greater falls in zone 1 where the most expensive fares are charged and where most tourist and office traffic falls. At the peak of the first lockdown demand was 9% of typical daily usage.

Bus usage has also fallen less than tube usage.

Bus i

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Have you been on it? The trains are empty.

Not as low as Lockdown 1 mind you see DofT stats.

That said the issue longer term is whether London comes back to the same levels of workers and tourists as last year in the context of mothballing Crossrail - very unlikely the govt likes big vanity projects and it was largely built under our PMs tenure as Mayor as well as being named after someone very important so probably suits them its running late so they can be sure of be able to have a big celebratory opening.

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure TfL have selected the figures that suit them, as ever. For usage percentages school traffic (much very short distance) has probably held up better than most, which aids the overall averages, though of course this traffic provides little revenue.

With usage down at way under 50% of prior levels, there is no NEED for Crossrail to alleviate congestion, it is a pleasant but expensive luxury to improve certain east-west journeys. Including mine, in case you think I am remote from all this. Nobody believes any longer that yet another £80m is the end of it.

Taunton Wolstenholme should be in in lieu of Wilde i would suggest although im fast losing faith in Wilde. Wolstenholme and Morgan took millions in bonus as well loss of office payments and there is no redress for there failure or clawback on fraudulently earned bonuses. OK oversight by Dept of Transport and TfL was inept aided and abetted by the equally useless independent oversight organisation Jacobs paid £33m to basically repeat what Crossrail Ltd told them.

I didn't really want to get into the more general Crossrail failure reasons, but I suspect that certain aspects of executive reporting and thus keeping their jobs should come to the attention of the Fraud Squad, were it not that they are part of the Met, thus ultimately under The Mayor, who might not wish certain truths to emerge.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm sure TfL have selected the figures that suit them, as ever. For usage percentages school traffic (much very short distance) has probably held up better than most, which aids the overall averages, though of course this traffic provides little revenue.

With usage down at way under 50% of prior levels, there is no NEED for Crossrail to alleviate congestion, it is a pleasant but expensive luxury to improve certain east-west journeys. Including mine, in case you think I am remote from all this. Nobody believes any longer that yet another £80m is the end of it.

One day (when Covid is a distant memory), we will need Crossrail. Covid has, ironically, just bought some time to finish it without continuing unacceptable levels of crowding and pent up demand.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Not as low as Lockdown 1 mind you see DofT stats.

That said the issue longer term is whether London comes back to the same levels of workers and tourists as last year in the context of mothballing Crossrail - very unlikely the govt likes big vanity projects and it was largely built under our PMs tenure as Mayor as well as being named after someone very important so probably suits them its running late so they can be sure of be able to have a big celebratory opening.

The way things are going or not going, Boris Johnson will be finished before Crossrail!

 

[randyrippley]

I presume its the advanced signal / train control system that's causing the problem?

How realistic would it be to strip it all out and rebuild to a workable reliable lower spec system?

 

[JonathanH]

I presume its the advanced signal / train control system that's causing the problem?

How realistic would it be to strip it all out and rebuild to a workable reliable lower spec system?

No, the problem is more that construction isn't finished.

By all accounts, postings in the class 345 progress thread state that tunnel testing is going well - the issue is more to do with transitions and the way in which the systems for operation of 9-car trains on the existing network interact with the systems needed for tunnel operation.

 

[matt_world2004]

I presume its the advanced signal / train control system that's causing the problem?

How realistic would it be to strip it all out and rebuild to a workable reliable lower spec system?

Realistically, it would be difficult. Without the auto turnback feature at old oak common, you would be limited to 12 tph in the core. This would in effect give 6 tph to each branch the Shenfield services even post lockdown would not cope with 6tph.

 

[Andrew S]

Have you been on it? The trains are empty.

I went on a district line train then a DLR around 4.30pm today, both seemed at pre-covid loading tbh.

 

[Snow1964]

Seems Farringdon station is now complete
Press release from BAM

Construction works complete at Farringdon Elizabeth line station

(Press release Crossrail:) London, 7 December 2020 - The Farringdon Elizabeth line station has reached an important milestone with the completion of construction activity, Crossrail has confirmed.

www.bam.com