Should Class 222's be moved from Lumo West Coast to East Coast?

[GLC]

The Hitachi 803 units that Lumo East Coast run are of a significantly higher quality than the current West Coast 222 are/will be, even post refurb. The 803s have better passenger accommodation and seating, ability to use the OHLE, and of course better crash safety given they are 20 years newer ! Whereas the Voyagers will always have their toilet smell, grumbling diesel engines, and a comprised body shell profile for redundant tilt work.

Given that the West Coast Main Line is considered the premier mainline within the UK, and routinely received newer rolling stock and line upgrades ahead of it's East Coast sibling, I think there is a strong case for the 803s to be transferred to Lumo's West Coast operation, and let the 222s run out their days on the less significant ECML. A premier line deserve premier stock, and a clapped out Voyager does not cut it compared to a freshly built IET derivative

 

[Darandio]

No

 

[Peterthegreat]

No

Agreed.

 

[MCR247]

Is the WCML considered the UKs premier mainline? I think both the ECML and WCML get upgrades and new stock when required. After all the 390s are getting on a bit compared to the Azumas and soon to be 897s!

Lumo is a private open access operator so whether or not there is a strong case (there isn’t), they’d have to be the ones to get the ball rolling on this. They’d then have to seek approval from ORR/NR about paths, but I don’t think there’s any way for the DfT/NR/ORR to ‘instruct’ First to make this change.

Financially, I imagine the 803s are more expensive to lease than the 222s. It usually makes sense to have the most expensive stock on the services which generate the most revenue, rather than on the newer services that are still trying to find their feet.

Practically, I’m not sure a 222 would be able to keep to the timings of an 803 from London to Edinburgh.

In conclusion, it’s another no from e

 

[NSE]

No. For the cost of arranging it/getting the approval, then doing the driver training plus the cost of somehow moving them to the opposite operations. Nah.

 

[Sorcerer]

Is the WCML considered the UKs premier mainline? I think both the ECML and WCML get upgrades and new stock when required. After all the 390s are getting on a bit compared to the Azumas and soon to be 897s!

Arguably it is given that it connects London, Birmingham and Manchester which are some of the most major cities in the UK, the only comparable ECML destination being Leeds and quite possibly Edinburgh (though the WCML also serves here as well).

In relation to the original question, not really. The 222s are merely a stop-gap and can bypass the power supply restrictions north of Crewe while the 803s, being electric only, won't be able to do this, rendering the point of being able to use the overhead lines moot.

 

[gordonthemoron]

222s are required because:

a) the route is not fully electrified
b) the OHLE is apparently overloaded in the Crewe area

 

[MCR247]

Arguably it is given that it connects London, Birmingham and Manchester which are some of the most major cities in the UK, the only comparable ECML destination being Leeds and quite possibly Edinburgh (though the WCML also serves here as well).

My question wasn’t whether it is worthy of being the UKs premier mainline, but whether it is already considered such, which was stated as a given in the OP.

 

[brad465]

London-Edinburgh is a massive market, with flows between London and Newcastle and Newcastle and Edinbrugh also big markets. Lumo need the full 400 seat units to take advantage of this. The Stirling route does not serve any comparable destinations directly, with no station on this route coming close to the patronage of Newcastle and Edinburgh, so the ~300 seat 222s make more sense here than on the ECML until a future 222 replacement arrives. If anything, Lumo would benefit from even more 803s or equivalent on the ECML to make 10-car trains, as they will not struggle to fill them and it utilises their paths better (though getting DfT approval for this is another matter).

 

[cle]

There is no such thing as the premier mainline. Birmingham and Manchester have the highest flows with London, but Leeds and Edinburgh come above Liverpool and anywhere else.

Newcastle and York are above Preston and all the rest of the Lancs places - and far more salubrious in rail terms, frankly.

Plus the WCML (and its largest destinations) is also a set of spurs and stubs, the mainline writ large is to Glasgow.

 

[Kite159]

222s are required because:

a) the route is not fully electrified
b) the OHLE is apparently overloaded in the Crewe area

Which part between London & Stirling isn't electricified?

 

[Magrar]

Given that the West Coast Main Line is considered the premier mainline within the UK, and routinely received newer rolling stock and line upgrades ahead of it's East Coast sibling

This line of reasoning of course assumes Lumo is part of the railway establishment, which is an odd take.

And in other news, the main line that connects the two capitals of the "Union" referred to in "United Kingdom", and has the most famous trains, will always be the UK's premier main line.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Given that the West Coast Main Line is considered the premier mainline within the UK

By whom?

 

[The Planner]

222s are required because:

a) the route is not fully electrified
b) the OHLE is apparently overloaded in the Crewe area

Not apparently, it is.

 

[sprinterguy]

Given that the West Coast Main Line is considered the premier mainline within the UK, and routinely received newer rolling stock and line upgrades ahead of it's East Coast sibling

Ermm, it hasn't: The WCML has received one desperately needed route upgrade this century because it had to muddle through into privatisation with increasingly antiquated stock (except for the the move to push-pull operation and replacement of the last 'Roarers' at the end of the 80s) due to the two proposed BR era upgrades since electrification - APT and then Intercity 250 - both being shelved. It now seems plausible that delays to HS2 will apply similar pressures to a mostly ageing frontline fleet, and it feels like Crewe station (which did at least receive some attention in the mid-eighties) may crumble into dust before it ever gets to see another upgrade.

Meanwhile the ECML - having been the only route kitted out with high performance Deltics in lieu of electrification in the sixties - was re-equipped with HSTs circa 1979/80, benefitted from the Selby diversion in 1983 and was fully electrified with brand new high performance electric trains by 1991, with widespread track rationalisation at key locations to match. It has since seen (almost) total fleet renewal again with the latest generation of Intercity train design - granted, the WCML has seen a similar replacement of its relatively modern residual diesel fleet.

Certainly throughout the nineties into privatisation, the ECML seemed to be commonly regarded as the "flagship" Intercity route in the railway press and marketing, and while the WCML is currently enjoying its time in the sun, application of that moniker is by its nature cyclical, depending on which route has most recently received a generational upgrade.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2026 ==

Whereas the Voyagers will always have their toilet smell,

It's never been routinely noted as an issue with the Meridians which Lumo are operating. And I haven't noticed it on Voyagers in years.

 

[krus_aragon]

Is the WCML considered the UKs premier mainline?

That'll be the long, long hand of the London & North Western Railway's advertising from over a century ago!

 

[Topological]

Ermm, it hasn't: The WCML has received one desperately needed route upgrade this century because it had to muddle through into privatisation with increasingly antiquated stock (except for the Crewe remodelling, and then the move to push-pull operation and replacement of the last 'Roarers' at the end of the 80s) due to the two proposed BR era upgrades since electrification - APT and then Intercity 250 - both being shelved. It now seems plausible that delays to HS2 will apply similar pressures to a mostly ageing frontline fleet, and it feels like Crewe station may crumble into dust before it ever gets to see another upgrade.

Meanwhile the ECML - having been the only route kitted out with high performance Deltics in lieu of electrification in the sixties - was re-equipped with HSTs circa 1979/80, benefitted from the Selby diversion in 1983 and was fully electrified with brand new high performance electric trains by 1991. It has since seen (almost) total fleet renewal again with the latest generation of Intercity train design - granted, the WCML has seen a similar replacement of its relatively modern residual diesel fleet.

Certainly throughout the nineties into privatisation, the ECML seemed to be commonly regarded as the "flagship" Intercity route in the railway press and marketing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2026 ==


It's never been routinely noted as an issue with the Meridians which Lumo are operating. And I haven't noticed it on Voyagers in years.

The superiority of the ECML was what I was going to write prior @sprinterguy explaining it.

When I moved to Manchester in 2000, the WCML was very much old Mk3s, with many trains on Mk2 stock. There were some Class 90s which seemed modern, but the majority of trains were hauled by the 86/87. The ECML was running with 91s and Mk4s. It is a different world now because the Pendolinos and the WCML Modernisation Strategy changed so much. However, for a very long time the WCML was as forgotten as the former industrial heartlands it served.

It is not quite a major project, but Darlington getting new platforms has been a big step for the ECML. Probably the equivalent on the WCML was Nuneaton getting new platforms to keep Brimingham-Leicester from having to cross the formation.

Basically Lumo should get new trains to replace the 222s. But that is a commercial decision for Lumo and will depend on how the service performs. Meanwhile, the upgrade of the power supply on the WCML must be done.

 

[sprinterguy]

When I moved to Manchester in 2000, the WCML was very much old Mk3s, with many trains on Mk2 stock. There were some Class 90s which seemed modern, but the majority of trains were hauled by the 86/87. The ECML was running with 91s and Mk4s. It is a different world now because the Pendolinos and the WCML Modernisation Strategy changed so much. However, for a very long time the WCML was as forgotten as the former industrial heartlands it served.

Indeed, the impression I gained of the infrastructure and fleet situation on the West Coast in the early Virgin Trains days can be described as "neglected" and "barely organised chaos" respectively, and that's despite me having a great fondness for the old locos and stock from a personal perspective. Occasional glimpses of the parlous state of the WCML, despite the trains being dressed up in a flashy new red and black livery, always made me grateful that I lived near the recently modernised East Coast route at the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jul 2026 ==

Basically Lumo should get new trains to replace the 222s. But that is a commercial decision for Lumo and will depend on how the service performs. Meanwhile, the upgrade of the power supply on the WCML must be done.

Agreed. The 222s are absolutely fine for a rapid start up to establish the viability of the service.

 

[Topological]

Someone will pipe up at some point and say that the 86s with their Mk2s, then the 90s and their Mk3s, turned up on London - Norwich...

The biggest change for the WCML was probably Rugby. Anyone who remembers the old layout at Rugby would laugh when saying that was the premier main line. There has not been an equivalent project on the ECML, but then I am not sure there needs to be. Doncaster is the equivalent splitting point (for Leeds services) but then Leeds does not warrant 3tph at the moment like Birmingham has and there are not 6/7tph continuing on the mainline from Doncaster either. (Rugby having 3tph to Birmingham plus 1/2tph Liverpool, 3tph Manchester, 1tph Chester and 1tph Glasgow continuing on the mainline)

 

[swt_passenger]

Given that the West Coast Main Line is considered the premier mainline within the UK, and routinely received newer rolling stock and line upgrades ahead of it's East Coast sibling, I think there is a strong case for the 803s to be transferred to Lumo's West Coast operation, and let the 222s run out their days on the less significant ECML. A premier line deserve premier stock, and a clapped out Voyager does not cut it compared to a freshly built IET derivative

Seriously?

 

[Sorcerer]

I've created a new thread for discussion about premier main lines so we can keep this one about the Lumo fleet allocation.

Does the UK have a "premier" main line?

In light of a discussion emerging in a previous thread, I thought it would be worth it's own discussion. Do you think the British railway network has a "premier" main line, as in one that's the most prestigious or the flagship trunk route in the UK? I think just because of the amount of trunk...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Noddy]

The superiority of the ECML was what I was going to write prior @sprinterguy explaining it.

When I moved to Manchester in 2000, the WCML was very much old Mk3s, with many trains on Mk2 stock. There were some Class 90s which seemed modern, but the majority of trains were hauled by the 86/87. The ECML was running with 91s and Mk4s. It is a different world now because the Pendolinos and the WCML Modernisation Strategy changed so much. However, for a very long time the WCML was as forgotten as the former industrial heartlands it served.

Not only this but the ECML was on the cusp of 140mph operation (with the Selby by-pass designed for even higher speed running), while the WCML topped out at 110mph but most of it was significantly slower.

I’m not sure how the 330 mile Capital to Capital train in approximately four hours isn’t a premier service.

 

[3RDGEN]

Basically Lumo should get new trains to replace the 222s. But that is a commercial decision for Lumo and will depend on how the service performs. Meanwhile, the upgrade of the power supply on the WCML must be done.

Lumo/First Group have options with Hitachi to buy Battery/Electric 80x units should their London - Stirling access rights be extended beyond 2030. The battery option removes the power supply issues for Lumo as they will just run on them in the affected area(s).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not only this but the ECML was on the cusp of 140mph operation (with the Selby by-pass designed for even higher speed running), while the WCML topped out at 110mph but most of it was significantly slower.
I’m not sure how the 330 mile Capital to Capital train in approximately four hours isn’t a premier service.

393 miles King's Cross-Edinburgh (400 miles Euston-Edinburgh via Carstairs).
The WCML could match ECML times to Edinburgh if it was told to do so - but Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow paths are prioritised.
The volume of freight paths on the WCML prevents more passenger paths, and means trains are flighted north of Crewe/Preston.

When HS2 opens to Handsacre, the WCML Edinburgh times could be shorter than the ECML.
HS2b to Golborne was due to take the main London-Scotland service (Glasgow and Edinburgh combined, split at Carlisle), but not happening now.

 

[Zomboid]

393 miles King's Cross-Edinburgh (400 miles Euston-Edinburgh via Carstairs).
The WCML could match ECML times to Edinburgh if it was told to do so - but Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow paths are prioritised.
The volume of freight paths on the WCML prevents more passenger paths, and means trains are flighted north of Crewe/Preston.

When HS2 opens to Handsacre, the WCML Edinburgh times could be shorter than the ECML.
HS2b to Golborne was due to take the main London-Scotland service (Glasgow and Edinburgh combined, split at Carlisle), but not happening now.

Though in the absence of proper HS2, it's likely to be better to spread the cross-border traffic between the two routes as it is today rather than load everything onto the two tracks between Carstairs and Preston.

 

[jamiestuart314]

The Hitachi 803 units that Lumo East Coast run are of a significantly higher quality than the current West Coast 222 are/will be, even post refurb. The 803s have better passenger accommodation and seating, ability to use the OHLE, and of course better crash safety given they are 20 years newer ! Whereas the Voyagers will always have their toilet smell, grumbling diesel engines, and a comprised body shell profile for redundant tilt work.

Given that the West Coast Main Line is considered the premier mainline within the UK, and routinely received newer rolling stock and line upgrades ahead of it's East Coast sibling, I think there is a strong case for the 803s to be transferred to Lumo's West Coast operation, and let the 222s run out their days on the less significant ECML. A premier line deserve premier stock, and a clapped out Voyager does not cut it compared to a freshly built IET derivative

bit of a silly idea, they can't run purely electric trains on WCML because of the power supply issues, and after doing a far amount of travelling on the lumo meridians I will say they are actually quite pleasant to travel upon, no idea where you got the toilet smell issue from, and even sitting above the engine they arent really that loud, especially compared to the voyagers, even then if its such a major issue sitting at the opposite end of the carriage means you can barely hear it. i would very much disagree on them being "clapped out"