Should Caledonian Sleeper abandon the Fort William route?

[Gathursty]

Whenever I look at the Caledonian Sleeper thread, it is more often than not the Fort William branch that cause so much consternation. If the Caledonian Sleeper service only worked Aberdeen/Inverness with possibly another Scottish destination (Stranraer/Oban/Lairg?), would this be any better?

If Caledonian Sleeper abandoned the West Highland Line, how could Scotrail benefit?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they were going to abandon any route I'd suggest Aberdeen - I understand it now has the quietest loadings and FW is now much busier.

I'd prefer it didn't abandon any of it, though.

 

[Gathursty]

If they were going to abandon any route I'd suggest Aberdeen - I understand it now has the quietest loadings and FW is now much busier.

I'd prefer it didn't abandon any of it, though.

An interesting reply. I just assumed Aberdeen would be perenially busy with the oil industry workers. The recent 11-hour delay with the Fort William caused almost full refunds to the passengers. That's my concern. FW can't be as profitable if on a regular basis, delay repay has to be handed out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

An interesting reply. I just assumed Aberdeen would be perenially busy with the oil industry workers. The recent 11-hour delay with the Fort William caused almost full refunds to the passengers. That's my concern. FW can't be as profitable if on a regular basis, delay repay has to be handed out.

None of it is profitable, not even nearly!

 

[Clansman]

The Aberdeen sleeper has been dying since First done away with bargain berths, which was compiled with low usage rendering it all but decimated after it was split from ScotRail and Serco took over.

Exaggeration it may be but compared to what it was like 10 year ago, it's a sad state of affairs that the Aberdeen one has become.

Fort William in contrast has been booming, and if it wasn't for platform length constraints on the WHL and at Euston, it could easily fill the same portion sizes as the Inverness.

 

[sprinterguy]

As noted above the Fort William portion has gone from strength to strength since privatisation, and sees more demand now than I suspect it ever has. It must surely be one of Caledonian Sleeper's most successful routes.

Plus the uproar was huge in the mid nineties when it was strongly rumoured that the Fort William sleeper would be withdrawn by BR in the run up to privatisation: I suspect the furore would be even greater today, especially with a franchise overseen by a devolved Scottish parliament.

 

[Journeyman]

An interesting reply. I just assumed Aberdeen would be perenially busy with the oil industry workers. The recent 11-hour delay with the Fort William caused almost full refunds to the passengers. That's my concern. FW can't be as profitable if on a regular basis, delay repay has to be handed out.

Errr…which oil industry workers would those be? The decline in the oil industry has been catastrophic over the last few years.

 

[Journeyman]

As noted above the Fort William portion has gone from strength to strength since privatisation, and sees more demand now than I suspect it ever has. It must surely be one of Caledonian Sleeper's most successful routes.

Plus the uproar was huge in the mid nineties when it was strongly rumoured that the Fort William sleeper would be withdrawn by BR in the run up to privatisation: I suspect the furore would be even greater today, especially with a franchise overseen by a devolved Scottish parliament.

Yes - Fort William is hugely popular for outdoor activities, and even in the winter, the trains are getting busier. Personally, I'd prefer it if the sleeper went to Oban. Apart from anything else, it's a much nicer town. FW is a good base for further exploration, but the town itself is a dump. Oban also has the ferry connections as well, but currently lacks the infrastructure to support sleeper stabling and servicing during the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes - Fort William is hugely popular for outdoor activities, and even in the winter, the trains are getting busier. Personally, I'd prefer it if the sleeper went to Oban. Apart from anything else, it's a much nicer town. FW is a good base for further exploration, but the town itself is a dump. Oban also has the ferry connections as well, but currently lacks the infrastructure to support sleeper stabling and servicing during the day.

Given how the WHL Sleeper leaves much earlier and arrives much later, provided a guaranteed and well-timed DMU connection was provided for the other one at Crianlarich I'm not sure it overly matters which one of the two they choose.

I don't share your view that FW is that bad, though I've not been to Oban so it's quite possibly nicer. If you want to see a really rubbish town with a big touristy mountain next to it, try Llanberis, it really is horrid.

 

[Journeyman]

Given how the WHL Sleeper leaves much earlier and arrives much later, provided a guaranteed and well-timed DMU connection was provided for the other one at Crianlarich I'm not sure it overly matters which one of the two they choose.

True. No-one ever seems to get this right.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of Aberdeen, it is pretty much built on work traffic. The city itself is just not a particularly nice place at all, it's like a run-down and overpolluted version of Edinburgh's New Town - as a tourist there's no reason you'd not just go to Edinburgh instead. Indeed, Aberdeen is also much closer to the Central Belt than the other main destinations, making the Lowlander then a connecting train more viable.

If the work traffic is declining, I can see why the Sleeper might become less viable. Indeed, I can see a situation where CS and the Scottish Government might actually consider removing the Aberdeen portion and just working the Highlander as two half-sets, one to FW and one to Inverness. The FW could then have two seated coaches, solving the walk-up "day train" issue (add the second one at Edinburgh, or convert the then-spare lounge to a TSO).

At least Inverness is a nice place. Though I'm going there in a few weeks - I'm not however going on the Sleeper because I want to actually get there

 

[Highlandspring]

Right at the very start of the seperate Caledonian Sleeper franchise I went to a meeting where one of the subjects discussed was quite a radical plan to shuffle the portions round. Part of that was that the West Highland train would be a portion of the Glasgow Lowlander, split at the Braidhurst and run via Coatbridge Basin to Oban instead of Fort William. As a result of this meeting the signalling in the Basin was upgraded to full passenger standards during the 2017 Motherwell North resignalling. Obviously none of this has happened and I never heard any more about it!

 

[VT 390]

If the sleeper just went to Inverness and Fort William could the coaches that would have gone to Aberdeen go to Oban instead?
Also I think the Fort William route would be better if there were better connections to mallaig all year round.

 

[Journeyman]

If the sleeper just went to Inverness and Fort William could the coaches that would have gone to Aberdeen go to Oban instead?
Also I think the Fort William route would be better if there were better connections to mallaig all year round.

I doubt there's sufficient demand to justify serving both Oban and Fort William.

 

[GrimShady]

Whenever I look at the Caledonian Sleeper thread, it is more often than not the Fort William branch that cause so much consternation. If the Caledonian Sleeper service only worked Aberdeen/Inverness with possibly another Scottish destination (Stranraer/Oban/Lairg?), would this be any better?

If Caledonian Sleeper abandoned the West Highland Line, how could Scotrail benefit?

Fort William is the charm of the service!

I'd like to see a Oban and Ft William train.

 

[30907]

Part of that was that the West Highland train would be a portion of the Glasgow Lowlander, split at the Braidhurst and run via Coatbridge Basin to Oban instead of Fort William.

Economical of locos, but one train with remotely sensible times in Glasgow and Oban would have been a challenge.

True. No-one ever seems to get this right.

There hasn't been a northbound connection to Oban in living memory, and given the constraints on the timetable, the only way I can see to do this would be for the sleeper to precede the early Oban (which is the school train), so running at about 60min earlier. Cue complaints from Glasgow day-trippers

Also I think the Fort William route would be better if there were better connections to mallaig all year round.

Apart from enthusiasts, would there be much of a market for London-Mallaig? For (most of) Skye you'd go Inverness and Kyle, which leaves Mallaig itself and the Small Isles.

Mind you, if the sleeper got into Ft Bill before 9, and you retimed the early Mallaig and its return working, and a few subsequent workings, you could just about manage it. Assuming the sleeper was RT.
Think that had better wait for a complete timetable recast.

 

[Clansman]

Talking of Aberdeen, it is pretty much built on work traffic. The city itself is just not a particularly nice place at all, it's like a run-down and overpolluted version of Edinburgh's New Town - as a tourist there's no reason you'd not just go to Edinburgh instead. Indeed, Aberdeen is also much closer to the Central Belt than the other main destinations, making the Lowlander then a connecting train more viable.

If the work traffic is declining, I can see why the Sleeper might become less viable. Indeed, I can see a situation where CS and the Scottish Government might actually consider removing the Aberdeen portion and just working the Highlander as two half-sets, one to FW and one to Inverness. The FW could then have two seated coaches, solving the walk-up "day train" issue (add the second one at Edinburgh, or convert the then-spare lounge to a TSO).

At least Inverness is a nice place. Though I'm going there in a few weeks - I'm not however going on the Sleeper because I want to actually get there

Spot on, though I think you are being a tad harsh on the Granite City. It's a massive student hub and a place full of the most proud people you'll ever meet in the UK.

Inverness and Fort William sleepers naturally have the advantage when it comes to deman given they are both tourist magnets with them being two of the most scenic services in the world. Aberdeen on the other hand doesn't sit on such a route which can be exploited for scenery at the current times the sleeper travels along it, and was thus always more dependent on the leisure and business market (though there were still a fair number of tourists). Any tourist demand for the route itself was

Oil workers using the service in droves has become a misconception on the forum as a few have pointed out - and the decline of the industry doesn't help the situation for the few that did use the sleeper. Also, Aberdeen is blessed with 3 direct trains to London, 1 to Leeds, and 1 through to Birmingham (and further), each day. So really, the popularity of this sleeper primarily came from economical fares in both seated and sleeper accomodation, and staff travellers. Since the bargain berths were discontinued, Serco came in, and the staff allocation slashed to the extent where it's essentially nulified - it's pretty much desolate.

The new sleeper franchise was always gunned to change the target market and place more emphasis on the tourism market with a much more professional approach, which from my experience has drastically changed the type of traveller. All good and well for Inverness and Fort William portions when tourist demand and leisure/business demand are essentially balanced to the extent where fares are relatively inelastic, but when you have a situation like the Aberdeen which is reliant on leisure and bsuiness travellers, it's now become priced out for those who used to travel on it simply because it's more economic to take advantage of the excellent day frequencies - something which Inverness and Fort William aren't blessed with.

The way forward to get the service on the up again would be for more subsidy to reduce fares and provide incentives to upgrade to berths on the Aberdeen portion when it's quieter to encourage repeat custom in future. In addition, if it's worth chopping a sleeper coach from somewhere, then running the Fort William seated accomodation all the way to London to allow Aberdeen to maximise it's seated provisions would be a good start (as the seated accomodation on the Aberdeen is the only consistently used part of the service). Allowing seated passengers into the lounge and increasing staff allocations are more short term measures that could be implemented to boost the service.

Although I think the ill-fated pod seating was what Serco were banking on for the Aberdeen in particular, given it's the perfect solution to targetting the market it serves. I think that if it got passed regulations we'd see the Aberdeen sleeper faring much better when the Mk5s come in than what they will.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they're a seated coach short of doing that, aren't they? They'd have to convert something.

If they had a spare seated coach it'd make more sense to put it on the FW portion from Edinburgh to have separate overnight and day seated coaches and avoid the reservation issues they presently have.

That said, a through seated coach Euston-FW would probably up the custom on that section - not only does FW have "posh" holidaymakers, but also a lot of on-the-cheap young hillwalkers and climbers who would happily take the seated coach but probably don't fancy having to get up at 4am to switch over. There's also no through overnight road coach, so that's a further advantage to CS.

 

[Clansman]

I think they're a seated coach short of doing that, aren't they? They'd have to convert something.

If they had a spare seated coach it'd make more sense to put it on the FW portion from Edinburgh to have separate overnight and day seated coaches and avoid the reservation issues they presently have.

They have 11 in total, so 2 spare each night.

I completely agree. It's just a shame that the whole portion working has to be orientated around platform capacity at Euston, forcing CS to be a bit more creative if they want to reap the most out of the service.

 

[JonathanH]

Apart from enthusiasts, would there be much of a market for London-Mallaig? For (most of) Skye you'd go Inverness and Kyle, which leaves Mallaig itself and the Small Isles.

There is already a market for London to Mallaig - it is just that you do the last bit on a steam service at a fairly convenient time of day.

 

[adrock1976]

There is already a market for London to Mallaig - it is just that you do the last bit on a steam service at a fairly convenient time of day.

Only during the summer period.

The Jacobite does not run during October to May.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only during the summer period.

The Jacobite does not run during October to May.

It's not so much of a winter destination, really. (FW itself is - as a winter mountaineering destination - indeed that's when and why I've mostly been).

 

[GrimShady]

When I was offshore I wasn't aware of anyone who used the sleeper going to Aberdeen.

 

[geoffk]

The Aberdeen sleeper has been dying since First done away with bargain berths, which was compiled with low usage rendering it all but decimated after it was split from ScotRail and Serco took over.

Exaggeration it may be but compared to what it was like 10 year ago, it's a sad state of affairs that the Aberdeen one has become.

Fort William in contrast has been booming, and if it wasn't for platform length constraints on the WHL and at Euston, it could easily fill the same portion sizes as the Inverness.

The Fort William portion carries day passengers (I think all the way from Edinburgh), the Inverness portion carries commuters from Kingussie northwards, but, as I recall, the Aberdeen carries no local passengers at all.

 

[GrimShady]

The Fort William portion carries day passengers (I think all the way from Edinburgh), the Inverness portion carries commuters from Kingussie northwards, but, as I recall, the Aberdeen carries no local passengers at all.

Correct. The Ft Bill portion counts as the first day service.

 

[Clansman]

The Fort William portion carries day passengers (I think all the way from Edinburgh), the Inverness portion carries commuters from Kingussie northwards, but, as I recall, the Aberdeen carries no local passengers at all.

Ye that's right.
Also, only the Fort William portion takes day passengers when heading south.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If there are spare seating coaches once it's fully Mk5, I wonder why they don't plan to solve the "seat reservations" issue by putting two on the FW, one for overnight passengers and one for day passengers? It could be handled, in the manner of the VTWC Chesters, by putting an extra "mirror" train in the timetable so people reserve in the right bit.

If there was a failure they could always short-form and accommodate them standing or in the lounge car.

 

[30907]

Only during the summer period.

The Jacobite does not run during October to May.

And assuming it isnt fully booked - or do they allow Muggles with tickets from London to board anyway?

 

[47271]

Fort William and Inverness are both well loaded year round now, so absolutely Aberdeen is the problem.

I realise that there are capacity issues between Aberdeen and Inverness, but they need to find a way of starting the portion from Inverness and running it via Elgin. I repeat myself on this subject whenever hand wringing over Aberdeen starts up again.

- it'll act as a safety valve on fully booked Inverness services. Can't get on sir? Set off a little earlier and we can still fit you in. Or if you don't mind getting to Inverness around 10am we can help you that way too.
- a whole new market of intermediate stations opened up to CS. They're mostly quite sizeable towns and a direct sleeper could put rail in contention versus air.
- no more need to service vehicles in Aberdeen as a matter of routine, everything taken care of in Inverness, so a cost saving.
- Moray could do with all the help it can get at the moment and there's a whisky tourism marketing opportunity via Keith or Elgin that fits precisely with CS target market.

I'm sure someone could come up with all sorts of reasons not to, but have they got any better ideas?