Should a separate category be reintroduced for double deck driving?

[joieman]

Apart from London, where else?

Arriva have possibly up to five in Leicester. That's where I've been seeing them.

 

[Titfield]

Agreed, drivers being trained for better route knowledge rather than type training would be idea.

But this ignore the fundamental question as to why drivers still ignore the bold warnings painted on the bridge itself.

Technology has its limitations as there are documented cases where train drivers and pilots have simply ignored or cancelled alarms.

 

[RJ]

What about bendybuses?

I operate a bendy bus which is virtually in daily service. It can be driven on a normal Category D bus licence. It really should not be allowed as the bus type makes the insurers blood run cold, presumably because of a horrific accident per mile figure from when they were popular.

However, no +E entitlement is required because by law a trailer is defined as an unpowered vehicle that is towed by a powered one - with artics, the tractor is the the rear unit so it bypasses the need for a special licence. The physics element is the same so the +E entitlement should be required.

So it’s down to the bus operator to excise care in who they allow to drive them and train the drivers properly.

To date I haven’t trained anyone new to artics, but the only people I would consider is those with a Category D+E licence, or Category D, plus a HGV artic licence with demonstrable artic experience.

I wasn’t trained by anyone myself, I bought the bus then spent hours in the O2 coach park learning the physics of it, how to reverse straight, round corners and into parking bays. Anyone who drives it needs to demonstrate they can do the same capably! It does command a premium of £5 an hour if driven on shift.

 

[73001]

The recent railway bridge bash in Bolton was a double-decker on a shortcut to the depot. Apparently single deckers are banned from going under it, although they fit. I assume this is because you might forget you are a single decker. Apparently, not confirmed - it was an out-of-town bus agency worker who hit the bridge.

We do that at my depot.. we don't take any bus under certain bridges even though some will fit... that way there's no confusion as to what you are driving.
We also have the add-on on the Ticketer machines that gives a warning for any bridge under 16ft... you get 6 beeps and a yellow warning screen.

 

[PG]

We also have the add-on on the Ticketer machines that gives a warning for any bridge under 16ft... you get 6 beeps and a yellow warning screen.

To my mind that is going to cause routine driver cancellations, since full height deckers are around the 14'6" mark, which increases the chance of a driver cancelling the warning at a bridge which is lower than the bus.

 

[Leedsbusman]

To my mind that is going to cause routine driver cancellations, since full height deckers are around the 14'6" mark, which increases the chance of a driver cancelling the warning at a bridge which is lower than the bus.

If correctly calibrated it triggers an alert appropriate to the height of the bus.

 

[PG]

If correctly calibrated it triggers an alert appropriate to the height of the bus.

Thanks for the info, I haven't driven a decker in the last seven years and back then these systems didn't exist - at least not where I worked!

 

[Titfield]

Perhaps the simplest solution is for the low bridge alert to sound loudly in the passenger cabin so at the very least passengers have time to duck.

 

[318266]

Perhaps on the top front corners, facing forward could be two radar beacons + cameras that throw on the brakes if it becomes obvious it is about to suddenly be disconnected from the cab!

 

[Mwanesh]

Apart from London, where else?

National Express West Midlands has double decker buses.You can have all the technology but it all comes down the driver. As an example when we started using triaxle coaches the amount of rear end damage we had was shocking.It was just drivers used to single axle coaches.

 

[Titfield]

.It was just drivers used to single axle coaches.

The brain gets used to routine. The problem is that when that routine is changed, the brain adjusts to the new routine but on occasion for reasons which arent fully understood reverts to the old routine.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

So, bearing in mind I know nothing as I've never driven a bus in my life. It's something which has always interested me.

So you pass your test to drive a bus, and you can drive any bus or coach - even if you passed driving a single decker?

Does driving a double decker feel different to driving a single decker? I've always wondered if the weight of the deck on top and the shape made double decker drive and handle differently?

Thanks.

When I was taking my mod 3b test I did it in a coach, which was in my opinion too big especially for the roads I were taken on as they were too narrow but whilst driving I treat the coach as a decker by being extra cautious when it came to bridges and tight corners as the risk of any overhanging structures would catch the top of the vehicle. I'll be retaking the 3b again soon (as I failed the first time) once I hear back from one of three operators.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I'm sorry. I guess you didn't choose the vehicle or route?

Also, can extra height mean vehicles have to be shorter? Reason I ask is, Stagecoach Exeter are ordering some electric single deck buses for a tight route. The EVs are taller than the old diesels, and only just fit the low clearance. They are also shorter.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'm sorry. I guess you didn't choose the vehicle or route?

Nope, just what was allocated to the driver training fleet.

 

[greenline712]

When I was taking my mod 3b test I did it in a coach, which was in my opinion too big especially for the roads I were taken on as they were too narrow but whilst driving I treat the coach as a decker by being extra cautious when it came to bridges and tight corners as the risk of any overhanging structures would catch the top of the vehicle. I'll be retaking the 3b again soon (as I failed the first time) once I hear back from one of three operators.

There is a school of thought that the bigger the bus/coach, the better . . . the test route won't be random, but will have been thought out in advance and likely used many hundreds of times. It will be designed to put the trainee through a variety of scenarios . . . each is designed to see how they react to each one. If you really thought the route was too tight, then stopping and explaining to the examiner why you don't feel comfortable proceeding won't necessarily result in a demerit mark.

There is another school of thought that failing the first test is good . . . it teaches the trainee that they are not perfect, and learning from your errors is a good thing.

Persevere . . . I passed on my fourth attempt !! There were extenuating circumstances on test two and test three, but it still taught me a valuable lesson !!

 

[PG]

When I was taking my mod 3b test I did it in a coach,

Pardon my ignorance, what is mod 3b?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Pardon my ignorance, what is mod 3b?

Module 3b PCV driving test. Module 4 being the driver CPC.

 

[PG]

Module 3b PCV driving test. Module 4 being the driver CPC.

Thanks, as may be apparent my PCV test predates this!

 

[stevieinselby]

Also, can extra height mean vehicles have to be shorter? Reason I ask is, Stagecoach Exeter are ordering some electric single deck buses for a tight route. The EVs are taller than the old diesels, and only just fit the low clearance. They are also shorter.

It will depend on the height restriction in question. If the road dips down sharply, eg under a railway bridge, then it might be that a shorter vehicle can get away with being a bit taller where a longer vehicle would be at risk of snagging the bridge – or if the road twists under an arch bridge then a shorter bus might give a bit more room for manoeuvre. Or they may just have decided the route didn't need such big buses as before for other reasons!

 

[Eyersey468]

Would you be able to have a GPS system that would slam the breaks if it detects you about to drive under a bridge you can't fit ,or are they not precise enough to do so? My phone certainly wouldn't be.
Or even a radio beacon on the Bridge maybe.

I think that would cause more problems than it solves. We have collision avoidance systems on some of the coaches and often they go off when there is no risk of a collision but when there really is a risk there's not a peep from it

 

[busken]

I operate a bendy bus which is virtually in daily service. It can be driven on a normal Category D bus licence. It really should not be allowed as the bus type makes the insurers blood run cold, presumably because of a horrific accident per mile figure from when they were popular.

However, no +E entitlement is required because by law a trailer is defined as an unpowered vehicle that is towed by a powered one - with artics, the tractor is the the rear unit so it bypasses the need for a special licence. The physics element is the same so the +E entitlement should be required.

So it’s down to the bus operator to excise care in who they allow to drive them and train the drivers properly.

To date I haven’t trained anyone new to artics, but the only people I would consider is those with a Category D+E licence, or Category D, plus a HGV artic licence with demonstrable artic experience.

I wasn’t trained by anyone myself, I bought the bus then spent hours in the O2 coach park learning the physics of it, how to reverse straight, round corners and into parking bays. Anyone who drives it needs to demonstrate they can do the same capably! It does command a premium of £5 an hour if driven on shift.

That surprises me! I drive a lorry and drawbar trailer, which is in effect the same thing, but definitely need a C+E licence. I don't know if it is still the same, but when I took my PSV test in a coach, because I already had a C+E, I automatically got a D+E. As to whether you should have a separate test for double deck buses, I would say no. When you take an HGV test it covers you for all lorries (C for rigids and C+E for artics and drawbars) irrespective of whether it is a flat bed or a 16'6" high box.