Should a Class 365 unit be preserved?

[Paul Jones 88]

I don't suppose that someone would preserve a 365?

 

[ScotRail158725]

I don't suppose that someone would preserve a 365?

EMUs are harder to preserve and theres more of an interest in older BREL EMUs than networkers so no

 

[DustyBin]

I don't suppose that someone would preserve a 365?

Doubtful, sadly. Were these the last trains built for/under BR? If so I could see a driving car from the last unit to be built being preserved, although I'd rather see a full unit kept operational obviously.

 

[Mamorin]

Doubtful, sadly. Were these the last trains built for/under BR? If so I could see a driving car from the last unit to be built being preserved, although I'd rather see a full unit kept operational obviously.

The 365s were not the last trains to be built under BR, I think that honour belongs to the 323s as the 323s were built between 1992 and 1996.

365s were built between 1994 and 1995.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Perhaps last order - if not, certainly the last units to be built at York before it closed?

 

[Mamorin]

Perhaps last order - if not, certainly the last units to be built at York before it closed?

Class 365s were the last units to be built at York before it closed.

Given the build year of 1994-1995 the 365s must surely have been the last units to be ordered by BR.

 

[fgwrich]

Class 365s were the last units to be built at York before it closed.

Given the build year of 1994-1995 the 365s must surely have been the last units to be ordered by BR.

Certainly the last units ordered by BR and the first new units entering traffic under privatisation?

 

[bramling]

Certainly the last units ordered by BR and the first new units entering traffic under privatisation?

I’m sure the 323s were well in service before the 365s. *However*, could the last 323s have been sufficiently late in coming to have at least got close to the 365s? I seem to remember the 365s were quite a long time coming.

I’d say it’s a given 365541 is the last BR-era train to enter service though. 365540 and 541 I seem to remember being quite late being delivered. They are the pair which WAGN took for a day trip to York.

I’m not that familiar with the history of the 323s, however it’s noticeable the last units (323240-243) are based in Birmingham. Was this a final batch which if ordered late in the day could certainly have coincided with the 365s being built.

 

[DustyBin]

The 365s were not the last trains to be built under BR, I think that honour belongs to the 323s as the 323s were built between 1992 and 1996.

365s were built between 1994 and 1995.

Thanks, I forgot about the 323s!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2021 ==

I’m sure the 323s were well in service before the 365s. *However*, could the last 323s have been sufficiently late in coming to have at least got close to the 365s? I seem to remember the 365s were quite a long time coming.

I’d say it’s a given 365541 is the last BR-era train to enter service though. 365540 and 541 I seem to remember being quite late being delivered. They are the pair which WAGN took for a day trip to York.

I’m not that familiar with the history of the 323s, however it’s noticeable the last units (323240-243) are based in Birmingham. Was this a final batch which if ordered late in the day could certainly have coincided with the 365s being built.

There’s still a potential claim to fame then.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m not that familiar with the history of the 323s, however it’s noticeable the last units (323240-243) are based in Birmingham.

They were delivered under a different funding arrangement which is why they are numbered separately. I don't think they were a delayed build.

 

[bramling]

They were delivered under a different funding arrangement which is why they are numbered separately. I don't think they were a delayed build.

Okay that makes sense, I did vaguely remember there was something which differentiated them. Naturally being the highest numbered I presume it’s fair to assume they were last built?

My money’s still on 365541 though.

Of course, the 365s entered service very much *after* the demise of BR. Can anyone point to the last item of rolling stock to enter service under BR?

 

[43096]

Can anyone point to the last item of rolling stock to enter service under BR?

It depends what you define as when you think BR ended!

As the ROSCOs were formed from 01/04/1994, I'd say the last thing to be accepted before then would be 323219, accepted 30/03/1994. However, Railfreight Distribution was BR owned until sold as part of the RfD sale to EWS on 22/11/1997 and 92003 was the last to be accepted on 24/03/1997. I'd put 92003 as the last to enter service under BR; coincidentally it also worked the very last BR service on the night of 21-22/11/1997.

 

[Mamorin]

Okay that makes sense, I did vaguely remember there was something which differentiated them. Naturally being the highest numbered I presume it’s fair to assume they were last built?

My money’s still on 365541 though.

Of course, the 365s entered service very much *after* the demise of BR. Can anyone point to the last item of rolling stock to enter service under BR?

Only 43 323 sets were ever built so yes 323240-243 were the last 323s to be built, not sure when in 1996 those last 3 sets entered service though.

When would you consider the demise of BR to have been? As knowing that would help answer your question.

 

[warwickshire]

They were delivered under a different funding arrangement which is why they are numbered separately. I don't think they were a delayed build.

What I can remember is these x3 units was funded by the royal bank off Scotland can remember the funding plates on them when brand new.
In joint conjunction with centro pte authoritie.
In order to oust the final west Yorkshire livery 308 units on hire to regional railways Central ie to go back over to the north east at Leeds. Due to needed back there.
However this meant they didn't go to the north west.
Whilst a handful off 305 units remained until 2000 for local services.
However 365 was the final class to be built under br at a br factory ie York.
Remember the network south east class 47 dragging them.
323 was contracted out ie to holec Leeds but the final class to be ordered under br.

 

[bramling]

Only 43 323 sets were ever built so yes 323240-243 were the last 323s to be built, not sure when in 1996 those last 3 sets entered service though.

When would you consider the demise of BR to have been? As knowing that would help answer your question.

That’s a grey area in itself. There’s April 94 for privatisation day, however the Connex South Eastern franchise started on 13/10/96 and WAGN 5/1/97 (from a cursory glance at Wikipedia!). I think on balance the end of BR should be considered as when each respective shadow franchise went private.

I have a date of 17/10/96 for the first Connex 365 in traffic, and I’m 99% sure the GN examples didn’t enter service until after the WAGN franchise started. Certainly 365540 & 541 were some time later.

So it seems fairly certain the 365s didn’t enter service under BR, though they would have been *delivered* to the South Eastern shadow franchise under BR, and quite possibly to the WAGN shadow franchise too.

Does anyone know when the last 323 entered service?

None of this helps with when the units were under build of course, especially as at least some 365s seem to have spent time sitting around. It’s certainly probably the last 323s could still have been in works whilst 365s were in production, but from the dates we have it does seem 365540 & 541 would still have been under construction when all the 323s were in traffic.

I’d still say on balance 365541 takes the crown.

 

[DustyBin]

That’s a grey area in itself. There’s April 94 for privatisation day, however the Connex South Eastern franchise started on 13/10/96 and WAGN 5/1/97 (from a cursory glance at Wikipedia!). I think on balance the end of BR should be considered as when each respective shadow franchise went private.

I think the last franchise to hand over was ScotRail in (March?) 1997.

 

[greyman42]

However 365 was the final class to be built under br at a br factory ie York.

Unless you mean former BR factory, York was not a BR factory, it was ABB.

 

[warwickshire]

Unless you mean former BR factory, York was not a BR factory, it was ABB.

Yes . That's the one. Thanks for that.

 

[brad465]

That’s a grey area in itself. There’s April 94 for privatisation day, however the Connex South Eastern franchise started on 13/10/96 and WAGN 5/1/97 (from a cursory glance at Wikipedia!). I think on balance the end of BR should be considered as when each respective shadow franchise went private.

I have a date of 17/10/96 for the first Connex 365 in traffic, and I’m 99% sure the GN examples didn’t enter service until after the WAGN franchise started. Certainly 365540 & 541 were some time later.

So it seems fairly certain the 365s didn’t enter service under BR, though they would have been *delivered* to the South Eastern shadow franchise under BR, and quite possibly to the WAGN shadow franchise too.

Did 365s with Connex ever actually run in service with an NSE paintjob? There's photo evidence of them being in that livery in construction, but no evidence I can find of them in service with CSE in that livery. It's possible they never did given the dates in question, and I'm guessing WAGN were more reluctant to paint them into something else (indigo specifically).

Have any other scrap runs been finalised yet (apologies if I've missed details)?

 

[bramling]

Did 365s with Connex ever actually run in service with an NSE paintjob? There's photo evidence of them being in that livery in construction, but no evidence I can find of them in service with CSE in that livery. It's possible they never did given the dates in question, and I'm guessing WAGN were more reluctant to paint them into something else (indigo specifically).

I don’t think they did. It seems Connex were keen to promote the 365s at the time.

WAGN had their own ideas regarding livery. The 365s were under paint warranty, and they claimed not to relivery anything unless this was accompanied by an enhancement to the interior. So the 317/2s were the first units to get a new livery, and this came some time after the 365s appeared. Apart from the Stansted units, I think I’m right in saying these were the only units under the original incarnation of WAGN which received a livery - the 313s and 315s spent some while in undercoat white, until purple became the new thing, which the 365s never got either as it happens.

One can look at it as not wanting to waste money on branding, or pennypinching. I find it odd the 313s were never painted to match the 317s at refurbishment though.

About the only thing WAGN got right was the 317/2 refurb and the new seats in the 313s. Otherwise their operation was distinctly second-rate, ironically until National Express took over.

 

[Hadders]

AFAIK the 365s were delivered in NSE livery and a 10 year warranty effectively meant a new paint job couldn’t be done.

The connex units received yellow connex vinyls which were removed when they transferred to WAGN. I seem to remember three Units received advertising vinyls under WAGN (Garden City theme, I think).

When First Capital Connect took over they applied vinyls to the 365s, it was only when they had their more recent GTR dumbing down refresh that they were repainted.

 

[Fuzzytop]

AFAIK the 365s were delivered in NSE livery and a 10 year warranty effectively meant a new paint job couldn’t be done.

The connex units received yellow connex vinyls which were removed when they transferred to WAGN. I seem to remember three Units received advertising vinyls under WAGN (Garden City theme, I think).

When First Capital Connect took over they applied vinyls to the 365s, it was only when they had their more recent GTR dumbing down refresh that they were repainted.

wasn't the dumbing down refresh (although I did like the colour scheme!) started under the final year or so of FCC? I recall seeing at least one in the silver livery with a FCC logo down the side. I wonder if any applicants for the TSGN franchise in 2014 planned to retain all the 365s. Wishful thinking...

 

[Hadders]

I don’t remember 365s in dumbed down livery, although I could be mistaken. I’m sure @bramling will know.

 

[bramling]

I don’t remember 365s in dumbed down livery, although I could be mistaken. I’m sure @bramling will know.

From what I remember, the first couple of units were put through the mechanical aspects of the overhaul, but returned to service with the interior untouched. I’m pretty sure the livery was untouched too.

I think it was 365517 which was the first “dumbed down”, and I’m pretty sure it emerged in the TSGN livery. I seem to remember the grab rails and floor were a slightly lighter shade on the first couple of units, a feature they retained. Given the timings, it may well still have been under FCC, especially as the livery was chosen for its neutrality.

So as far as I can recall the only units which have ever worked in anything other than Connex, NSE, FCC or TSGN livery were the four advert sets.


The only other livery is the dark blue doors which some of the ScotRail units received.

 

[fgwrich]

wasn't the dumbing down refresh (although I did like the colour scheme!) started under the final year or so of FCC? I recall seeing at least one in the silver livery with a FCC logo down the side. I wonder if any applicants for the TSGN franchise in 2014 planned to retain all the 365s. Wishful thinking...

back to scrap, here's a depressing scene from Booths, 365501 and 365511 awaiting their fate while Mk4s join the pile of rubble in the distance:

https://twitter.com/Rail_Photter/status/1444046269329117196/photo/1

Not as far as I'm aware. IIRC The plan was to keep a little over half the units on the GN (The even numbered units) while the odd numbered units were intended to go over to the GWML after GWEP (itself replacing the original plan of using cast off 319s). Of course Porterbrook won the coin toss of the day with that after offering to increase their speculative order batch of 387s (which went to C2C in the end).

That TSGN refurbishment certainly took some of their quality feeling out of them - the carpeted flooring and small tables were both great additions, sadly lost when the cheapening of TSGN came into force.

 

[bramling]

Not as far as I'm aware. IIRC The plan was to keep a little over half the units on the GN (The even numbered units) while the odd numbered units were intended to go over to the GWML after GWEP (itself replacing the original plan of using cast off 319s). Of course Porterbrook won the coin toss of the day with that after offering to increase their speculative order batch of 387s (which went to C2C in the end).

That TSGN refurbishment certainly took some of their quality feeling out of them - the carpeted flooring and small tables were both great additions, sadly lost when the cheapening of TSGN came into force.

I think the decision to go with 387s on GWR was probably the right one.

Where things went wrong was planning to remove the 365s from GN in the first place. With the Cambridge stopping service seemingly increasingly unlikely to go through the core, there has always been sufficient useful employment for approximately 40x 365s on GN. 16 diagrams for Cambridge, 17 peak diagrams adds up to 33. Add in the 6 Peterborough 387 diagrams and this increases to 39, which with a bit of efficiency could likely be shuffled down to 37 out of 40, which was what they originally ran with.

The eight surplus 700/0s would perhaps have more usefully materialised as a slightly larger 700/1 fleet, thus not having 700/0 diagrams on predominantly 700/1 routes.

 

[brad465]

I don't suppose that someone would preserve a 365?

EMUs are harder to preserve and theres more of an interest in older BREL EMUs than networkers so no

I don't know how much it counts as preservation, but didn't the three carriages of 365526 that were not severely damaged in Potters Bar stay put in Crewe for a while, even though no further operational use was possible? I don't know where they are now, although IIRC they may have been used to trial new liveries/interiors (happy to be corrected on this).

 

[Titch]

Pretty sure that two of the cars from 365526 ended up at RAF Spadeadam for ‘target practice’ (whatever that entailed). I think it’s pretty safe to say they aren’t extant anymore.

 

[bramling]

Pretty sure that two of the cars from 365526 ended up at RAF Spadeadam for ‘target practice’ (whatever that entailed). I think it’s pretty safe to say they aren’t extant anymore.

Correct. The damaged driving car, and one trailer. The other trailer was scrapped at Booths a year or two ago. This leaves the other driving vehicle unaccounted for - as far as we know this still exists, unless it has slipped away under the radar.

 

[2192]

If your going to preserve anything, it would be more sense to wait a few years and then preserve a 165 DMU rather than a 365 (or a 465 for that matter), as they are all much the same apart from method of traction, length, and speed; and a 165 could at least be used for excursions more widely. You could paint it in 365 colours if you wanted.