shotrest signal section on nr lines

[westcoaster]

hi guys just thought i would try and find out what is the shortest signal section on any nr line, ( not the tube, or shunt sig's), because between the signal's on the end of plat 17+18 at euston and the next signal is only about 2-3 coach length's , this vid from joe h kind of shows it, the first sid is where the leading 37 is and you can clearly see the second one.:tard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA3d_i2gM4I

are there any other close one's, if so what distance apart are they?

 

[Tom]

Brighton platform 3 (West Coastway) comes to mind.

 

[Donny Dave]

Kings Cross P1 is a good contender as well....

 

[Mojo]

Leaving Fenchurch Street has signals very closely spaced, when you're on the DLR you can see it best.

 

[westcoaster]

thanks so far any idea on distaces? the ones at euston must be 50-75 metres

 

[devon_metro]

5m separates two shunt signals coming out of Goodrington yard...

 

[westcoaster]

i know the one at euston of the end of the platform is for if trains use plat 17b but it is still a section for two over signals,

 

[GeoffM]

the signal's [sic] on the end of plat 17+18 at euston and the next signal is only about 2-3 coach length's [sic]

This, Brighton, and King's Cross examples are NOT signal sections - all require the far signal to be off before the near signal will clear. Paddington is another example of this - platforms 11 and 12 (?). You therefore cannot signal a train up to the second signal - well, you can, but the first signal won't clear.

However, Birmingham NS *does* have very close signals - you can be routed up to the end of the platform with a green midway along the platform and a yellow near the end, with a red at the end. With the lack of overlaps you rarely see this happen - presumably box instructions state that they shouldn't route to the end unless signalling out to Proof House or whatever. Some of these signals are only 20-30m apart (my scheme plans are in a box somewhere). No TD berths though for the end-of-platform signals.

Yes, Borough Market has some close signals, but all are over 100m IIRC. They're probably some of the closest on mainline territory outside of station areas.

Geoff M.

 

[Kris]

5m separates two shunt signals coming out of Goodrington yard...

A well SPADed signal because of that too. Can't remember which way round now but the Signalman gives you one dummy and the other comes off when the guard operates the barriers.

What about the shortest sections not in a platform? Approaches too Waterloo are pretty close with sections just over a 12 car length long.

Fratton to Pompey & Southsea are fairly close too.

 

[Tomnick]

This photo (from the Hastings Diesels website news section - here) shows the absolute block section between (Lincoln) High Street and East Holmes. High Street's down section signal (with East Holmes' distant underneath) is immediately before the level crossing in the middle distance. East Holme's home signal is at the other end of the large brick building - no more than about six coach lengths!

 

[Kris]

What's it like now? I presume they've got rid of the semaphores (although I was surprised to see a few at Banbury still).

 

[Tomnick]

That's what it still looks like! It's scheduled for resignalling in the next couple of years though...

...but there's no plans that I'm aware of to get rid of this lot, just a few miles to the north .

 

[Kris]

Ahh - proper railway. Where's the cabin cat?

 

[class 313]

What's it like now? I presume they've got rid of the semaphores (although I was surprised to see a few at Banbury still).

Lincoln still has its set. BUT they should be going in the summer.

 

[westcoaster]

on the up and down fast lines at watford juction there is a sig on the end of the platform, and one just before, so you have two trains seperated by about 35-40 metres regular thing on a sunday when the slow lines are closed

 

[paul1609]

This, Brighton, and King's Cross examples are NOT signal sections - all require the far signal to be off before the near signal will clear. Paddington is another example of this - platforms 11 and 12 (?). You therefore cannot signal a train up to the second signal - well, you can, but the first signal won't clear.

However, Birmingham NS *does* have very close signals - you can be routed up to the end of the platform with a green midway along the platform and a yellow near the end, with a red at the end. With the lack of overlaps you rarely see this happen - presumably box instructions state that they shouldn't route to the end unless signalling out to Proof House or whatever. Some of these signals are only 20-30m apart (my scheme plans are in a box somewhere). No TD berths though for the end-of-platform signals.

Yes, Borough Market has some close signals, but all are over 100m IIRC. They're probably some of the closest on mainline territory outside of station areas.

Geoff M.

I'd be very surprised if the Intermediate Signal on Platform 3 at Brighton isnt regarded as a signalling section as the signal protects points on a divergent route. Whilst the Platform End Signal needs to be cleared for a movement on to the Main and East Coastway the signal acts as the starter for movements on to the West Coastway. I think from memory its also possible to have 2 trains on Platform 3 and for the Main Platform 3 signal to be cleared but not the intermediate signal.

 

[class 313]

on the up and down fast lines at watford juction there is a sig on the end of the platform, and one just before, so you have two trains seperated by about 35-40 metres regular thing on a sunday when the slow lines are closed

Very true!

Though by the time the train behind gets to the signal before the platform, the other one would be off and the one still at the signal before the platform would get a yellow before actually stopping.

 

[O L Leigh]

There's a big difference between how close together individual signals are and how long the signal section is.

We have signals about a coach-length apart on the ends of some of the platforms at LST. The reason they are there is because there are scissors crossovers within the length of the platform. Where a train is short enough to be within the crossovers, it is possible that the train could be routed in either direction past another main aspect signal at the end of either platform. In this situation, both signals must be "off", with the first signal additionally giving an arrow indication to signal to the driver where the next signal is.

I would be very surprised if the space in between was classed as a signal section. For one thing, you won't get the first one come off to single yellow for you to draw forward to the second at red. However, both signals have to follow the normal sequence of signal aspects as each are a main aspect stop signal.

As for the Euston clip, perhaps I'm missing something but I only saw the train pass one signal. There is another signal briefly in shot just as the lead loco is about to pass the camera, but that applies to the adjacent line (you can clearly see the TPWS trainstop loops in the other "4 foot" parallel to the signal itself, which comes into view a couple of seconds later).

one TN

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed, just because you've got two signals within a few metres of each other, doesn't mean you've got a short section - in absolute block land, I can think of signals that are very close together! They're within station limits though, so the space between them isn't a block section as such. Take this example, also at Lincoln...

(from this page - well worth a look)

You can see how short the distance is between the platform starter and the section signal. The platform starter can be cleared on its own to allow a train to approach (but not pass) the section signal, as per the absolute block regs. Even if you could, say, stand a light engine between the two signals, you still couldn't allow another train to enter the platform...because absolute block regs state that you need 440yds ahead of the home signal clear before High Street can accept a following train from Pelham Street. The platforms are signalled permissively, which adds a bit of a twist...but we'll leave that for now.

Ahh - proper railway. Where's the cabin cat?

Perched on top of the lamp indicator at Quorn...

 

[GeoffM]

There's a big difference between how close together individual signals are and how long the signal section is.

We have signals about a coach-length apart on the ends of some of the platforms at LST. [...]

And that's another example. London Victoria P18/19 are the same: again, not a signal section.

I'd be very surprised if the Intermediate Signal on Platform 3 at Brighton isnt regarded as a signalling section as the signal protects points on a divergent route. Whilst the Platform End Signal needs to be cleared for a movement on to the Main and East Coastway the signal acts as the starter for movements on to the West Coastway. I think from memory its also possible to have 2 trains on Platform 3 and for the Main Platform 3 signal to be cleared but not the intermediate signal.

You're right, I'd forgotten about that signal. The one adjacent on P2 is the one I was thinking of which cannot clear until the far end starter is also off. The one on P3 (T450) will clear to a single yellow as both of the next signals (T667, towards Shoreham, and T438, towards London) both have overlaps.

Geoff M.

 

[westcoaster]

As for the Euston clip, perhaps I'm missing something but I only saw the train pass one signal. There is another signal briefly in shot just as the lead loco is about to pass the camera, but that applies to the adjacent line (you can clearly see the TPWS trainstop loops in the other "4 foot" parallel to the signal itself, which comes into view a couple of seconds later).

one TN

the first signal is where the train start's from end of plat 17a, and the second signal is in view after about 38 sec's, wrong side to plat 17b, the other sig is for plat 18,

 

[Kris]

(from this page - well worth a look)

Looks a great place to take pictures - only thing missing are some nice steam engines

 

[Nick W]

Could between finsbury park and moorgate contend by any chance?