Shortest Turnaround

[Huntergreed]

What is the shortest turnaround time a train can be given. Say a 390 comes into Euston at 12:00 and the crew head off for a break, when is the earliest that unit can be used again, and how early are crew and drivers required to be onboard before departure?

 

[Kite159]

Depends what service that unit was previously working.

A 390 at Euston will be a longer turnaround than say a 150 at Wrexham Central or a 376 at Cannon Street

(What has always amazed me is the turnaround time at Brixton for Victoria Line services)

 

[Failed Unit]

What is the shortest turnaround time a train can be given. Say a 390 comes into Euston at 12:00 and the crew head off for a break, when is the earliest that unit can be used again, and how early are crew and drivers required to be onboard before departure?

It varies, some Commuting TOCs are just 5 mins. Not sure if a different driver takes it out, but observe Moorgate in the peak. It is literally load / unload away.

Intercity operators have more to do with catering to load. I have seen east coast do 10 minutes at KX in disruption but lots of tasks not done such as reservations labels.

 

[Bungle965]

I seem to have a vague recollection of the Wrexham Central to Wrexham General services having a negative turnaround time at some point. Might be wrong though.
Sam

 

[Nym]

Depends what service that unit was previously working.

A 390 at Euston will be a longer turnaround than say a 150 at Wrexham Central or a 376 at Cannon Street

(What has always amazed me is the turnaround time at Brixton for Victoria Line services)

Yup, can be under 40 seconds in the peaks, the same at Walthamstow Central nowerdays as well.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I seem to remember the turnaround time at Lymington Pier was about 4min

 

[causton]

Sorry guys, I'm sure this has been done before

The shortest I recall is... minus 2 minutes for most of the day at Wrexham Central!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WXC/2016/10/17/0200-0159

 

[northernchris]

Some Northern service have 3 minutes turnaround during the peaks, meaning even an on time arrival can lead to a late departure

 

[Bungle965]

Sorry guys, I'm sure this has been done before

The shortest I recall is... minus 2 minutes for most of the day at Wrexham Central!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WXC/2016/10/17/0200-0159

Thought so!
Sam

 

[Mojo]

There's a train that is timetabled to arrive at Severn Beach 1753 and leave 1754. A couple more also that have 2 Min.

 

[dk1]

If arriving Liverpool Street with a delayed Norwich service, we are supposed to be able to turnaround the 90/MK3 set with same crew in 8 minutes.

 

[yorkie]

I seem to have a vague recollection of the Wrexham Central to Wrexham General services having a negative turnaround time at some point. Might be wrong though.
Sam

You are correct, though it is only negative in the public timetable (this makes performance figures look better, and also means some people who are 30 minutes late in the booked timetable get to miss out on Delay Repay).

It's booked to have a positive turnaround time in the working timetable.

 

[Bungle965]

You are correct, though it is only negative in the public timetable (this makes performance figures look better, and also means some people who are 30 minutes late in the booked timetable get to miss out on Delay Repay).

It's booked to have a positive turnaround time in the working timetable.

Thanks for the info.
Sam

 

[The Planner]

What is the shortest turnaround time a train can be given. Say a 390 comes into Euston at 12:00 and the crew head off for a break, when is the earliest that unit can be used again, and how early are crew and drivers required to be onboard before departure?

Timetable Planning Rules are your friend, in your example it would be a minimum of 20 minutes before that train departs again if it came from Brum, longer if its further north.

 

[tsr]

Local planning rules and instructions vary all over the place. As has been hinted above, the shortest and simplest turnaround time calculations generally involve the same crew and unit(s) being utilised. For Southern, for example, the calculation can be affected by the huge variety in how many coaches' length must be walked, if the same crew are also turning round, and as changing ends on most multiple unit stock should be a relatively simple process (providing no faults are found), little time is sometimes left to actually set up the unit. But, of course, the minimum times are often extended by maintaining a clockface timetable, or pathing requirements at junctions en-route, and so on. Local geography also has effects - if a line which is partially double (plus...) track is ended with a single line section, turnarounds could be shorter in the peaks if a higher frequency of trains is required on that single line, so dwells must be as short as possible.

I have been able to turn around a short train (say 2 or 3 coaches) at a small or unstaffed station in a couple of minutes before, but a longer train of 10 or 12 coaches might require 5 or more at the barest minimum, just for everything to be in the right place. And this is Southern region stuff, where most trains either have no catering or just a trolley which can be loaded very quickly with a ramp. Add in time for cleaning a longer train in situ at a station, or adding water to the tanks, and you'll be looking at a couple of minutes on top, assuming everything happens simultaneously. I think my record for turning round a 12 coach train at a major terminus, with catering trolley, a full clean and fresh water, and with it set up and ready to go, is around the 8 minute mark; 5 minutes would not be unheard of just to have the train itself ready to go without any cosmetic or facilities needs. Longer distance stock with reservation labels/downloads, a larger crew, more toilets, etc., etc., will need proportionally longer.

 

[Taunton]

Yup, can be under 40 seconds in the peaks, the same at Walthamstow Central nowerdays as well.

The DLR can be less. I've noticed reversals at termini in about 20 seconds. Same crew in and out.

 

[Parallel]

A couple of local services in the West Country have just 2 minutes. One example is 16:23 Exmouth to Barnstaple is timetabled to arrive at 18:12 and then leave again at 18:14.

The 17:13 Bristol Temple Meads - Severn Beach service is scheduled to arrive at 17:53 and leave again at 17:54. Today it left 4 minutes late, after arriving 2 mins down.

 

[bb21]

The DLR can be less. I've noticed reversals at termini in about 20 seconds. Same crew in and out.

Hardly worth shouting about.

40-second turnarounds on LUL would be impressive if it were the same crew in and out, but of course they step back a few trains so the new driver would have already been in position.

The quickest I have experienced was a 4-minute turnaround at St Pancras on a Meridian during disruption in the aftermath of a fatality. Not sure if the same crew (probably not the driver) but still impressive either way.

 

[Nym]

The DLR can be less. I've noticed reversals at termini in about 20 seconds. Same crew in and out.

DLR doesn't have to open up a cab though, auto reversal and you just key on for departure.

If someone on the Victoria Line hasn't shut down in a courteous manner, it will take around 15 - 30 seconds to set the cab up again.

 

[Smod]

I recall that at St. Erth the turnround times on the St.Ives branch can be 1-2 minutes. Can be interesting in the summer with full loads and luggage.

 

[physics34]

there is a 6 minute turnaround at East Grinstead on one of the 12 car services there in the peak..... which is impossible.... 7 1/2 minutes is possible as timed by yours truely.

 

[DasLunatic]

I seem to remember turnarounds at Colchester (and to a lesser extent, Town) for services down the Sunshine Coast are quite quick. RTT states about three to four minutes with the same driver and everything.

 

[Taunton]

I once timed the turnround of a long distance loco-hauled though service on the SBB at the main dead-end Lucerne station in less than 3 minutes. The turnover loco started creeping towards the inbound train the moment it passed the points, which were thrown about 15 seconds after the last carriage passed. I'd watched the slick operations previously, and just chanced to time the one that must have been done in the shortest time. I wondered how long it took to blow up the brakes. I believe they do their brake test on the move, about a minute after departure.

 

[philthetube]

Turnrounds can be quicker if there is a change of crew.

 

[jamesst]

2 minutes for Merseyrail isn't unheard of at Chester if the incoming train is late

 

[PHILIPE]

A couple of local services in the West Country have just 2 minutes. One example is 16:23 Exmouth to Barnstaple is timetabled to arrive at 18:12 and then leave again at 18:14.

The 17:13 Bristol Temple Meads - Severn Beach service is scheduled to arrive at 17:53 and leave again at 17:54. Today it left 4 minutes late, after arriving 2 mins down.

The Severn Beach case shows the difference between WTT and Public Times. WTT times show an arrival time of 1751, which is the normal 3 minutes minimum turn round time for a DMU.

 

[swt class 450]

Quite recently i saw a two coach 171 (171 730) get turned around at Uckfield in about just two minutes as it arrived in very late (typical GTR).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

As yorkie has rightly pointed out the turnround times indicated by public timetables are false as the arrival times are often padded for PPM purposes. In practice the limiting factors tend to be train length, signalling arrangements, crew change (if any) and the exchange of on-train supplies (catering). When I was a guard I found that a 2-car unit, even with the same crew, could be turned round in a little under 2 minutes quite comfortably in the right circumstances. Even at somewhere like Manchester Victoria this was do-able if the platform dispatcher was on the ball.

The idea that turnround times can be minimised with a relief driver being ready and waiting is an interesting one. There's no doubt it happens but IME drivers prefer to exchange a brief word to confirm all is well with the train (and route) and it's difficult for this to happen anywhere other than on the platform. So the relief driver would still need to walk the length of the train.

 

[W230]

What is the shortest turn around in the WTT? More real world...

Presumably it can't be much less than 3 or 4 minutes as immobile/mobilise times are normally a minute or two on diagrams (yes I know it can be done quicker but the questions is the shortest turn around time a train can be given).

We have a few 5 minute turn arounds at Luton I think.

 

[JN114]

I've seen 2 minutes timetabled (WTT) for the Heathrow CTA - T4 shuttle, although those are double manned.