Shortest Sleeper train

[hexagon789]

In the early 1970's I visited Milford Haven where there was a solitary sleeping car in the siding. I presume it was attached to a loco hauled train, although the service was otherwise all DMU.

Went through on a Parcels/Newspaper train that originated in Bristol.

Only 3 or 4 vehicles (there was an additional van to MH Mondays Only), including one sleeper and two seated Mk1s, went all the way to Milford Haven, most of the other vans being shed en route.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Went through on a Parcels/Newspaper train that originated in Bristol.

Only 3 or 4 vehicles (there was an additional van to MH Mondays Only), including one sleeper and two seated Mk1s, went all the way to Milford Haven, most of the other vans being shed en route.

I recall that was the train that was shown as conveying a large number of vans including "SG' in the marshalling circular/circuit working books. Syphon G from GWR days after 30 years the WR still didn't call them GUV.
//
There were also single sleeping cars detached en route - I caught the Paddington - Exeter car dropped off the Penzance once, hadn't had much sleep before being woken by shunting, then turfed out long before the official 09.30.

 

[hexagon789]

I recall that was the train that was shown as conveying a large number of vans including "SG' in the marshalling circular/circuit working books. Syphon G from GWR days after 30 years the WR still didn't call them GUV.
//
There were also single sleeping cars detached en route - I caught the Paddington - Exeter car dropped off the Penzance once, hadn't had much sleep before being woken by shunting, then turfed out long before the official 09.30.

Hmm, it was quite the interesting working

 

[Merle Haggard]

Hmm, it was quite the interesting working

For newspaper traffic mainly - there were very detailed instructions for this traffic, getting the bundles from the different Fleet Street newspapers to the wholesaler waiting at a station. A lot of station staff involved as well. The WR loaded already sorted at Paddington but the LM sorted newspapers en route - getting those big tables in and out at Willesden at the last minute when the C&W carded a GUV.
Sunday News at Padd. was hectic, an HQ clerk could get overtime Sat. night - Sun on loading. You had to be fit

 

[hexagon789]

For newspaper traffic mainly - there were very detailed instructions for this traffic, getting the bundles from the different Fleet Street newspapers to the wholesaler waiting at a station. A lot of station staff involved as well. The WR loaded already sorted at Paddington but the LM sorted newspapers en route - getting those big tables in and out at Willesden at the last minute when the C&W carded a GUV.
Sunday News at Padd. was hectic, an HQ clerk could get overtime Sat. night - Sun on loading. You had to be fit

I like a lot of these newspapers/parcels workings. Many, if not most, conveyed some form of passenger accommodation and often made some interesting through workings.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I like a lot of these newspapers/parcels workings. Many, if not most, conveyed some form of passenger accommodation and often made some interesting through workings.

When I visited the Isle of Wight at the end of steam I caught the overnight Waterloo - Portsmouth which was still steam hauled. Had to walk past about 20 SR Utilities before reaching a very crowded BCK ??? at the front. For a long time I thought that I had travelled on the Portsmouth main line (electrified in the 1930s) by steam until I found that it went via Basingstoke. (and I hadn't noticed).

 

[D6130]

When I visited the Isle of Wight at the end of steam I caught the overnight Waterloo - Portsmouth which was still steam hauled. Had to walk past about 20 SR Utilities before reaching a very crowded BCK ??? at the front. For a long time I thought that I had travelled on the Portsmouth main line (electrified in the 1930s) by steam until I found that it went via Basingstoke. (and I hadn't noticed).

Getting O/T now, but the 03 40 (Sundays) Waterloo-Petersfield news was still steam-hauled until the end of steam in July 1967....booked for a Nine Elms Standard 5. Only one coach and three vans beyond Guildford.

 

[OVS Flatbottom]

Not Britain as such, but there was a sleeper between Dublin and Belfast (113 miles) in the early 20th century - although it was only in one direction (sources don't necessarily agree on which direction) and is sometimes regarded as a couchette service, as the beds were made up on first-class seats. There's an old post of mine about this at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/historical-sleeper-routes.243036/page-4#post-6517335. (Note that, as the vehicles were composites, there would also be less than a full car's worth of berths on each working - although it did run in the same train as a Dublin - Derry/Londonderry or vice versa sleeper between Dublin and Portadown).

I also seem to recall reading somewhere that the original GWR sleepers ran between Paddington and Bristol only, but I can't verify this.

 

[33017]

Went through on a Parcels/Newspaper train that originated in Bristol.

Only 3 or 4 vehicles (there was an additional van to MH Mondays Only), including one sleeper and two seated Mk1s, went all the way to Milford Haven, most of the other vans being shed en route.

No, the 01.10/01.24 (1C02) from Bristol had no sleeper, that was a TPO train (the return of 1C74 19.30 Milford - Bristol). The sleeper worked down on 1C04 00.50 Padd - Milford and returned on 1A09 22.05 Milford - Padd, spending the day in a siding at Milford Haven.

In their latter years, 1C04 / 1A09 were generally only 4 coaches throughout, with a single Mk1 composite sleeper (SLC). The four times I did 1A09 I travelled in W2427, W2430, W2431 & W2435.

 

[hexagon789]

No, the 01.10/01.24 (1C02) from Bristol had no sleeper, that was a TPO train (the return of 1C74 19.30 Milford - Bristol). The sleeper worked down on 1C04 00.50 Padd - Milford and returned on 1A09 22.05 Milford - Padd, spending the day in a siding at Milford Haven.

In their latter years, 1C04 / 1A09 were generally only 4 coaches throughout, with a single Mk1 composite sleeper (SLC). The four times I did 1A09 I travelled in W2427, W2430, W2431 & W2435.

That'll teach me for trusting posts by other individuals without double checking carriage working books myself.

In that case, were 1C04/1A09 exclusively the Milford Haven sleeper or were any portions conveyed/added for other destinations/origins?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I did the Manchester - London sleeper in 1985.

I did the Preston -London sleeper in the same timeframe. The solo sleeping car was kept in the bay platforms on Preston station and attached during the night.

 

[33017]

That'll teach me for trusting posts by other individuals without double checking carriage working books myself.

In that case, were 1C04/1A09 exclusively the Milford Haven sleeper or were any portions conveyed/added for other destinations/origins?

No, it was just a straight out and back. Before 1977 (I think), there were two, with 1C91 01.25 Padd - Swansea also having a sleeper, plus a second train on the up from Milford (possibly not every night). From photo’s I’ve seen, in those days the Milford was a longer train of about load 6/7 with two sleepers, though given I think the second up train ran only a few nights a week (Fri-Sun?), it could just be that was the case on days there was just one train.

The sleeper finished at the end of September 1983 and never went over to Mk3.

 

[hexagon789]

No, it was just a straight out and back. Before 1977 (I think), there were two, with 1C91 01.25 Padd - Swansea also having a sleeper, plus a second train on the up from Milford (possibly not every night). From photo’s I’ve seen, in those days the Milford was a longer train of about load 6/7 with two sleepers, though given I think the second up train ran only a few nights a week (Fri-Sun?), it could just be that was the case on days there was just one train.

The sleeper finished at the end of September 1983 and never went over to Mk3.

Thanks, interesting that it warranted it's own dedicated sleeper train rather than through carriages as I'd previously been given to understand.

Unimaginable now.

 

[Mag_seven]

I did the Preston -London sleeper in the same timeframe. The solo sleeping car was kept in the bay platforms on Preston station and attached during the night.

There was something similar at Carlisle with either one or two sleeper vehicles being attached to one of the (southbound) Anglo Scottish sleepers.

 

[33017]

Thanks, interesting that it warranted it's own dedicated sleeper train rather than through carriages as I'd previously been given to understand.

Unimaginable now.

When it got to Padd, the sleeper was usually shunted into one of the higher numbered platforms so anyone in it could sleep until 07.30. Had 08948 do that the first time I did 1A09, but nothing on my subsequent three trips, though at least one was due to it running a couple of hours late after 37300 rescued 47529 near Uffington. My father did it far more often and had numerous 08s and a couple of 31s do the shunt release. He also once had on it 46018 Swansea - Paddington via Barry, which can’t have been common.

 

[Taunton]

Back in the 1970s (and probably before and after) the Scottish internal sleeper service from Glasgow and from Edinburgh to Inverness had just one composite sleeping car from either Lowland point, combined at Perth. The Scottish Region in fact only had five sleeping cars allocated, and this required four every night, with one spare at Inverness. If they were short they could borrow from the ECML large fleet, but this was regarded as dishonourable and every effort was made, including bringing the spare Inverness car Down South on an afternoon service if one had been failed at the other end, to keep to their own allocation. The train was bulked out by a couple of seated coaches and a considerable number of vans for mail/news/parcels. I wonder if anyone ever got on a berth at Haymarket and off at Waverley.

It was commonly used by Scottish Civil Servants from Glasgow/Edinburgh going to morning meetings in Inverness. A woman colleague there said she would be booked in second class, twin-berth, but as individual women passengers were very rare she always got it to herself in first class style.

 

[Bevan Price]

Back in the 1970s (and probably before and after) the Scottish internal sleeper service from Glasgow and from Edinburgh to Inverness had just one composite sleeping car from either Lowland point, combined at Perth. The Scottish Region in fact only had five sleeping cars allocated, and this required four every night, with one spare at Inverness. If they were short they could borrow from the ECML large fleet, but this was regarded as dishonourable and every effort was made, including bringing the spare Inverness car Down South on an afternoon service if one had been failed at the other end, to keep to their own allocation. The train was bulked out by a couple of seated coaches and a considerable number of vans for mail/news/parcels. I wonder if anyone ever got on a berth at Haymarket and off at Waverley.

It was commonly used by Scottish Civil Servants from Glasgow/Edinburgh going to morning meetings in Inverness. A woman colleague there said she would be booked in second class, twin-berth, but as individual women passengers were very rare she always got it to herself in first class style.

I used the Glasgow - Inverness sleeper a few times whilst on all Line Rovers in the 1970s/80s, and each time there were vacant standard class cabins - just paid the sleeper supplement to the attendant with no need to book in advance. Rarely managed to sleep for the full journey, however.

 

[EYFanatic]

I did the Preston -London sleeper in the same timeframe. The solo sleeping car was kept in the bay platforms on Preston station and attached during the night.

The return service of that was actually the very last regular timetabled steam haulage in the early hours of 4th August 1968 and performed by 45212 after all other services by steam had ended and locos returned to shed. It stayed attached to provide steam heat before running light to the shed later that morning at some point after 8am

 

[marsker]

I'm sure that I've seen something about a Newcastle to Darlington sleeper via the Durham Coast line, which was attached to the main Newcastle to London train that had come via Durham. The photos I've seen showed a Class 31/4 and a couple of sleepers plus a brake vehicle and were from the 70s.
There was also a return working.
Back in the 1960s, there was a full sleeper and sitting train to London via Sunderland. The timetable showed a note that "Sitting passengers from Newcastle are not conveyed beyond Eaglescliffe".

 

[D1511]

No, the 01.10/01.24 (1C02) from Bristol had no sleeper, that was a TPO train (the return of 1C74 19.30 Milford - Bristol). The sleeper worked down on 1C04 00.50 Padd - Milford and returned on 1A09 22.05 Milford - Padd, spending the day in a siding at Milford Haven.

In their latter years, 1C04 / 1A09 were generally only 4 coaches throughout, with a single Mk1 composite sleeper (SLC). The four times I did 1A09 I travelled in W2427, W2430, W2431 & W2435.

1C04 was my sleeping train of choice on my ALRs from 78-82. There were only 3 or 4 passenger coaches by that time, with one of them a SLC. There was often a CK (or BCK possibly) at the front of the passenger consist, where I would be found sound asleep with my ALR visible so the guard didn't need to wake me up! There were 2 BGs at the front behind the loco, but they had disappeared by the time I woke up, but I never found out where they were detached.....so perhaps you can tell me after all these years! (I assumed Swansea)
To be honest, I'd often been asleep on that train for so long that it was going in the opposite direction by the time I woke up - and I also had to ask where a different loco had been attached more than once! I once missed a loco completely between Cardiff and Swansea (37189.....the driver told me when I got off at Haverford W) and briefly wondered if I should count it for haulage before I had even seen it, before it turned up again for me later that same day!
That 00.50 Padd-Milford brings back some fond memories of my adventures as a much younger man on a very different railway...........sigh!

 

[hexagon789]

1C04 was my sleeping train of choice on my ALRs from 78-82. There were only 3 or 4 passenger coaches by that time, with one of them a SLC. There was often a CK (or BCK possibly) at the front of the passenger consist, where I would be found sound asleep with my ALR visible so the guard didn't need to wake me up! There were 2 BGs at the front behind the loco, but they had disappeared by the time I woke up, but I never found out where they were detached.....so perhaps you can tell me after all these years! (I assumed Swansea)
To be honest, I'd often been asleep on that train for so long that it was going in the opposite direction by the time I woke up - and I also had to ask where a different loco had been attached more than once! I once missed a loco completely between Cardiff and Swansea (37189.....the driver told me when I got off at Haverford W) and briefly wondered if I should count it for haulage before I had even seen it, before it turned up again for me later that same day!
That 00.50 Padd-Milford brings back some fond memories of my adventures as a much younger man on a very different railway...........sigh!

This is the entry from the 1978 Western Region passenger train marshalling book:



Don't know whether that answers your question re the BGs.

Hopefully it's of interest anyway

 

[Magdalia]

The King's Cross - Leeds sleeper was a pretty short run distance-wise. The bonus was it reached Leeds quite quickly, but you were allowed to sleep in peace for quite a while before being kicked off! When did this stop running? 1984?

I'm sure that I've seen something about a Newcastle to Darlington sleeper via the Durham Coast line, which was attached to the main Newcastle to London train that had come via Durham. The photos I've seen showed a Class 31/4 and a couple of sleepers plus a brake vehicle and were from the 70s.
There was also a return working.

The Leeds and Sunderland sleepers both finished in May 1983 and were never operated with MarkIII sleeping cars.

The Sunderland sleeper was a portion attached/detached at Darlington.

The Leeds sleeper was complicated. The down working was in a news train that also had a Grimsby portion, dividing at Peterborough. The up working was a portion attached to a sleeper at Doncaster. The Leeds sleeper only ran to/from Kings Cross from 1970, prior to that it ran to/from St Pancras.

 

[Snow1964]

The Brockenhurst - Stirling Motorail trains (nearly 50 years ago) used to have 2 sleeper cars, 2 normal coaches and the open car wagons

 

[D1511]

This is the entry from the 1978 Western Region passenger train marshalling book:

View attachment 200548

Don't know whether that answers your question re the BGs.

Hopefully it's of interest anyway

Thank you! It is! I have some photos of the stock so I'll dig them out when I'm at home at the weekend

 

[81001]

I remember using the Manchester-Euston sleeper in 1987. It did stop en route at least once, possibly Crewe and remember all sorts of activity on the platform involving mail bags. It still got into Euston quite early but you could stay onboard and have a lie in. In our case we had asked for a wake up knock from the attendant so that we could get an early flight from Heathrow to Moscow. Exciting holiday for a 14 year old!

 

[Harvester]

The Leeds and Sunderland sleepers both finished in May 1983 and were never operated with MarkIII sleeping cars.

The Sunderland sleeper was a portion attached/detached at Darlington.

After the Sunderland sleeper finished, a Newcastle-Sunderland-Darlington loco hauled train ran via the coast, 1N03 southbound in the late evening, and 1N04 back early in the morning, connecting with mainline sleepers at Darlington. This working used to produce a wide variety of motive power, with anything spare at Gateshead being commandeered for the job!

 

[EYFanatic]

In our case we had asked for a wake up knock from the attendant so that we could get an early flight from Heathrow to Moscow.

Returning home for a debriefing, Comrade 81001...?

#

Just wondering if there has ever been a sleeper thats gone end to end as just one carriage

 

[D6130]

Returning home for a debriefing, Comrade 81001...?

#

Just wondering if there has ever been a sleeper thats gone end to end as just one carriage

Wouldn't have been possible in the UK, as it would have had to be accompanied by a brake vehicle. On the continent - where just about every passenger vehicle has a handbrake - it may have happened.