Shortage of drivers on GWR

[philthetube]

In short, highly unlikely. The way leave works for the majority of TOC traincrew on the railway is you are told when you are taking the majority of it on an allocated basis each year (although you can swap these blocks with other people if you can find someone who wants your block). Your remaining 'ad-hoc' days you then apply for as and when you want it, but each depot will have a quota of how many people can be off each day. Once that limit is reached, you will be declined. I can't speak for the majority of TOCs, but the ones I have worked for have also all had leave running more in line with the financial year (beginning of April to end of March) or Summer timetable change (beginning of May to end of April).

and usually some flexibility is provided in cases when leave cannot be fit in before the end of the period.

 

[theironroad]

Hendy, who on the TV news looked less than on the ball, ignorantly referred to the GW Paddington to the South West route as the 'West of England' line; this of course being the name for the SWR operated Waterloo to Exeter service.

Was this BBC spotlight or somewhere else.

Generally I think he comes across ok, but his background is buses and now is chairman of network rail so not sure his TOC experience.

Seems he's been appointed to be this Christmas travel tsar and is probably learning a lot as he goes.

Certainly before the commons TSC yesterday he seemed more briefed on Avanti than most tocs but seemed to have more than aware of the GWR issues.

The slip in line name won't resonate with the public who mostly wouldn't compute the error either and tbf is not really a big issue.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hendy, who on the TV news looked less than on the ball, ignorantly referred to the GW Paddington to the South West route as the 'West of England' line; this of course being the name for the SWR operated Waterloo to Exeter service.

That’s splitting the thinnest of hairs. It’s a line to the West of England, of that there is no argument.

 

[Qwerty133]

What a load of rubbish! Union Branch meetings have been moved to Zoom, any Instuctor/Trainee relationship is voluntary and backed up with weekly COVID tests (TOC's wanted just a mask!), and there are limits on how many people can use each messroom. All of this has been led by union initiative.


Where I work has had a positive case in the last couple of months and individuals told to isolate by test and trace app, in one case despite being an Instructor and getting a negative test a couple of days before.

Schools and colleges are closing and kids being sent home because of a positive case in the teaching staff. It's rife all over the country. To even suggest that railway staff are somehow swinging the lead or having secretive meetings (putting their own families at risk) is irresponsible of an MP, and just plain stupid of a Forum member.

Now that the true proportion of staff off isolating is known to be much lower than originally claimed those comments do appear to have been short-sighted, however in the supposed context that was claimed at that time I don't think it was unreasonable to suggest that an outside gathering was a likely culprit of at least some of the spread as it simply isn't realistic, given the level of contact with colleagues that train drivers have, for workplace interactions to cause a 75% absence rate in a singular depot whilst having little impact on the absence rate elsewhere in company.

 

[theironroad]

Now that the true proportion of staff off isolating is known to be much lower than originally claimed those comments do appear to have been short-sighted, however in the supposed context that was claimed at that time I don't think it was unreasonable to suggest that an outside gathering was a likely culprit of at least some of the spread as it simply isn't realistic, given the level of contact with colleagues that train drivers have, for workplace interactions to cause a 75% absence rate in a singular depot whilst having little impact on the absence rate elsewhere in company.

You're alleging there is an outside event attended by multiple drivers, leaving aside you clearly have little idea about the nuances of train crew resourcing.

Produce some evidence!

 

[Sleepy]

I have been told this evening more drivers have tested positive now so I don't think this will be brushed under carpet easily now it's common knowledge ? Surprised ASLEF haven't made any comment yet.

 

[Qwerty133]

You're alleging there is an outside event attended by multiple drivers, leaving aside you clearly have little idea about the nuances of train crew resourcing.

Produce some evidence!

The evidence was the (since debunked) claim that 75% of drivers at one depot were isolating either due to having the virus or having been in prolonged close contact with someone who went on to test positive for it (from symptoms that developed) in the following 48 hours, as there is simply no other reasonable explanation that could explain such a high incidence of cases given the typical level of workplace interaction between drivers and the wider local infection rate.

 

[theironroad]

The evidence was the (since debunked) claim that 75% of drivers at one depot were isolating either due to having the virus or having been in prolonged close contact with someone who went on to test positive for it (from symptoms that developed) in the following 48 hours, as there is simply no other reasonable explanation that could explain such a high incidence of cases given the typical level of workplace interaction between drivers and the wider local infection rate.

There has been no claim that 75% of drivers have tested positive or have had to isolate in accordance with track and trace.

You alleged and c!aimed that an 'outside event' was the cause of the covid cases, yet you refuse to provide any evidence to support that claim.

Please provide details of this event, in particular, the event type, location, date and time and the number of drivers and guards who attended.

This might be a internet forum, but you can't go around throwing allegations for which give no proof.

So either provide proof or withdraw your allegations and apologise.

 

[Ashley Hill]

In Plymouth are XC affected,do they have a similar Covid outbreak?

 

[6Gman]

How do you get to a location, to get a train.... before the first train of the day..

At one time depots with a significant requirement to move people about (e.g. New Street / Saltley / Tyseley) had "staff cars" - so at least there was no interface with the public.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2020 ==

The evidence was the (since debunked) claim that 75% of drivers at one depot were isolating either due to having the virus or having been in prolonged close contact with someone who went on to test positive for it (from symptoms that developed) in the following 48 hours, as there is simply no other reasonable explanation that could explain such a high incidence of cases given the typical level of workplace interaction between drivers and the wider local infection rate.

Where was this claim made?

My understanding was it was said that only 25% of staff were available for duty, which is a completely different matter.

 

[ComUtoR]

To my collegues at GWR I would like to extend well wishes from us here in the Southeast. Working through this pandemic has had a dramatic impact on all our lives and we continue to do our best to ensure the public get to work, meet friends, go for a shop, and generally continue to live their daily lives.

We just tanked a number of Drivers across our network too and the requests for rest day workers and all available staff are pouring in as we speak. Without the continued supoort from railway staff there wouldn't be a service. To those out on the front line I offer my support and thanks. To those having to shield or isolate; my thoughts are with you.

To EVERYONE. Please stay safe and be mindful of others.

 

[northernbelle]

So are you saying that the depots or mess rooms are not Covid compliant? Why should someone be sitting near someone? I thought that there was social distancing at work, limited numbers in rooms and so on?

Should someone be sitting within two metres of someone else for more than 15 minutes (NHS definition of close contact)?

No I'm not saying that. The messrooms have been made as safe as possible - this has included using office space as overflow messrooms to provide extra capacity.

'Covid safe' doesn't eliminate the risk of Covid altogether, rather it minimises the risk. Also allowing for the fact that people are human beings means there's always a chance of transmission when people are nearby.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The evidence was the (since debunked) claim that 75% of drivers at one depot were isolating either due to having the virus or having been in prolonged close contact with someone who went on to test positive for it (from symptoms that developed) in the following 48 hours, as there is simply no other reasonable explanation that could explain such a high incidence of cases given the typical level of workplace interaction between drivers and the wider local infection rate.

But then you'd have to ask the question, given the minimal workplace interaction it is said drivers have meaning transmission between them is slim, then how would such a high percentage of drivers from one depot all have been off work at the same time to have been able to attend such a large gathering in the first place? If the railway couldn't run with the originally alleged 75% of drivers at a depot off work, how did it operate on the day 75% of them were all supposed to be in eachothers' company at said gathering? Not to mention where would they find a venue that'd allow it? Even if they hopped across the border to Cornwall, a limit of 6 exists. But even assuming they found somewhere (maybe one of their mansions?) then sure, there are people on their days off and if it was an evening thing then the early turn could in theory go, but unlikely the majority of early turn folk would I'd've thought. Even if they all wanted to break the Covid rules, a percentage of them would be back in at silly o clock the next morning, and/or just give it a raincheck simply because they've been up since before 3am in the first place. I guess anything is possible, but I'd be very surprised if they had all decided to put themselves, their colleagues and their families at risk. What would the incentive anyway? Get a few trains cancelled and some extra time off work over Christmas, knowing large gatherings are heaven for the virus and a real risk of spending that time off for Christmas ill and in isolation?

Looking at the Government's interactive map, some areas around Plymouth had already been on an upwards trajectory taking them above the England average in the week leading to 12 December.

 

[sw1ller]

Could the reason potentially also be that throughout the year, very few railway staff used up their annual leave allocation, and now the end of the year is near, everybody's trying to use it up before it expires?

It could be yes. That’s what I’ve done unfortunately. Right at the start of this pandemic I saw the opportunity to move my block leave further in the year. I did this a couple of time in the blind hope this wouldn’t get as bad as is now and I could actually do something with my leave. It’s not panned out that way obviously and as more slots were filled up in the run up to Christmas, I’ve had no choice but to put random days in everywhere or risk losing it. I know others have said no but that’s exactly what I’ve done and I know others have too.

 

[Flange Squeal]

It could be yes. That’s what I’ve done unfortunately. Right at the start of this pandemic I saw the opportunity to move my block leave further in the year. I did this a couple of time in the blind hope this wouldn’t get as bad as is now and I could actually do something with my leave. It’s not panned out that way obviously and as more slots were filled up in the run up to Christmas, I’ve had no choice but to put random days in everywhere or risk losing it. I know others have said no but that’s exactly what I’ve done and I know others have too.

No one was saying people aren't taking leave - it was a case of companies probably aren't allowing masses of people to do it well above depot quotas and causing staff shortages as a result.

 

[Qwerty133]

But then you'd have to ask the question, given the minimal workplace interaction it is said drivers have meaning transmission between them is slim, then how would such a high percentage of drivers from one depot all have been off work at the same time to have been able to attend such a large gathering in the first place? If the railway couldn't run with the originally alleged 75% of drivers at a depot off work, how did it operate on the day 75% of them were all supposed to be in eachothers' company at said gathering? Not to mention where would they find a venue that'd allow it? Even if they hopped across the border to Cornwall, a limit of 6 exists. But even assuming they found somewhere (maybe one of their mansions?) then sure, there are people on their days off and if it was an evening thing then the early turn could in theory go, but unlikely the majority of early turn folk would I'd've thought. Even if they all wanted to break the Covid rules, a percentage of them would be back in at silly o clock the next morning, and/or just give it a raincheck simply because they've been up since before 3am in the first place. I guess anything is possible, but I'd be very surprised if they had all decided to put themselves, their colleagues and their families at risk. What would the incentive anyway? Get a few trains cancelled and some extra time off work over Christmas, knowing large gatherings are heaven for the virus and a real risk of spending that time off for Christmas ill and in isolation?

Looking at the Government's interactive map, some areas around Plymouth had already been on an upwards trajectory taking them above the England average in the week leading to 12 December.

Sundays are outside the working week at GWR so a gathering on a Sunday could in theory easily be attended by the majority of those at a depot (and I imagine 50-60% would be sufficient to cause a 75% absence rate if they then went into work on the Monday). It is simply unbelievable that spread within the workplace could wipe out such a high proportion of drivers from one depot without taking out more than a small proportion of drivers from other depots that they interact with on a daily basis or those in other roles (guards, customer hosts) at the same depot, or that it would have taken 9 months for such a major issue to have any effect on the spread of the virus.
As I said now it is clear that the true numbers of isolating are much lower the possibility of an organised meet up being the cause is much more unlikely and almost certainly wasn't the cause, but I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that there have been similar incidents in other professions that have had the same effect so it clearly isn't impossible.

 

[PupCuff]

All of this has been led by union initiative.

Obviously I can't speak for your employer, and experiences may differ there, but certainly in my corner of the railway (and those that I otherwise have sight of) I've been proud to see some of the great things that have been achieved by the train companies and trade unions working together, and whilst the trade unions have undoubtedly provided a great support during these times, it's important to remember that the responsibility for covid-secure operation (and general safety) falls to the management. What's been achieved to make the railway's staff and customers as safe as possible during these times is a joint effort and it comes across as a bit naive to suggest that it has been 'led by union initiative' when the reality is that - certainly for most of the rail industry - as well as the tireless efforts of the trade union reps it's also the tireless effort of management colleagues, who amongst other things I've seen during the pandemic, have been working stupidly long days doing everything from carrying furniture around at depots to making welfare arrangements for colleagues living alone shielding to crawling around on their hands and knees putting down miles of yellow tape for social distancing, have been darting round the networks at short notice to make all the facilities compliant with government covid-secure guidance, having to effectively rewrite training plans so that they can be delivered over zoom or obtain extra accommodation to deliver them socially-distanced, having to cancel leave so that they can attend joint risk assessments and management/trade union working groups, etc etc. All whilst keeping the day job going too!

I've seen managers who've ended up going sick due to the stress of it all, I've had managers on the phone at the end of their tether and I'm talking them down when they've done everything that's been asked of them and through no fault of their own it's changed yet again, I've spent a surprising amount of time with managers who are practically in tears, trying to be a listening ear, because they've worked day and night to get everything to where we need to be and then a member of their team has come up to them and good as told them it's a rubbish effort and they're going to be responsible for their kids dying of covid.

Now's the time we really should be looking and praising the collaborative working between trade unions and train companies which is an area that can often be fraught with disagreements and disputes - it's a fantastic good news story and yes, there's a few isolated hiccups here and there, but on the whole we haven't seen vast swathes of staff catch covid at work, our customers can travel in confidence, and we'll be coming out of this a really resilient industry - and hopefully we'll see the company/union relationship remain as good as it has been recently, and perhaps even mature. It's certainly not an appropriate time to be pushing a 'union leads the way' agenda and if that is genuinely the case at one employer I do hope that folk realise that this is not consistent across the industry.

 

[Sunset route]

So are you saying that the depots or mess rooms are not Covid compliant? Why should someone be sitting near someone? I thought that there was social distancing at work, limited numbers in rooms and so on?

Should someone be sitting within two metres of someone else for more than 15 minutes (NHS definition of close contact)?

Welcome to the world of multiple panel signalling centres, can’t move the panels further apart, can’t use PPE, so just get on with it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Welcome to the world of multiple panel signalling centres, can’t move the panels further apart, can’t use PPE, so just get on with it.

Any particular reason why PPE cant’t be used if so desired - thinking here face masks and disposable gloves?

Not necessarily saying it should be I’m just intrigued by the statement it can’t be used.

 

[21C101]

As most of the services cancelled seem to be the semi fast Paddington to Exeter/Paignton trains, I hope they are adding extra calls to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance services.

If this is a harbringer of things to come, ie if it is those services that will be canned first if there is any disruption, it bodes ill for the success of that service and potential station reopenings at Somerton/Devizes Parkway. Waterloo to Exeter shows the potential for a well run semi fast service.

 

[Sunset route]

Any particular reason why PPE cant’t be used if so desired - thinking here face masks and disposable gloves?

Not necessarily saying it should be I’m just intrigued by the statement it can’t be used.

Because you can’t deliver clear unmuffled safety critical communications through a face mask over the telephone and radio systems.

 

[PHILIPE]

As most of the services cancelled seem to be the semi fast Paddington to Exeter/Paignton trains, I hope they are adding extra calls to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance services.

If this is a harbringer of things to come, ie if it is those services that will be canned first if there is any disruption, it bodes ill for the success of that service and potential station reopenings at Somerton/Devizes Parkway. Waterloo to Exeter shows the potential for a well run semi fast service.

They re calling additionally at stations especially along the Berks and Hants.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As most of the services cancelled seem to be the semi fast Paddington to Exeter/Paignton trains, I hope they are adding extra calls to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance services.

If this is a harbringer of things to come, ie if it is those services that will be canned first if there is any disruption, it bodes ill for the success of that service and potential station reopenings at Somerton/Devizes Parkway. Waterloo to Exeter shows the potential for a well run semi fast service.

As per their website the Pad - Penzance trains are calling additionally at the semi-fast stations.

What else do you suggest when there is a chronic driver shortage due to a pandemic? Start/terminate all services at Reading as per Waterloo to Exeter now terminating at Basingstoke UFN, cancel the Penzance trains?

This is unprecedented times, there simply aren’t enough drivers who aren’t in isolation to run the booked service via Taunton. You have a service the semi-fast that goes half the journey or the Penzance that completes the whole journey, surely much better to have in these dire circumstances a services that covers the full length of the route stopping at all the stations?

 

[175001]

Sounds like there are a lot of kinfe sharpening going on here and in Parliament...

 

[21C101]

Sounds like there are a lot of kinfe sharpening going on here and in Parliament...

Knife (as in personal feuds) or do you mean sharpening axes, as in Beeching?

 

[northernbelle]

As most of the services cancelled seem to be the semi fast Paddington to Exeter/Paignton trains, I hope they are adding extra calls to the Paddington to Plymouth/Penzance services.

If this is a harbringer of things to come, ie if it is those services that will be canned first if there is any disruption, it bodes ill for the success of that service and potential station reopenings at Somerton/Devizes Parkway. Waterloo to Exeter shows the potential for a well run semi fast service.

Is this the same Waterloo - Exeter service that's curtailed at Basingstoke until further notice?

The point being that in extreme times like now, something has to give. Far better to suspend the 5-car semi fast services between Exeter and Paddington and put extra calls in the 9 or 10 car Plymouth/Penzance services.

The reality is that the semi-fast services are much quieter than others and so the overall disruption caused to passengers by cancelling them is reduced when compared with cancelling something else.

 

[21C101]

Is this the same Waterloo - Exeter service that's curtailed at Basingstoke until further notice?

The point being that in extreme times like now, something has to give. Far better to suspend the 5-car semi fast services between Exeter and Paddington and put extra calls in the 9 or 10 car Plymouth/Penzance services.

The reality is that the semi-fast services are much quieter than others and so the overall disruption caused to passengers by cancelling them is reduced when compared with cancelling something else.

There is nothing on the GWR website stating that additional calls have been inserted to replace the six semifasts to Exeter/Paignton that have been caped.Neither can I find anything on Journey planner stating anything about extra calls on mondays Penzance trains, just a general warning of disruption to all trains heading that way.

Looking at todays live situation, yes some calls have been added to some fast trains but not the same calling patterb and less often (especially impacting Newbury).

In contrast the information on SWR is concise and while it is a pain to have to change at Basingstoke, you can still get from London to say Crewkerne hourly at much the same times and much the same duration as now.

 

[PHILIPE]

There is nothing on the GWR website stating that additional calls have been inserted to replace the six semifasts to Exeter/Paignton that have been caped.Neither can I find anything on Journey planner stating anything about extra calls on mondays Penzance trains, just a general warning of disruption to all trains heading that way.

Looking at todays live situation, yes some calls have been added to some fast trains but not the same calling patterb and less often (especially impacting Newbury).

In contrast the information on SWR is concise and while it is a pain to have to change at Basingstoke, you can still get from London to say Crewkerne hourly at much the same times and much the same duration as now.

On Journey Check

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There is nothing on the GWR website stating that additional calls have been inserted to replace the six semifasts to Exeter/Paignton that have been caped.Neither can I find anything on Journey planner stating anything about extra calls on mondays Penzance trains, just a general warning of disruption to all trains heading that way.

Looking at todays live situation, yes some calls have been added to some fast trains but not the same calling patterb and less often (especially impacting Newbury).

In contrast the information on SWR is concise and while it is a pain to have to change at Basingstoke, you can still get from London to say Crewkerne hourly at much the same times and much the same duration as now.

Incorrect it is on their website.

Great Western Railway JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Great Western Railway JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

“If your service has been cancelled, you can use your ticket for travel on an earlier or later train between London Paddington and Plymouth. Additional stops will be put on train services, for Pewsey, Westbury and Castle Cary where the previous cancelled train would have called at these stations”

SWR also, like GWR as you would expect during a global pandemic that evolves on a daily basis have some further ad-hoc changes such as truncated Basingstoke/Exeters being further cancelled between Salisbury and Exeter (09.07 ex BSK and 13.25 return).

Its a constantly changing outlook out there and railway staff are simply doing the best to operate the services they are physically able to.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2020 ==

In contrast the information on SWR is concise and while it is a pain to have to change at Basingstoke, you can still get from London to say Crewkerne hourly at much the same times and much the same duration as now.

Not really - looking at a journey from Crewkerne to London you have about 25 minutes to wait for a connection at Basingstoke and if you normally took the direct service from Crewkerne to Clapham Junction you’d have to change at Basingstoke and again at Woking arriving there some 30 minutes later.

I don’t see any different approach between the two routes. Doing the best they can with the resource available.

 

[northernbelle]

There is nothing on the GWR website stating that additional calls have been inserted to replace the six semifasts to Exeter/Paignton that have been caped.Neither can I find anything on Journey planner stating anything about extra calls on mondays Penzance trains, just a general warning of disruption to all trains heading that way.

Looking at todays live situation, yes some calls have been added to some fast trains but not the same calling patterb and less often (especially impacting Newbury).

In contrast the information on SWR is concise and while it is a pain to have to change at Basingstoke, you can still get from London to say Crewkerne hourly at much the same times and much the same duration as now.

I've just done a journey check for Exeter St Davids to Castle Cary. The 1138, 1340 and 1538 semi fasts are cancelled. The 1215, 1415 and 1614 are making calls as are the 1752 and 1955. Given Newbury has many more London services than Castle Cary, Westbury and Pewsey, the impact of losing the semi fasts is proportionally less than further west.

The situation is fast changing - do you propose advertising the train service for Monday now and then changing it at the last minute as the situation becomes clearer?

The problem has been widely communicated by the company and in the media - given the unpredictability of traincrew availability at the moment I don't think you can expect a perfect world.