Short Platforms - Late On-Board Notice

[Deepgreen]

Yesterday I travelled up to London for a social event. I caught a Thameslink train (one of a dwindling number yesterday!) and changed my plans en route when I saw that there was severe disruption on the Jubilee line. I opted to change at Norwood Junction for a train to Wapping, and I was in the 12th car. As we approached Norwood it dawned on me that p3 may not be a 12 car platform, but there had been no mention of it so far. Only when the train had almost come to a halt did the notice flash up and I dashed through to the 8th car to alight, just in time. Had I been slower I would have missed the stop. Is there any rule about the distance/time from a short platform stop when notice should be given? This one was massively too little notice.

 

[yorkie]

Is there any rule about the distance/time from a short platform stop when notice should be given?

I am not aware of a rule; perhaps each company has it's own policy?

There was a thread posted exactly two years ago:

Doors failed to open

I was travelling on 2S45 from Queenstown Road to Feltham today, a 10 car 458 and the doors failed to open in coach 8 and possibly the whole of the back set at Feltham; they had opened in Hounslow. Passengers were also trying to board pushing the button and waiting at the train doors but they...

www.railforums.co.uk

I posted my experience there:

Some Guards on SWR are like this; I remember being on a 12 car train arriving into Clapham Jn and the short platform was not announced with sufficient notice (or wasn't announced at all, I can't remember now) and passengers who had moved forward were still in the process of alighting when the Guard attempted to close the doors. Passengers used the emergency door release on the rearmost door which had opened, which allowed all the passengers who had moved forward to alight.

 

[The exile]

I got caught out at Snaith several years ago by the guard not announcing that it was local door only. It would have been possible to get off on the return journey from Goole but then I’d have been stuck there all night! It was particularly annoying because, IIRC, the entire train was platformed….

 

[Western 52]

I was on a 9 car class 800 earlier today to Weston-super-Mare. Too long for Nailsea, Yatton and Worle, but no audible announcements or anything on the information screens.

 

[800301]

I was on a 9 car class 800 earlier today to Weston-super-Mare. Too long for Nailsea, Yatton and Worle, but no audible announcements or anything on the information screens.

The 800’s seem to be very hit and miss in regards to automatic announcements, some stations there are announcements and others there are not which thinking about it now may be down to there being many different options of platform length and the train doesn’t know until it’s actually at a stand where it is.

387’s have this problem at Maidenhead and a few other stations where they will announce due to a short platform at the next station only the front 10 or however many coaches will be released which is all good until you end up on down relief where all 12 will open

You also have Langley which only 6 coaches open despite the whole train being able to be platformed

 

[Surreytraveller]

You would have thought with all the technology available, the 700s could announce short platforms earlier than when they're arriving at the station.

 

[skyhigh]

I was on a 9 car class 800 earlier today to Weston-super-Mare. Too long for Nailsea, Yatton and Worle, but no audible announcements or anything on the information screens.

Out of interest, were you in one of the carriages that were platformed?

 

[Purple Train]

387’s have this problem at Maidenhead and a few other stations where they will announce due to a short platform at the next station only the front 10 or however many coaches will be released which is all good until you end up on down relief where all 12 will open

Do all 12 open, though? I think Twyford down relief can take 12 coaches, but the up relief is constrained by the Henley branch, so only the front 8 open (7 on the Elizabeth Line). I'm fairly sure that, on 345s, only the number of doors that can be accommodated on the shortest platform get opened, irrespective of which platform it is, but I don't think I've ever travelled at the rear at Twyford so I'm not sure.

You also have Langley which only 6 coaches open despite the whole train being able to be platformed

I've noticed the sign there: out of interest, why do they only open the front six?

 

[Railcar]

Southern's 377 fleet, when sent out from London Bridge as 10-car, are programmed for short-platform warnings at Norwood Junction. The warnings begin when the train leaves the LBG throat, although NWD is still 15mins awy!

 

[800301]

Do all 12 open, though? I think Twyford down relief can take 12 coaches, but the up relief is constrained by the Henley branch, so only the front 8 open (7 on the Elizabeth Line). I'm fairly sure that, on 345s, only the number of doors that can be accommodated on the shortest platform get opened, irrespective of which platform it is, but I don't think I've ever travelled at the rear at Twyford so I'm not sure.

I've noticed the sign there: out of interest, why do they only open the front six?

Yes, all 12 opened when I served Maindehead on the down relief. All other platforms are 10

Twyford can take a 12 car 387 on all platforms other than up relief platform 4 where SDO is 8 and if SDO fails (which you won't know until you try and release the doors, it will only open the front 7 coaches unless overridden

 

[Towers]

Out of interest, were you in one of the carriages that were platformed?

Indeed; no notification is given unless you are in one of the non-platformed coaches. Assuming the PIS was working and the stops were being announced, it would be unusual for the short platform information not have been provided within the relevant coaches.

 

[GW43125]

I've found a similar issue on GWR when heading to Newquay, no announcements or anything at Paddington (I come from Wessex land where it's announced ad nauseum both on station and train!), suddenly about 3 minutes from Par "front 6". Not ideal with a big suitcase!

 

[RetroCrowe]

Recently, I travelled to Tal-y-Cafn on the Conwy Valley Line and had a similar experience. I was at the very rear door of a 2-car 197 when the thought occurred to me that I'd best move forwards because it's only a small single platform station, although not a request stop for the service I was on, as only northbound services stop on request. No announcement or warning had been given about the rear door not opening, but I moved forwards anyway just in case - and lo and behold, the rear door that I was originally standing at was off the platform edge and didn't open.

Somewhat concerning given that if I'd missed this stop, I would've been forced to wait at Dolgarrog or North Llanrwst for nearly two hours before I could get the next train into Tal-y-Cafn, and then three more hours after that for the next train back to Llandudno Junction.

The only reason I avoided this situation was because I was somewhat familiar with the station - someone visiting for the first time would've been caught out if they attempted to leave through the rear door, and likely wouldn't have time to move forward given the short (~45 second) dwell time.

 

[izvor]

Only when the train had almost come to a halt did the notice flash up

You would have thought with all the technology available, the 700s could announce short platforms earlier than when they're arriving at the station.

I've observed it seems to be standard practice across Thameslink. Not good enough, and with DOO no guards/OBSs to give "manual" announcements either.

 

[Deepgreen]

You would have thought with all the technology available, the 700s could announce short platforms earlier than when they're arriving at the station.

Technology and the railway seems to be a very variable marriage! Take the 700s, for example - they have fancy weight-based loading indicators but don't even have cab-front destination screens that can be read in any level of daylight! Automated annoucements should be hugely reliable, but they are actually very prone to being messed up by a variety of issues. It would be so good to have a focus on reliable and useful passenger information, cleaning up the current general shambles.

 

[Parallel]

I’ve found GWR’s IET stock to advise regarding short platforms for carriages quite reliably in carriages that are not to be platformed, but they do only announce this when leaving the preceding station, which in some cases, is not a lot of time.

GWR station PA is very hit and miss though, with some stations programmed in, and others not. E.g. no short platform announcements are made for Bedwyn at stations.

It reminds me of when Bristol Parkway was closed for engineering, GWR IET services called at Patchway instead. TfW stations do not show or announce short platforms, and by the time you leave Newport, you can’t get into the front 5 coaches due to no gangway. Passengers were overcarried to Reading, which was the next stop following Patchway.

Really, short platforms being announced at stations and on trains should be mandatory. And in good time, e.g. for on board, after departing key hub stations, as well as the preceding stop.

 

[ollie_hunt1660]

I've found a similar issue on GWR when heading to Newquay, no announcements or anything at Paddington (I come from Wessex land where it's announced ad nauseum both on station and train!), suddenly about 3 minutes from Par "front 6". Not ideal with a big suitcase!

Do GW guards not inform passengers about short platforms throughout the journey, I myself, also come from Wessex land and even if the announcements are working, the guard will make short platforms well known.

 

[seaviewer]

Yesterday I travelled up to London for a social event. I caught a Thameslink train (one of a dwindling number yesterday!) and changed my plans en route when I saw that there was severe disruption on the Jubilee line. I opted to change at Norwood Junction for a train to Wapping, and I was in the 12th car. As we approached Norwood it dawned on me that p3 may not be a 12 car platform, but there had been no mention of it so far. Only when the train had almost come to a halt did the notice flash up and I dashed through to the 8th car to alight, just in time. Had I been slower I would have missed the stop. Is there any rule about the distance/time from a short platform stop when notice should be given? This one was massively too little notice.

I can sympathise with the first poster. I often must change at Norwood Junction to get from East Croydon to Forest Hill, which is irksome, but that's another story. I notice that Southern trains generally seem to tell you about the short platforms, but that doesn't happen on Thameslink (no OBS?). Just to add insult to injury, you are then deposited on platform 3 and must negotiate the steep stairs down to the subway and back to platform 1.
In the reverse direction, things are a bit more straightforward as the train to East Croydon generally uses the same platform (5) as the arriving Overground train. But now and again the signaller decides we need exercise and switches the connecting train to platform 6 - usually with minimal notice. This necessitates another dash down to the subway and back.

 

[westcoaster]

Yesterday I travelled up to London for a social event. I caught a Thameslink train (one of a dwindling number yesterday!) and changed my plans en route when I saw that there was severe disruption on the Jubilee line. I opted to change at Norwood Junction for a train to Wapping, and I was in the 12th car. As we approached Norwood it dawned on me that p3 may not be a 12 car platform, but there had been no mention of it so far. Only when the train had almost come to a halt did the notice flash up and I dashed through to the 8th car to alight, just in time. Had I been slower I would have missed the stop. Is there any rule about the distance/time from a short platform stop when notice should be given? This one was massively too little notice.

Norwood junction is sdo 10 on the fasts, so 10 coaches will open.

 

[philthetube]

Recently, I travelled to Tal-y-Cafn on the Conwy Valley Line and had a similar experience. I was at the very rear door of a 2-car 197 when the thought occurred to me that I'd best move forwards because it's only a small single platform station, although not a request stop for the service I was on, as only northbound services stop on request. No announcement or warning had been given about the rear door not opening, but I moved forwards anyway just in case - and lo and behold, the rear door that I was originally standing at was off the platform edge and didn't open.

Somewhat concerning given that if I'd missed this stop, I would've been forced to wait at Dolgarrog or North Llanrwst for nearly two hours before I could get the next train into Tal-y-Cafn, and then three more hours after that for the next train back to Llandudno Junction.

The only reason I avoided this situation was because I was somewhat familiar with the station - someone visiting for the first time would've been caught out if they attempted to leave through the rear door, and likely wouldn't have time to move forward given the short (~45 second) dwell time.

Quite possible in this case that the guard was watching down the train from the middle watching for people preparing to exit.

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm fairly sure that, on 345s, only the number of doors that can be accommodated on the shortest platform get opened, irrespective of which platform it is, but I don't think I've ever travelled at the rear at Twyford so I'm not sure.

I have made two peak time journeys out towards Shenfield recently. Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park all have short platforms. I saw people miss all three stops on both trips. This must be happening on every train all through the evening peak. At peak time, there is no chance of squeezing through the crowds. To make matters worse, the 8th coach is next to the platform at Forest Gate or Manor Park; I forget which.

 

[greaterangrier]

I have made two peak time journeys out towards Shenfield recently. Maryland, Forest Gate and Manor Park all have short platforms. I saw people miss all three stops on both trips. This must be happening on every train all through the evening peak. At peak time, there is no chance of squeezing through the crowds. To make matters worse, the 8th coach is next to the platform at Forest Gate or Manor Park; I forget which.

The number of doors opened at each does vary though - 7 & a certain amount of coach 8 depending on platform iirc

 

[flitwickbeds]

This happens regularly to me at Harlington too. When sitting in declassified first class there is literally time to get up from your seat and walk quite quickly down to the eighth carriage, and nothing else. Anyone with mobility issues, who doesn't hear/understand the message, or might have some stuff to pack away first, would almost certainly miss the stop.

 

[Bikeman78]

This happens regularly to me at Harlington too. When sitting in declassified first class there is literally time to get up from your seat and walk quite quickly down to the eighth carriage, and nothing else. Anyone with mobility issues, who doesn't hear/understand the message, or might have some stuff to pack away first, would almost certainly miss the stop.

This is the sort of thing where a station announcement would be helpful. In my example above, people at Stratford need to be told not to board the ninth coach if they want Manor Park. There is little chance of moving forward once on board a crush loaded train.

 

[flitwickbeds]

This is the sort of thing where a station announcement would be helpful. In my example above, people at Stratford need to be told not to board the ninth coach if they want Manor Park. There is little chance of moving forward once on board a crush loaded train.

Sorry, a crucial detail I missed is this only happens when the train is routed into platform 4. Platforms 1, 2 and 3 all take 12 cars but 4 doesn't. I guess the auto announcement only happens once the train passes the final junction and platform 4 is committed, which is shortly before the station.

 

[Bikeman78]

Sorry, a crucial detail I missed is this only happens when the train is routed into platform 4. Platforms 1, 2 and 3 all take 12 cars but 4 doesn't. I guess the auto announcement only happens once the train passes the final junction and platform 4 is committed, which is shortly before the station.

Does the system work off balises? I don't see how else it could know which platform it was arriving at. But you have highlighted a potential problem, i.e. a train is normally fully platformed but gets diverted to a short platform at late notice. To be fair, there aren't many locations where this could happen, and the obvious solution is that the trains waits slightly longer than normal at the platform to allow people to walk forward.

 

[Krokodil]

Recently, I travelled to Tal-y-Cafn on the Conwy Valley Line and had a similar experience. I was at the very rear door of a 2-car 197 when the thought occurred to me that I'd best move forwards because it's only a small single platform station, although not a request stop for the service I was on, as only northbound services stop on request. No announcement or warning had been given about the rear door not opening

An auto announcement should have played "please move forward to leave the train". Where was the guard?

Somewhat concerning given that if I'd missed this stop, I would've been forced to wait at Dolgarrog or North Llanrwst for nearly two hours before I could get the next train into Tal-y-Cafn, and then three more hours after that for the next train back to Llandudno Junction.

Well you wouldn't have ended up stuck at Dolgarrog. If only because the same door is off of the platform there too.

 

[RetroCrowe]

An auto announcement should have played "please move forward to leave the train". Where was the guard?

There was definitely no auto announcement on this occasion, I'm quite certain of that, although I have since passed through TLC twice and both times, there was an auto announcement.

I can't recall where the guard was exactly, I didn't see him whilst onboard (from Llandudno Junction to Tal-y-Cafn), the only time I saw him was when I got off at TLC.