Short Distance Loco Swaps

[RichmondCommu]

Hi everyone,

The recent purchase of Rail Enthusiast magazine July 1983 has rewarded me with some excellent articles. This included an account of the York to Shrewsbury TPO and the loco swap at Stockport which saw 45022 leave the train and 86235 take the train on to Crewe. Which beggars belief as of course the class 86 had to be relieved at Crewe for obvious reasons.

Can anyone offer an explanation for this? For what it's worth 47434 took over at Crewe. Can anyone think of similar examples?

Thanks for reading this.

 

[30907]

I'd hazard a guess that it allowed the diesels to work out and back. Back then I would imagine there were plenty of electrics spare in the small hours.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'd hazard a guess that it allowed the diesels to work out and back. Back then I would imagine there were plenty of electrics spare in the small hours.

I understand the reason for wanting to get the Peak back to the NE but why couldn't the class 47 have taken over at Stockport? It's hard to think of a corresponding train that could have taken the class 86 back to Stockport.

 

[Bevan Price]

Hi everyone,

The recent purchase of Rail Enthusiast magazine July 1983 has rewarded me with some excellent articles. This included an account of the York to Shrewsbury TPO and the loco swap at Stockport which saw 45022 leave the train and 86235 take the train on to Crewe. Which beggars belief as of course the class 86 had to be relieved at Crewe for obvious reasons.

Can anyone offer an explanation for this? For what it's worth 47434 took over at Crewe. Can anyone think of similar examples?

Thanks for reading this.

In the early years of electrification, it was common practice to minimise running diesels "under the wires". When Liverpool/Manchester to West Country trains mostly ran via Hereford, it was not unknown in the mid 1960s to have loco changes at Shrewsbury (42 or 47 to 40), then again at Crewe (40 to electric). That may in part have been due to lack of traction knowledge by drivers...
It may also have been a hangover from the steam era.

 

[alistairlees]

Leeds to Bradford interchange (9.75 miles!) and vice versa was often a different loco from the one on the main long-distance run for inter-regional expresses from Bradford to Paignton, Penzance, Plymouth, Poole etc.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I understand the reason for wanting to get the Peak back to the NE but why couldn't the class 47 couldn't have taken over at Stockport? It's hard to come up with a corresponding move that could have returned the class 86 to Stockport

Leeds to Bradford interchange (9.75 miles!) and vice versa was often a different loco from the one on the main long-distance run for inter-regional expresses from Bradford to Paignton, Penzance, Plymouth, Poole etc.

Thanks for this. I'm curious to know whether haulage was steam or diesel?

 

[Taunton]

Midlands to Weston-Super-Mare excursions etc often were planned to change locos at Bristol TM for the last 20 miles, they needed to change crews anyway because the Midlands crew didn't know the route beyond, and their locos were not fitted with GWR-style AWS. It wasn't universal, because if Bristol was short of power the new crew were just expected to "be careful", but it did get tightened up on.

As the fuel tanks on the diesel hydraulics were not large, they needed to go on shed to refuel once if not twice during the day. Trains from Paddington etc to Paignton would run through, but if the loco then took a return working it would only be to Newton Abbot, changing locos there and going on shed to refuel while a fully serviced one took over. Paddington to Penzance services likewise often changed locos one direction or the other at Plymouth.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Midlands to Weston-Super-Mare excursions etc often were planned to change locos at Bristol TM for the last 20 miles, they needed to change crews anyway because the Midlands crew didn't know the route beyond, and their locos were not fitted with GWR-style AWS. It wasn't universal, because if Bristol was short of power the new crew were just expected to "be careful", but it did get tightened up on.

As the fuel tanks on the diesel hydraulics were not large, they needed to go on shed to refuel once if not twice during the day. Trains from Paddington etc to Paignton would run through, but if the loco then took a return working it would only be to Newton Abbot, changing locos there and going on shed to refuel while a fully serviced one took over. Paddington to Penzance services likewise often changed locos one direction or the other at Plymouth.

Terrific stuff. I'm curious to know why the hydraulics had a limited fuel capacity?

 

[xotGD]

The Fort William overnight used to have a plethora of loco swaps between Mossend Yard and departure from Glasgow QS.

 

[transmanche]

I remember travelling on the Cambrian Coast Express quite a few times in the 1980s. It was hauled by an electric loco from Euston to Wolverhampton, where it was swapped for a class 47 for the 29-mile run to Shrewsbury. As the train needed to reverse at Shrewsbury, the class 47 was detached whist a class 37 loco (possibly a pair of class 37s) was attached at the other end.

 

[alistairlees]

Thanks for this. I'm curious to know whether haulage was steam or diesel?

Diesel. I’m not that old. This was the 1980s.

 

[Taunton]

Terrific stuff. I'm curious to know why the hydraulics had a limited fuel capacity?

Not really regarded as a limitation then, it was better range than steam locos had. And not only the hydraulics - the ECML had a refuelling point right at Kings Cross station, on the west side by the platform ends, where the Deltics etc went to refuel between runs - after electrification it became the station car park, and now has offices built on it. Fuel tanks were normally under the frame, in whatever space was available between the bogies, but in pre-ETH days only half this space was available, the other half was needed for the water tank for the train heating boiler (which of course also needed refilling). After steam heating was finally given up one of the modifications was fitting new fuel tanks of double or more the original capacity in this space.

 

[30907]

I understand the reason for wanting to get the Peak back to the NE but why couldn't the class 47 have taken over at Stockport? It's hard to think of a corresponding train that could have taken the class 86 back to Stockport.

The trains crossed between Stockport and Crewe. Not knowing crew and loco diagrams and route knowledge, I can't say more, but Bevan Price's point about locos under the wires is important!

On Bradford Interchange - running-round in Leeds would have been a nightmare, hence fresh engines; it's a 70s station, so diesel, but the same comment would have applied to Bradford Exchange (and Forster Square) before that.

 

[eastdyke]

Specifically the York-Shrewsbury TPO, an old thread from RMweb with recollections of the service, locos and diagrams:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/21331-york-shrewsbury-tpo/
In particular:

From memory 1E24 was 2250 Shrewsbury-York and was a 47/4 off a Euston - Salop. The York stock was shunted into the station and was worked as far as Crewe by the 47. There were a number of BGs and TPO vehicles and generally 1 SK. All the times I rode it the electric loco forward from Crewe to Stockport and vice versa, was an 86.
1M41 2230 York -Shrewsbury was an ER boilered kickout from York shed. In the early 1980s period that I rode it, the loco was anything from a 31 to a deltic, but mostly a peak. The ER diesel came off at Stockport and returned to York on 1E24.
A balancing 47/4 worked 1M41 from Crewe to Salop, and then I think became the loco to work the Up train to Euston, as far as Wolverhampton.

 

[maycli]

In the days of the old Heysham-Belfast Irish Sea ferry the boat trains would run into Morecambe Promenade station and the train would then be taken on to the port by another much smaller engine if I recall correctly.

 

[Bishopstone]

After Cambridge was electrified, from Liverpool Street, I recall the Kings Lynn expresses changed from 86 to 47 there for a short period, until the 365 units started and the fast service was transferred to Kings Cross.

To me, this seemed a relatively short run to bother with an intermediate loco change, rather than using a Stratford 47 throughout.

 

[Bevan Price]

Leeds to Bradford interchange (9.75 miles!) and vice versa was often a different loco from the one on the main long-distance run for inter-regional expresses from Bradford to Paignton, Penzance, Plymouth, Poole etc.

curlcurlimp said: ↑
Thanks for this. I'm curious to know whether haulage was steam or diesel?

(Next sentence by alistairlees):
Diesel. I’m not that old. This was the 1980s.

Diesel. I’m not that old. This was the 1980s.

Steam was used on some trains until 1967 - and often only part of the trains ran between Leeds & Bradford (both Exchange & Forster Square).
Later replaced by Class 24s then by 31s, with some dedicated ETH-fitted 31s after AirCon stock was introduced.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Preston/Blackpool diesel for London-Blackpool trains after the WCML was electrified.
And wasn't there a Glasgow/Blackpool summer SO service in the 70s/80s, which had a new loco for Preston/Blackpool?

Would this count? A southbound cross-country service at Sheffield in the 80s had a short portion from Leeds (I think), which was shunted out of the bay at Sheffield and onto the back of a Newcastle(?) portion by the station pilot, an 08. So if you caught it from Leeds, you had one loco for the Leeds-Sheffield stretch, another for a few hundred yards in Sheffield, and then a third onwards.

And going slightly off-topic, my first railtour, the Spotter Special in 1980, had 2x25s from Birmingham New St. They promptly gave up the ghost just round the corner near Washwood Heath. They were swapped with a 45, summoned from Saltley I presume, to take the train forwards.

 

[alistairlees]

And going slightly off-topic, my first railtour, the Spotter Special in 1980, had 2x25s from Birmingham New St. They promptly gave up the ghost just round the corner near Washwood Heath. They were swapped with a 45, summoned from Saltley I presume, to take the train forwards.

The rats got slightly further: https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/800329pr.
Not much further though!

 

[alistairlees]

Would this count? A southbound cross-country service at Sheffield in the 80s had a short portion from Leeds (I think), which was shunted out of the bay at Sheffield and onto the back of a Newcastle(?) portion by the station pilot, an 08. So if you caught it from Leeds, you had one loco for the Leeds-Sheffield stretch, another for a few hundred yards in Sheffield, and then a third onwards.

That was the Leeds / Newcastle to Poole. Slightly later in the 1980s (from 1984?) the Leeds / Hull to Brighton did the same at Sheffield.

 

[Bevan Price]

That was the Leeds / Newcastle to Poole. Slightly later in the 1980s (from 1984?) the Leeds / Hull to Brighton did the same at Sheffield.

And sometimes, the Sheffield station staff ensuring that nobody got on the Leeds portion just to "bash" the Class 08 shunt move.........

 

[randyrippley]

don' forget Weymouth Quay..........03 shunters hauling the boat train through the town

 

[Cowley]

don' forget Weymouth Quay..........03 shunters hauling the boat train through the town

That’s a great shout RR. I’d love to have experienced that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I understand the reason for wanting to get the Peak back to the NE but why couldn't the class 47 have taken over at Stockport? It's hard to think of a corresponding train that could have taken the class 86 back to Stockport.

But it was certainly a productive way to swap electric locos between Longsight and Crewe for maintenance, etc. I think the official diagrams also included work on the portions of the Liverpool/Manchester-Euston sleeper. On the same route for many years the 1715ish Cardiff-Manchester swapped diesel for electric at Crewe.

The old summer Saturday Glasgow QS-Scarborough was another odd one. Loco swap at Edinburgh where the forward loco would shunt on additional coaches and arrived in York's centre-roads where the loco sometimes ran-round but a new loco could also be provided. Deltics on the main ECML stretch were very common but rarely went through to Scarborough: I suspect fuel range was the limiting factor depending on what the loco had done prior to departing Waverley.

 

[eastwestdivide]

The rats got slightly further: https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/80s/800329pr.
Not much further though!

Hmm, I distinctly remember the train failing on the Birmingham side of the M6, as we were sat stationary within sight of the various sidings there. It's possible the 25s then struggled on to Water Orton for the loco change, but that's not how I remember it. Might have the notes somewhere.