Short Changed at Cardiff

[ValleyLines142]

Evening all,

My friend boarded the 1107 Cadoxton to Cardiff service yesterday (5th May), and wanted to buy a Child Day Return at £2.35. The conductor didn't come round on the journey so she went to the unpaid fares box once she'd got off the train at Cardiff Central and bought her ticket there. It wasn't until she exited the barriers at Cardiff that she realised the ticket seller had short-changed her by £2; she had only received £5.65 change from a £10 note instead of £7.65.

She has only just told me during a conversation that it happened, but I was just wondering whether there was anything we could do to get all of the full change back? In fairness, it is entirely fair to say that she should have ensured she had the correct change given to her at the time of purchasing her ticket, but even so in this day and age it should be correct anyway; admittedly mistakes happen, I suppose.

Of course, by complaining, she obviously has no proof as to prove she was short-changed, but she has kept the Return portion of her ticket, if this is of any help?

If it was over 20p say, then fair enough, but £2 is quite a lot.

Any advice on here, both positive and negative, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much!

 

[Chapeltom]

Evening all,

My friend boarded the 1107 Cadoxton to Cardiff service yesterday (5th May), and wanted to buy a Child Day Return at £2.35. The conductor didn't come round on the journey so she went to the unpaid fares box once she'd got off the train at Cardiff Central and bought her ticket there. It wasn't until she exited the barriers at Cardiff that she realised the ticket seller had short-changed her by £2; she had only received £5.65 change from a £10 note instead of £7.65.

She has only just told me during a conversation that it happened, but I was just wondering whether there was anything we could do to get all of the full change back? In fairness, it is entirely fair to say that she should have ensured she had the correct change given to her at the time of purchasing her ticket, but even so in this day and age it should be correct anyway; admittedly mistakes happen, I suppose.

Of course, by complaining, she obviously has no proof as to prove she was short-changed, but she has kept the Return portion of her ticket, if this is of any help?

If it was over 20p say, then fair enough, but £2 is quite a lot.

Any advice on here, both positive and negative, would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much!

Personally for £2.00 I'd write it off and check the change before leaving in future, this is coming from a person (i.e. me) who can get in a sulk about losing 10p.

 

[GadgetMan]

If it really bugs you, contact the TOC who run the unpaid fares booth telling them the date and time your friend was short changed. If the clerk hasn't made any other errors on that shift then they will have paid in a £2 surplus which should be accounted for on their shift sheet.

 

[Realfish]

Personally for £2.00 I'd write it off and check the change before leaving in future, this is coming from a person (i.e. me) who can get in a sulk about losing 10p.

For £2 I agree. Mistakes happen.

This does remind me of a journey many years ago from Glasgow to Edinburgh though. Paying at Central the ticket clerk counted my change out including a £5 and £10 note - I only got the Fiver - he expertly palmed the £10 note - only letting me have it when I refused to leave his position.

My diary reminds me it was the 21st November 1986

 

[ValleyLines142]

Thanks for the replies both. I'll get in touch with my friend and see what she wants to do.

 

[TGVDUDE]

Same thing happened to me at central during the Easter holiday, I was in a rush and annoyed that the entire Maesteg train had to use the unpaid fares counter so didn't check my change!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Same thing happened to me at central during the Easter holiday, I was in a rush and annoyed that the entire Maesteg train had to use the unpaid fares counter so didn't check my change!

It is pretty bad. And people say you should check the correct change; well one isn't going to hold the queue up and check they've got the right change, or go back in a whopper of a queue!

 

[Flamingo]

Check your change before leaving the counter is the only advice that can really be offered. I wouldn't see much point in complaining at this stage, at the end of the day the time & effort involved would probably be more than the £2 involved.

 

[455driver]

Please check your change as mistakes cannot be rectified later!

Sums it up really.

 

[tsr]

NRCoC Condition 21 states that:

As soon as you can, you should check that the details shown on the ticket are consistent with the journey you intend to make and that you have received the correct change. If you think a mistake has been made you should tell the person who sold you the ticket as soon as possible.

"As soon as possible" is quite ambiguous, and I feel that your friend would technically be entitled to a refund as soon as they noticed the error, given this was within a reasonable timeframe of (in this specific case) the time taken to leave the station.

Due to the fact that this is over £2, though, I totally agree with other posters that in practice this was probably not worth worrying about at the time, and certainly isn't worth bothering with now. If your friend felt that the member of staff has been deliberately devious, she may wish to fire off a quick email to the TOC, but if she feels it was probably an honest mistake, there's not much that is really worth doing.

This is one of the reasons why I always try to pay by card, even for low-priced tickets!

 

[jon0844]

Paying at Central the ticket clerk counted my change out including a £5 and £10 note - I only got the Fiver - he expertly palmed the £10 note - only letting me have it when I refused to leave his position.

My diary reminds me it was the 21st November 1986

Wow. There's making a simple and honest mistake, or blatant theft!!

If your friend felt that the member of staff has been deliberately devious, she may wish to fire off a quick email to the TOC, but if she feels it was probably an honest mistake, there's not much that is really worth doing.

It can't do any harm to do this, but acknowledge it could have been an honest mistake and you're not accusing anyone of deliberately short changing you - simply that it happened. Why? Because that member of staff might have had other accusations made which will prompt an investigation.

That's about all you can do. I doubt the TOC would ever let you know the outcome (nor should they).

In such a case, you may even find the TOC gives you something (e.g. voucher) as a goodwill gesture, but I certainly wouldn't ask for anything.

 

[pinguini]

Have you contacted the press about this incident?

 

[jb]

Have you contacted the press about this incident?

I think "this" might need a bit of clarification, but nonetheless I doubt the presses are going to be stopped either for a possible £2 short change incident recently, or an apparent short-change that wasn't in the end, over 25 years ago.

 

[jon0844]

I hope the only story worthy of going to the press about was a member of railway staff showing your change then sneakily keeping hold of some of it when passing it over - as against the £2 shortfall.

Not even the Daily Mail could create a worthy story of outrage over that.

In all seriousness, just send an email to the TOC saying what happened and see what they reply with. Chances are they'll apologise and maybe offer some rail vouchers or something as a goodwill gesture. And if they link this to other complaints, your email might possibly help others in the future. If not, nothing lost. No harm done. Nobody loses their job and life goes on.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I probably would have gone back and mentioned it considering I once following a guard down a 150 to get around 20p back (he charged me for an anytime ticket when I should have been sold an off peak ticket - he didn't even know off peak tickets with a 16-25 railcard discount existed which was a bit worrying!).
But I guess when it comes to change, you will have a much more difficult job (in my case I had the anytime ticket that he sold me, and my phone showing the off peak price).

 

[High Dyke]

Wow. There's making a simple and honest mistake, or blatant theft!!

That reminds me of the incident we had in an Icelandic bank in February. We handed over £100 to exchange but got back the equivalent of £200 in Icelandic Krona. We realised the error when we got outside, and initially thought f*** it...let's go. However conscience got the better of us and we went back in to rectify the clerks error. Needless to say she was most grateful.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Thank you for the replies all.

Yes, it is fair to say she should have ensured she had the correct change given, although of course this means holding up an already long queue! Which can be awkward!

She has emailed them so we shall see what they say. Worst we can get is a nothing we can do about it.

I shall let you know the outcome; I imagine she'll get a response by the end of the week! I'd laugh now if she got given a free First Class All Line Rover as compensation!

 

[IanD]

Have you contacted the press about this incident?

You forgot to put the irony symbol at the end of your post :roll:

I think "this" might need a bit of clarification, but nonetheless I doubt the presses are going to be stopped either for a possible £2 short change incident recently, or an apparent short-change that wasn't in the end, over 25 years ago.

 

[arabianights]

I disagree with everyone saying that you should give this up for the simple reason that (as I have learned in the last few days from this forum - not being a fare evader nor associating with people who would accidentally have problems with fares) the TOCs are being utterly disgraceful in their persecution of decent people for honest mistakes. Indeed, true justice would mean that you could take them to magistrates court and give them a £15 victims' surcharge

That said, on the assumption that your friend is a fifteen (or younger) year old girl (I am assumign that rather than her being an adult buying a child ticket because no adult would care about two hundred pence other than for the principle) I wouldn't be surprised if they try to fob her off - is this something where you can "take over" from her if necessary? Cause it may come to that but a fifteen year old is just as entitled to a refund as anyone else.

Oh one other thing - Are you sure she doesn't have a hole in her trousers or purse or whatever?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Cause it may come to that but a fifteen year old is just as entitled to a refund as anyone else.

Exactly so!

Oh one other thing - Are you sure she doesn't have a hole in her trousers or purse or whatever?

No, she didn't. But a good point nonetheless. She's also very wise for a 15 year old; she has the mind of a 40 year old!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi all,

My friend received an email this morning. With all due respect, it is absolute garbage.

Dear Miss Andrew,

Thank you for your e-mail in which you bring to my attention that having purchased your ticket at the excess fares window at Cardiff Central that you were shortchanged.
Please accept my apologies as I have now checked with our Passenger Accounts department who confirm that when the operator cashed up at the end of the shift the amount of cash in the till balanced with that expected from ticket sales.

Had the clerk shortchanged you, we would have expected the amount of cash in the till to be in credit by the amount you feel you were missing. As this was not the case, I must assume that you were given the correct change on this occasion.

Please accept my apologies if this was not the response you were expecting and if I can be of any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact me again.

I know previous posters have said to let it go over £2, but now she feels like an idiot as she will now 'lose' (if you can put this into winning and losing) this case. She really isn't happy as a student isn't made of money and for a TOC to not be able to subtract £2.35 from £10 is absurd and really something that my friend should not be at the tail end of.

How on earth can the amount of cash in the till balance with that expected from the ticket sales? I am gobsmacked.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[IanD]

Exactly so!



No, she didn't. But a good point nonetheless. She's also very wise for a 15 year old; she has the mind of a 40 year old!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi all,

My friend received an email this morning. With all due respect, it is absolute garbage.



I know previous posters have said to let it go over £2, but now she feels like an idiot as she will now 'lose' (if you can put this into winning and losing) this case. She really isn't happy as a student isn't made of money and for a TOC to not be able to subtract £2.35 from £10 is absurd and really something that my friend should not be at the tail end of.

How on earth can the amount of cash in the till balance with that expected from the ticket sales? I am gobsmacked.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

Maybe he overchanged a few people as well.

 

[jon0844]

How on earth can the amount of cash in the till balance with that expected from the ticket sales? I am gobsmacked.

Maybe they didn't even check, as it would have been a lot of work for the sake of £2.

Or they checked the wrong till.. Who knows?

It's a shame that this was their response, but there's really no point doing anything more for such a small amount (probably not even for a larger amount, unless you opted to ask for proof/records of the accounting).

 

[ValleyLines142]

Maybe he overchanged a few people as well.

Yeah, I thought the shame. Shame they can't add up!!

Maybe they didn't even check, as it would have been a lot of work for the sake of £2.

Or they checked the wrong till.. Who knows?

It's a shame that this was their response, but there's really no point doing anything more for such a small amount (probably not even for a larger amount, unless you opted to ask for proof/records of the accounting).

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking the other day though, she has now effectively been charged an Anytime Adult Day Return (£4.50). If this was the other way around, i.e. she was 16 trying to get away with a child fare, this would be fare evasion and, in extreme circumstances, could ultimately involve the police! So is it really fare that they've done it the other way around?

Also, that extra £2 would also have almost covered her next journey, as she made the same journey a few days after (luckily, she was given the correct change, otherwise she'd have the rung the police!! )

It's a tricky one. We both feel like fools as we've lost money, when they say we haven't. Frustrating is not the word!!

As I said before, 20p or 30p extra, fair enough, we'd let it go. But not at £2. That's a HUGE mistake to make.

 

[aleph_0]

I can't see anything factually wrong with the response. If things add up (maybe another passenger was given too much change), there's not much more to say. I would hope it would also feed into any internal monitoring systems, but they can't and shouldn't comment on that.

I would have thought it would have been good business practice to give £2 in Rail Travel Vouchers as a gesture of goodwill nonetheless, but that's up to them.

 

[jon0844]

At the very least, if any further complaints come in later on, it might just prompt a more detailed investigation - another benefit of having taken the time to email them.

 

[trentside]

Maybe they didn't even check, as it would have been a lot of work for the sake of £2.

I'm sure they did check, such data can easily be recalled using internal systems and will show totals for the shift plus any surplus or loss. At the TOC I work for, clerks receive regular audit reports on these factors, and any other errors on which they need to improve.

Unfortunately, I think you'll just have to chalk this one up to experience. You can't prove anything definitively, it's amazing how many customers accidentally leave change on the counter - sometimes quite a lot. It won't necessarily end up back in the office either, as the next customer will see it and pick it up. From ATWs perspective, if the clerk balanced, it could very easily be a case that your friend failed to pick up the £2 or dropped it.

 

[silencio]

But just because a till balanced does not mean your friend wasn't short changed. If a clerk was going to purposefully short change your friend they wouldn't leave the money in the till at the end of the night would they?

However I guess there is no proof of what happened to the £2 (short changed, lost etc...) and unfortunately not really much more you can do in this situation.

 

[bb21]

Like others said, you'll have to unfortunately let this one go. It's your word against theirs so for the sake of £2, not worth all the additional effort.

 

[IanD]

£2 is £2 and as long as it isn't costing anything too pursue it via email then I'd keep at it.

 

[bb21]

£2 is £2 and as long as it isn't costing anything too pursue it via email then I'd keep at it.

Time is money. The time spent on drafting the email, the time taken to consult people on here, etc, plus all the stress and emotional involvement.

There are many things you can't even quantify.

Of course if the OP wants to pursue it I am in no position to say, "No, you can't". But the way this matter has panned out it will probably take a lot more effort than an email to resolve if he wants his £2 back.