Shelved Plans re Selhurst Triangle Bottleneck

[themeone]

Burnham says he will "look again" at the shelved plans to resolve the Selhurst Triangle bottleneck north of Croydon. Sutton Guardian Article

Andy Burnham has vowed to get the Croydon rail bottleneck plans "back on track" after it was hit by major delays due to the pandemic.

The Prime Minister addressed the stalled plans, also known as the Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme (CARS), which aims to tackle the long-standing bottleneck around East Croydon and Windmill Bridge Junction.

 

[zwk500]

Something needs to be done, but whether we will see the full CARS scheme with all it's grade separation must be a bet with very long odds. Unless there's a large pot of investment coming from somewhere very unexpected.

 

[Magdalia]

This was the PM answering a question from a local MP at PMQs last Wednesday. It is already being discussed in relation to Gatwick expansion see here, starting at #173:

How will Gatwick station cope with a second runway?

Then have to think why do trains to/from Gatwick still terminate at places like Reading, Southampton, Bedford if there are lots of journeys from beyond. The only reasonable answer is historic. No, the answer is reliability. Extending trains over a longer distance serves no real purpose...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[physics34]

Spend the money on electrifying the uckfield line, the north downs and the marsh link instead.

If all current coastal to london trains were 12 coaches not many being 8, the reigates were 8 or more (platform expansion needed), bring back the missing hourly train via worthing to London, reinstate the Cat/Tat to Vic peak trains and the Gat Ex stopped at Croydon and Clapham, that would increase capacity hugely.

 

[NSE]

Spend the money on electrifying the uckfield line, the north downs and the marsh link instead.

If all current coastal to london trains were 12 coaches not many being 8, the reigates were 8 or more (platform expansion needed), bring back the missing hourly train via worthing to London, reinstate the Cat/Tat to Vic peak trains and the Gat Ex stopped at Croydon and Clapham, that would increase capacity hugely.

There isn’t the capacity to extend all coastal trains to 12 coaches. Also, what’s the hourly Worthing one missing? Littlehampton is back up to 2tph, giving Worthing half hourly to London.

Personally I’d rather see the Victoria - Brighton fasts bought back every half hour.

 

[SynthD]

If all current coastal to london trains were 12 coaches not many being 8, the reigates were 8 or more (platform expansion needed), bring back the missing hourly train via worthing to London, reinstate the Cat/Tat to Vic peak trains and the Gat Ex stopped at Croydon and Clapham, that would increase capacity hugely.

The Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme is needed for that wishlist, you have listed half of the plausible benefits.

 

[Magdalia]

Spend the money on electrifying the uckfield line, the north downs and the marsh link instead.

Which money? The project was paused in 2022 and it has not been allocated any money since.

Brighton Main Line upgrade proposals - Network Rail

In 2018, we brought forward proposals to deliver faster, more reliable services and improved connections on the Brighton Main Line and the lines that feed into it.

www.networkrail.co.uk

The Brighton Mainline Upgrade Programme, which comprise the Croydon Area Remodelling Scheme (CARS), Norwood Junction station improvements and a third platform at Reigate was paused in 2022 at Outline Business Case stage by the previous government. No further development work has taken place since this point, and the programme is not currently funded.

There are currently no plans to apply for any planning consents (such as a Transport and Works Act Order). Or undertake any associated compulsory land purchases.

 

[London Trains]

There isn’t the capacity to extend all coastal trains to 12 coaches. Also, what’s the hourly Worthing one missing? Littlehampton is back up to 2tph, giving Worthing half hourly to London.

Personally I’d rather see the Victoria - Brighton fasts bought back every half hour.

In what way isn't there enough capacity to extend them to 12 coaches?

The Brighton fasts can't return in their old path as the Eastbourne services took its path when the Eastbourne and Littlehampton services stopped splitting/joining at Haywards Heath, but I agree that the Brighton fasts should return, by getting rid of the scam that is the Gatwick Express, and replacing it with a Southern service that calls at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath.

 

[NSE]

In what way isn't there enough capacity to extend them to 12 coaches?

The Brighton fasts can't return in their old path as the Eastbourne services took its path when the Eastbourne and Littlehampton services stopped splitting/joining at Haywards Heath, but I agree that the Brighton fasts should return, by getting rid of the scam that is the Gatwick Express, and replacing it with a Southern service that calls at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath.

Just not enough units for the services to all be 12 coaches.

No, i’m aware the path is gone but I’d still like to see them back haha.

 

[cle]

The Brighton fasts can't return in their old path as the Eastbourne services took its path when the Eastbourne and Littlehampton services stopped splitting/joining at Haywards Heath, but I agree that the Brighton fasts should return, by getting rid of the scam that is the Gatwick Express, and replacing it with a Southern service that calls at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath.

From the HH / Brighton POV, this exists via Gatwick Express today. It just needs those calls, or at least Clapham.

 

[alf]

A Clapham stop can be very time costly. Can easily be 2 to 3 mins stationary.....Seriously reduces line capacity.
A train following from Victoria cannot leave just 2 mins after a non stop Gatwick express without an extended time from Victoria to Croydon due to stopping outside Clapham for a free platform. . Same vice versa & there is the marketing downside of longer journey time to be balanced againt the door to door appeal of one’s car.

 

[edwin_m]

Just not enough units for the services to all be 12 coaches.

Buying more units, adding depot capacity and perhaps some power supply strengthening, is a lot quicker and a lot cheaper than re-building Selhurst. And need doing anyway, to take advantage of whatever capacity re-building Selhurst would create!

 

[London Trains]

Just not enough units for the services to all be 12 coaches.

No, i’m aware the path is gone but I’d still like to see them back haha.

I agree that there aren't enough units for everything to be 12 coaches, but there is certainly scope for a lot more services than now to be 12 coaches, as there are a lot of units which only work one or two services in the peaks and go back to the depot/sidings for most of the day.

Not using 6 units (assuming they are 8 coaches) on pointless GatEx Gatwick shuttles from December would go a long way to strengthening services too.

I also don't see any reason why everything can't be 12 coaches on Saturdays, as there are a lot of units used on peak extras which are spare at the weekend - 6 units from the London Bridge to Coastway peak extras, 7 units from the peak time Gatwick portions of the Reigate services, 6 units from the Norwood Junction to London Bridge peak extras, and quite a few more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2026 ==

From the HH / Brighton POV, this exists via Gatwick Express today. It just needs those calls, or at least Clapham.

Yes exactly, effectively I'm just suggesting to "rebrand" the service to Southern and add Clapham Junction and East Croydon stops.

 

[NSE]

I agree that there aren't enough units for everything to be 12 coaches, but there is certainly scope for a lot more services than now to be 12 coaches, as there are a lot of units which only work one or two services in the peaks and go back to the depot/sidings for most of the day.

Not using 6 units (assuming they are 8 coaches) on pointless GatEx Gatwick shuttles from December would go a long way to strengthening services too.

I also don't see any reason why everything can't be 12 coaches on Saturdays, as there are a lot of units used on peak extras which are spare at the weekend - 6 units from the London Bridge to Coastway peak extras, 7 units from the peak time Gatwick portions of the Reigate services, 6 units from the Norwood Junction to London Bridge peak extras, and quite a few more.

I don’t disagree you could extend more, however it isn’t as easy as it sounds. You’d need to shuffle around diagrams to get the units attached and so on. Doable yes, but not necessarily easy.

 

[Class15]

A Clapham stop can be very time costly. Can easily be 2 to 3 mins stationary.....Seriously reduces line capacity.
A train following from Victoria cannot leave just 2 mins after a non stop Gatwick express without an extended time from Victoria to Croydon due to stopping outside Clapham for a free platform. . Same vice versa & there is the marketing downside of longer journey time to be balanced againt the door to door appeal of one’s car.

Just make the GatEx departure from victoria a couple of minutes earlier - in order to run non-stop I assume there’s a longer gap there than if both call at Clapham?

 

[cle]

Same vice versa & there is the marketing downside of longer journey time to be balanced againt the door to door appeal of one’s car.

The car is not a credible competitor on any journeys which involve Clapham Junction or Victoria/Central London, and Croydon, Gatwick, Brighton. It just isn't. It's not like the MML/M1, for instance.

And my POV here is that we could afford to lose a path by evenning out intervals (to enable Clapham / EC calls for every service) - we might lose 1 path per hour total, which is probably still more useful and utilitarian than 2tph mostly empty Gatwick Express passing through.

 

[renegademaster]

Just not enough units for the services to all be 12 coaches.

No, i’m aware the path is gone but I’d still like to see them back haha.

Both are unlikely but surely it's cheaper than remodelling selhurst though?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 16:16 ==

The car is not a credible competitor on any journeys which involve Clapham Junction or Victoria/Central London, and Croydon, Gatwick, Brighton. It just isn't. It's not like the MML/M1, for instance.

And my POV here is that we could afford to lose a path by evenning out intervals (to enable Clapham / EC calls for every service) - we might lose 1 path per hour total, which is probably still more useful and utilitarian than 2tph mostly empty Gatwick Express passing through.

People certainly drive Croydon to Brighton

 

[zwk500]

People certainly drive Croydon to Brighton

Comparatively few though, the M23 between Junction 8 (for M25) and 7 (where it dumps on to the A23) has an Annual Average Daily Flow (AADF) of just over 30,000.

In comparison the M1 at Scratchwood/London Gateway services has an AADF above 66,000 for last year, the M4 just east of the Heathrow junction 136,000, the M40 at j1 97,000, the M3 between j2 and 1, 62,000. The A20 at the London Boundary 48,000, A2 just west of the M25 102,000, The M11 just inside the M25 88,000.

(Count points available here: https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/count-points)

 

[Class15]

Comparatively few though, the M23 between Junction 8 (for M25) and 7 (where it dumps on to the A23) has an AADF of just over 30,000.

In comparison the M1 at Scratchwood/London Gateway services has an AADF above 66,000 for last year, the M4 just east of the Heathrow junction 136,000, the M40 at j1 97,000, the M3 between j2 and 1, 62,000. The A20 at the London Boundary 48,000, A2 just west of the M25 102,000, The M11 just inside the M25 88,000.

(Count points available here: https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/count-points)

I had no idea what AADF meant before researching it. Can we please clarify such quotes?

 

[zwk500]

I had no idea what AADF meant before researching it. Can we please clarify such quotes?

Apologies, edited appropriately,

 

[London Trains]

The car is not a credible competitor on any journeys which involve Clapham Junction or Victoria/Central London, and Croydon, Gatwick, Brighton. It just isn't. It's not like the MML/M1, for instance.

The car absolutely is a competitor for journeys between Clapham Junction and Brighton, as most of these journeys are originating from various places in South West London and Surrey.

Not having a direct service between Clapham Junction and Brighton, especially with the increases in leisure travel seen post-Covid and the popularity of Brighton as a destination from South London and Surrey is absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Transilien]

Not having a direct service between Clapham Junction and Brighton, especially with the increases in leisure travel seen post-Covid and the popularity of Brighton as a destination from South London and Surrey is absolutely ludicrous.

It really is ludicrous, how long has this been the case?

 

[Electrostar387]

It really is ludicrous, how long has this been the case?

I miss the days of the London Victoria > Clapham Junction > East Croydon > Brighton services; were loved by Brightonians and Londoners alike for not being clogged up with Gatwick Airport traffic. Alas, since the remodelling of Gatwick Airport and the reduction in speed from 90mph running through on the fast lines at GTW, hard to imagine these services coming back.

Given how busy Clapham Junction is, I agree there's definitely an argument for reinstating a direct Clapham Junction to Brighton service of some kind, however!

 

[London Trains]

It really is ludicrous, how long has this been the case?

I believe it was 2020 when the direct service was removed, when the Eastbourne/Ore and Littlehampton services stopped splitting/joining at Haywards Heath and the Eastbourne services took the path of the xx25/55 Victoria to Brighton Southern service.

 

[JonathanH]

I believe it was 2020 when the direct service was removed, when the Eastbourne/Ore and Littlehampton services stopped splitting/joining at Haywards Heath and the Eastbourne services took the path of the xx25/55 Victoria to Brighton Southern service.

It should not be overlooked that this was a positive move for passengers on the two coastway routes, even if it severed the link between south London and Brighton.

 

[London Trains]

It should not be overlooked that this was a positive move for passengers on the two coastway routes, even if it severed the link between south London and Brighton.

Absolutely, I don't think I've seen anyone arguing against this change.

Where the issue lies is that there is a half empty, overpriced service that runs non-stop through Clapham Junction and East Croydon, whilst the Eastbourne, Littlehampton and Portsmouth/Bognor Regis services are rammed full and often leave people behind, and the Clapham Junction to Brighton link has been severed. Converting the Gatwick Express to a Southern service with stops at Clapham Junction and East Croydon would solve so many problems at very little cost.

 

[Class15]

Absolutely, I don't think I've seen anyone arguing against this change.

Where the issue lies is that there is a half empty, overpriced service that runs non-stop through Clapham Junction and East Croydon, whilst the Eastbourne, Littlehampton and Portsmouth/Bognor Regis services are rammed full and often leave people behind, and the Clapham Junction to Brighton link has been severed. Converting the Gatwick Express to a Southern service with stops at Clapham Junction and East Croydon would solve so many problems at very little cost.

Genuine question: why east Croydon? I think just Clapham would be great in my opinion, don’t overload the trains with East Croydon passengers but provide the connections. East Croydon to Brighton has direct trains.

 

[London Trains]

Genuine question: why east Croydon? I think just Clapham would be great in my opinion, don’t overload the trains with East Croydon passengers but provide the connections. East Croydon to Brighton has direct trains.

I was just thinking about reducing the number of East Croydon passengers on all the other services, but it definitely isn't a necessity given East Croydon already has 4tph to Brighton and 10tph to Victoria.

 

[PGAT]

Genuine question: why east Croydon? I think just Clapham would be great in my opinion, don’t overload the trains with East Croydon passengers but provide the connections. East Croydon to Brighton has direct trains.

Skipping East Croydon has negligible savings due to congestion around the area and generally lower speed limits. So if you’re stopping at Clapham you may as well stop at East Croydon as well.

 

[zwk500]

Genuine question: why east Croydon? I think just Clapham would be great in my opinion, don’t overload the trains with East Croydon passengers but provide the connections. East Croydon to Brighton has direct trains.

The thameslink trains are very busy with people to the intermediate stations. Offering direct Brighton passengers the option for a faster, less crowded service that eases a small amount of pressure on Thameslink is a sensible idea.

Then add in East Croydon's connectivity, it's role as a destination (lots of offices around East Croydon Station) and the relatively low penalty for stopping, then the case for blasting straight through is much reduced.