Sheffield to Folkestone via HS1 query

[BravoGolfMike]

Hi all. My old man is travelling to Folkestone from Sheffield this week, we have found him some good prices on a senior railcard but I am worried there will be a HS1 premium to pay which he will be unaware of. The routing online specifically says Sheff - St. P, 40ish min connection, St. P to Folkestone calling Ebbesfleet, Ashford etc so clearly it's a 395 service, is any premium already covered in the ticket price or is he going to get stung onboard? Not really sure how it works. Thanks in advance.

 

[yorkie]

It's a myth. There is no premium. The only tickets that aren't valid on HS1 are those routed "Not HS1", it's no different to any other route in the country in that providing it's a permitted route then any appropriate ticket is valid on it, in accordance with the usual rules.

There are no tickets routed "Not HS1" as far north as Sheffield. The cheaper fares to avoid HS1 are not available this far North, only in the South East area, in which case a small supplement is payable. It's not an issue at all from places like Sheffield as there is no cheaper "Not HS1" option available.

The DfT are to blame for this myth, as I understand it was either their idea or they would have approved it (I'm not sure which) to have the confusing "Plus High Speed" routeing. There should be no such routeing and all tickets that include High Speed should simply be re-routed "Any Permitted" as with any other route. I did hear on the grapevine there were plans to do this, I am not sure if it's still the case. It causes so much confusion as gateline staff sometimes give people hassle incorrectly and some passengers think that there is a premium to pay when there isn't. SET's poor publicity must also take some of the blame.

 

[BravoGolfMike]

Thanks for that super fast response, much appreciated and mind at rest now

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for that super fast response, much appreciated and mind at rest now

No problem He won't be stung for the £3.45 upgrade I'm sure, and in the incredibly unlikely event that an incorrectly trained member of staff did apply the upgrade I would help in any way I can to get it fully refunded (although the amount is low, it's the principle of the thing!) and it would also give me a good excuse to ask SET to train some of their staff better.

It's a simple change at St Pancras [[stn]STP[/stn]] though although both trains will be on the upper level, you do have to go down an escalator and back up the other side. However if the interchange time is around 40 minutes then there is a possibility of getting an earlier train from STP to Ashford if he's lucky with the connection!

Note that if it's an Advance ticket, then on the way back, an earlier connection would not be possible as he'd need to stick to the booked (ie, reserved) train from St Pancras to Sheffield.

 

[BravoGolfMike]

Thanks, it is an advance ticket so I guess it's advertised trains only. Managed to get it for about £52 return which after all the publicity about "fares rocketing" we thought was pretty amazing, decent train times as well. It wasn't really the cost of a premium that concerned me, just the fact that one might exist and him not expecting it. I wittered on about how easy and cheap it could be on the train compared to driving (he regularly drives it and hates it) so I am hoping for a smooth trouble free journey!

 

[Mintona]

If he's travelling on a peak arrival or departure at St. Pancras (07.00-09.59/16.00-18.59) with an advance ticket then a high speed upgrade is chargeable.

 

[tannedfrog]

A Super Off Peak return with Railcard discount is £66.45 via Chesterfield, ie not much more than the advance tickets

 

[hantsman1205]

Just be aware you can get mega train/EMT tickets from £1 plus a 50 pence booking fee from St Pancras to Sheffield..........lots of times,


Of course you need to get from Folkstone to St Pancras first.

 

[yorkie]

If sticking to the itinerary, it is not possible for an upgrade to be charged and would not be applicable.

It is true that there is a block on Advance tickets being used via HS1 at certain times, at these times Advance tickets are still available via the 'classic' route (ie via Tonbridge). The booking engines simply won't give an itinerary via HS1. Now how enforceable the HS1 supplements are when someone travels via HS1 instead, is a debatable matter that I would prefer not to get into! But if you have an itinerary and stick to it, no-one can charge you any extra, as the booking engines will take everything into account and the itinerary is evidence of a contract.

 

[craigwilson]

If sticking to the itinerary, it is not possible for an upgrade to be charged and would not be applicable.

It is true that there is a block on Advance tickets being used via HS1 at certain times, at these times Advance tickets are still available via the 'classic' route (ie via Tonbridge). The booking engines simply won't give an itinerary via HS1.

Such as restriction VV that I've come accross for Margate - Manchester VT Advances that I might wish to buy...

If he's travelling on a peak arrival or departure at St. Pancras (07.00-09.59/16.00-18.59) with an advance ticket then a high speed upgrade is chargeable.

Where is this written down? In the absence of anything concrete I really doubt that's enforcable, and I'd personally go with yorkie's opinion on this one (bolded below).

Now how enforceable the HS1 supplements are when someone travels via HS1 instead, is a debatable matter that I would prefer not to get into! But if you have an itinerary and stick to it, no-one can charge you any extra, as the booking engines will take everything into account and the itinerary is evidence of a contract.

 

[Mintona]

Such as restriction VV that I've come accross for Margate - Manchester VT Advances that I might wish to buy...



Where is this written down? In the absence of anything concrete I really doubt that's enforcable, and I'd personally go with yorkie's opinion on this one (bolded below).

I don't know where it's written down, but I know it is correct. However, what yorkie says is also correct - if you have your itinerary then it will have booked you on a valid train.

 

[barrykas]

Where is this written down? In the absence of anything concrete I really doubt that's enforcable, and I'd personally go with yorkie's opinion on this one (bolded below).

It's in the validity text...An example of which for this particular route can be found here.

Restrictions apply on connecting trains from Kent into London St Pancras International and vice versa via line High Speed 1 (HS1) on Mondays to Fridays as follows:

Not valid on HS1 trains timed to arrive in London St Pancras International 09:58 or earlier; and:

Not valid on HS1 trains timed to depart London St Pancras International between 16:00 and 18:59 inclusive.

Again, how enforceable that is remains to be seen...

 

[extendedpaul]

I travel regularly between Caerphilly and Rainham (Kent) and the journey planner has never offered advance tickets on HS1 arrivals at Rainham between 17.14 and 19.47. This restriction has often led me to travel earlier or later than I would have wished.

I have just tried searching "via Victoria" and can get cheap advance fares throughout the evening peak. Also on the reverse journey I can leave earlier in the morning by going that way rather than St Pancras Int on HS1.

This will help me a lot in future - journey time is less than 10 minutes more - but why does a basic search not offer that option ? I would never have found this out without reading here today !

 

[Paul Kelly]

This will help me a lot in future - journey time is less than 10 minutes more - but why does a basic search not offer that option ? I would never have found this out without reading here today !

Online journey planners plan based on fastest journey time and then show the fares available on the itineraries that comes up with. There is definitely a gap in the market for a ticket retailing website that plans itineraries based on the cheapest fares instead of the fastest journey time!

 

[calc7]

Online journey planners plan based on fastest journey time and then show the fares available on the itineraries that comes up with. There is definitely a gap in the market for a ticket retailing website that plans itineraries based on the cheapest fares instead of the fastest journey time!

Are you sure? I'd love to see one but can't see it getting high value transactions and could be marred by negative publicity "it sent me on a 3-hour 150-mile detour to save £2!!!"

 

[maniacmartin]

It'd be like Trainscanbecheaper maybe?

London to York? Let's send you via some Merseyrail Pacers to save a few pennies...

 

[Paul Kelly]

Well, I didn't mean using cost as the only criterion! It would need to offer alternative options and make the trade-offs clear...

 

[island]

If he's travelling on a peak arrival or departure at St. Pancras (07.00-09.59/16.00-18.59) with an advance ticket then a high speed upgrade is chargeable.

I don't think that's correct. A restriction buried deeply on a few websites says that travel is barred. If that is enforceable (which is questionable) then travel is barred and no upgrade can allow it. If not, then travel is permitted.

 

[dzug2]

If he's travelling on a peak arrival or departure at St. Pancras (07.00-09.59/16.00-18.59) with an advance ticket then a high speed upgrade is chargeable.

Sounds more likely that the tickets are not valid at all connecting in those hours - ie it's a peak hour restriction, not an HS1 one as such

 

[island]

No, the restriction refers to a bar on morning peak up HS1 services and evening peak down HS1 services, at the times previously mentioned.